fulton the country and secondly the armed forces of the country must be you know must their loyalty to the government must be in question none of those conditions it seems to me in the ukraine prove that the government does retain a considerable amount of support in the country especially in the eastern and southern regions which are industrialised we've seen that in the ukraine in kiev itself only a minority a very small minority of people are involved in all of this was the security forces are clearly normal to the government and carrying out its orders so i don't think this is a civil war situation i think this is an attempted revolution which is failing and failing disastrously which is increasing polarization in the country which may create more problems in the future but an immediate risk of civil war i don't think so. alexander my christian expert on international law thank you very much indeed

for sharing your views with us and right now. several people have died as until government protests in the ukrainian capital go out go into a fourth consecutive day this is the latest with a whole new level of violence and police have told down barricades that block in central kiev and chased down rises and the retaliation of protesters has been equally as forceful. is there for us right now joining us now live from kiev alex a wall tie you seeing way you are now what's going on that. it's in fact it's very hard to see anything particularly the police lines right now because the rioters are burning tires that the whole area here it's pretty much go over it in a black mortgage still very down here despite not being out there and there's some very short while ago which you have are all where you've gone already. assaults on

the right just a chance to force them off the governmental quarter they have been partially successful every time they push to the riaa and. it's back to the in the. pan and square. like take a jelly win or don't report i hope you can hear me right now the the protesters are particular infuriated with messages about the. role riot act is being killed and they believe they were killed by the police although that's not confirmation of what led to their deaths there are reports or speculation that it was done by bullet wounds but it's not not clear what kind of bullets were used what does rather go to or live around this is not clarified what you see right now is pretty much a deadlock standstill situation but as a very short while ago a little older than an hour ago this is what i saw with my own eyes the first wave

of police attacks in the report which i filed have a look at that. so this is yet another attempt by the police to push the protesters off the governmental quarter they've just started moving as we can see they're covering themselves with shields the protesters the rioters are running back but they still throwing rocks at the police it is very violent here we see that flash bangs are being exploded. from time to time although the police are not resorting to any kind of special means so far they haven't even use flash bangs or non-lethal non-lethal assistance from afar as we could see over here they've been waiting basically for hours for several hours before attempting another another go at the protesters we also heard earlier from the prime minister of ukraine who said that all those rioting in the. central

kiev are considered to be terrorists and we also heard from the some of the officials from behind the barricades from the police lines who've been saying that . they will use force if needed and this is the case as we can see right now from our vantage point. the past the police are now in full in full swing to get the protesters who are still feeling rocks and and move the cocktails at them. we can see this literally maybe several hundred policemen. and. they're also as we can hear banging their shields to give a proper psychological effect so that the protest is maybe more scared but now we can see there are no protesters remaining at the scene of the riots which has been the scene on the right for the past four days already that said the protesters have been pushed off from the governmental quarter several police lines and can see the

one police line the other police line they're now securing the perimeter no major violence as we could see no. major violence from the police in fact i would say no violence from the police at all very dramatic scenes in the death of the police that is the students are again thanking their shields. to say whether this is for psychological effect or what they're celebrating the fact that they have pushed the protesters the rioters off the square we can see the cops the police are not advancing to the independence square which is literally two hundred meters away from here they're not advancing they're just basically what they're doing they're securing this ground here that the governmental quarter pushed the rioters from the scene and what they're doing the just securing it here now so they're quick clearly they're not intending to disperse the big protests the protests that the independence square the one which has been existing for several months already there we have rocks flying at the plant at the police again the protesters there.

actors are back our back as we can see and there can also see another wounded person being carried it is getting violent again although this time it's quite clear that the violence is coming from the protesters from the rioters not from the police the police is merely protecting themselves we can see a moment of cocktail there on the ground as well. again most of cocktails are being thrown rocks are being thrown that the police. so this is look this looks like yet another yet another retreat by the police. and the protesters are demanding again the rioters are bringing tires probably they will burn them and hurt them at the police like they've done on several occasions already. they're charging they're charging again at the police as we can see throwing rocks all the time.

the situation is still very. weak there sitting. here just the smell of burning guy right if the clear where this is going going to much money with. my. very. great how do you have the opportunity. to take part. whether they be of the mark or the broken. come. your. picture is very unstable that aussies aleksei your shots came reporting that live from kiev and i say thank you very much indeed for that update weapons shade and let's not hear more from historian mark almond he joins us now live in oxford to on and to welcome so we've seen a rise in the nationalism during these riots in kiev can be madrid opposition do anything to control the more extreme elements once the crisis is that. well

we will have to see i suspect the problem is that the so-called moderate opposition is rather wanted something of this sort if we think about why the orange revolution went wrong in two thousand and four and five it was precisely that the mass protests were peaceful they led to a rerun of elections. last he lost very narrow and he remained a viable political player with a very large body of support and one of course the elections in two thousand and ten. so for the opponents of janak over the recognition that if you simply force fresh elections you don't fundamentally change the political system they want to marginalize and relegate you on a covert action his part to the regions his supporters so you need to a known constitutional revolution remember one of the opposition television stations is now headlined river the revolution station so for instance we're talking klitschko has spoken with the folks. when he talks in english german to the

beach he talks about the need for peaceful protests the need for fresh elections but he then says to his own supporters is like. if you say that the president of ukraine is like duffy what are you saying you're saying he's a dictator who should be lynched as gadhafi was in two thousand so there is the danger that in fact the extreme right that does exist the extreme nationalist and indeed in nazi elements are actually in a sense serving the political purpose of the apparently moderate leaders when they speak to the western media that is to say they want to overthrow the existing state they don't trust elections because they fear even if they win elections there's a sufficiently big body of support. that his political movement will survive and come back again as it did after the failures of. the infighting amongst the leaders then. and we're seeing that nationalist parties and movements are a big part of the process they seem to be allied with the liberals could they share

power with the current leadership. well of course this is a this is a dangerous situation i think myself that the so-called liberals and moderates are playing with fire they want collapse again approaches government. revolution of assault they of course they want to glide safely into the presidential office into the prime minister's office and into the seats of power but of course they will have depended upon the heavy more these extreme nationalists from western ukraine who chant. slogans anti jewish slogans and who of course got a taste for violence and who will see themselves if they are able to overthrow. as the people who brought about the revolution and of course we've seen in the past one soon to from having elections as the basis of political power to the crowd in the street so the storming of the government buildings that can slide out of control the people who think the leaders today could. find themselves marginalize

the people who are leading to used incitement to violence by denouncing the current government as being tyrants and dictators could find themselves being told by the same people who. today tomorrow so it's a very dangerous unstable situation and i think. these leaders who the west course are playing with. the west. you on sunday of course played a bad role in the process so we saw that officials on independence square that the latest announcement from washington that was seen now that it has revoking fees is and it and that the everyday words of support we hear from brussels as well isn't that puting their their revolution that is what. it is i think it's a role since to sign not only for the politics of ukraine the democratic countries of the european union the united states the governments and the bureaucratic

institutions in brussels all siding with rioting in the streets but it also in a sense is an indirect threat to anybody who dissents from the official european line inside your opinion after all what is the basis of this protest that you know his government refused to sign this government agreement with the e.u. that sparked the protests so in other words is. negative rating for the e.u. and for the americans is that he didn't do what we wanted but what if a government inside the e.u. was to begin to say we don't entirely agree with this or that would they also see a sponsored crowd on the streets would they also see inside countries inside the threat to the constitutional order if you don't follow the line that the bureaucrats in brussels so i think we're seeing not a promotion of democracy here but in fact a sinister in all the cynical power political game about the ukraine but one which has implications for the functioning of the constitutions of western europe for the functions of our own democracy maybe it will pass maybe that's just

a flash in the pan but it does reveal a rather contemptuous attitude towards elections and towards democratic procedures on the part of the elites in brussels and. in washington. professor armand life from mr allman thank you very much indeed as always for sharing your view. isn't there sand right now our correspondent at peace the owner of a is in kiev and he's closely following the bans as bound for that let's get the latest from him peter west saying out of that that people are starting to move behind what's going on exactly where you are. well large crowds of sod to gather here why does the square but not just on the square also over so my right there's a barricade that's being reinforced and abandoned by masked demonstrators

a lot of those seem to have come will be watching them migrate from what area to the other a lot of those are the same people that were moved off barricades so the need to deep down the stadium earlier on today you know these are people who have been involved in violent violent clashes with the police i. mean these are the ugliest sights either the i've seen anywhere around the world some of them. all these people of of homemade weapons from clubs to. clubs that i was to i saw one guy with a homemade sling shot and in fact just over behind me there's a guy with a small however breaking up masonry breaking up the stone work around here in order to take it up to the barricade there which are we're expecting will be will be used as ammunition later on against the against the riot police so we've seen vicious attacks in volatile cocktails fly for rioters the right police did respond and moved in to clear those barricades next to denominate as they were clearing it i

was i was just in the area right there we could have a look at it we would like to film what was going on at the time we can see that right now. we're seeing is a series of explosions cool if you believe police are trying to clear out the square as you can see a lot of people we're going to be moving this way a study comes the cover like a move to the left here yes shoot crowds of people as they're going to try to get a. hey from those barricades that we were up there can i please we begin with actually place the moving in there very very. there but the pushing back very forcefully here. hopefully we're going to be could be fine where we are please have moved everybody off the barricade moved everybody away from where they were almost our case yet we're going to have to get inside now we're going to. we had to we have to get inside to get out of the way of what's going on this is that. the police have started that they are they getting rid of and they're clearing out

everything that was at those barricades this has been the position of such a a standoff between writers and the police said. of see the police deciding this that it was time to to put an end to the often see into clear people out we saw a huge wave of people huge huge wave of people fleeing from those barricades and as police try to to disperse stores oh that's. oh that is that is. what we're saying a policeman no hitting a somebody who's on the floor right there repeatedly beating that person so yes the police have now cleared out all the way some explosions you can see that we've got to come inside to the hotel which is nearby where those barricades were. in order to get away from from what was going on. there are some wounded demonstrators some people who'd been beaten as the police have now completely

cleared all of that area away this all happened very very quickly it all happened in a space of just a few minutes we heard a few loud explosions i believe they were. they were noisy grenades that were flash bang grenades and then a charge by the police which is completely clear now that whole area of where demonstrators police have been in a standoff for the last the last few days but all of this does seem that it's set to continue for a while yet will be trying to get the count there soon as it's it's safe for us to do so to see what's going on almost barricades where they were located. the city's used to seeing demonstrators trying to move back into the territory that they were just expelled from by the by the riot police. so that's the way it looks here in kiev right now we'll be keeping a close eye on what's going on here if they set a barricade being manned by demonstrators and writers. arming themselves with

rocks with stones what you see what happens with that later on as the day progresses. hell of a line from key of peace and many thanks indeed. all right back to our panel of guests so we have. about it and with me here ok so presidential elections in ukraine is just in one year's time do you think that. the government will make about five and why you think they'll position didn't wait for the election but started their violent actions right now well that's an extremely good question because that would of course be the reasonable the democratic thing they didn't like the foreign policy choice that the current government made. the reasonable democratic thing would be to argue this to the people in one year's time to come back when presidential elections on the do as

much an about face as possible. that however has not been what the opposition on them i don have been calling for from the beginning they've been demanding completely unrealistic demands the resignation of a democratically elected government snap elections and calling for a completely unconstitutional revolution the people of the ukraine have not responded we've seen at most even in its height a few hundred thousand people in a country of forty three million participating in this the majority of the country the people who want a better life but they're waiting for someone to show some real leadership and to deliver some real results something very difficult that will improve the economic situation in the ukraine. as for the elections in a year themselves the opposition the three main leaders. the german

supported candidate the former boxer vitaly klitschko of the strike party. of the. of the back of sheen or the fatherland party and the neo nazi leader only good chinese are all of this photo party are all. i ing for egos emplacement with the protest movement themselves trying to position themselves as the presidential candidate none of them have shown any indication that they are willing to step down in front of the other two which of course is exactly the type of division among the opposition that led to victory almost five years ago and by the way right now waiting for talks between the opposition and the president to start well any time soon i believe what could come out of this what

can we expect and we all obviously know that none of the sides are going to compromise going to go on any concessions. i don't know what's. i wrote though you go ahead i don't think we can really expect anything out of these talks both sides are playing for time at this point i don't think that the opposition leaders really know what to do at this point they've lost control of these crowds. the rioters themselves have indicated that they've completely lost faith with these opposition leaders if they ever had it but really klitschko when trying to express his sentiment that the violence should stop a few days ago was hit in the face with a fire extinguisher and the protests crowds were shouting provocative or at him. so they wanted these ultra nationalists on the street want action and they will be satisfied at this point with nothing less than revolution and they're chanting

death to the enemies they're chancing glory to the ukraine and ukraine above all which of course is the eerie neo nazi. echo of the nazi collaborators in the ukraine in world war two of the nazi salute deutschland around us these are extremists they won't be satisfied with elections they won't be satisfied with concessions so there's really no reason for the government to cater to these few thousand violent ultra nationalists when the job that they should be doing is restoring order and safety to the streets of kiev. and to discuss this further when i joined live a political science professor nikolai petrovitch and mr patrick key is of course is just one part of the nation but why aren't we seeing any rallies supporting the president that much to scale up what's happening in the council.

well i think. that would lead to a civil war there would be direct clashes and bloodshed and i think that is something that reasonable people want to avoid on the one hand you have individuals who are aiming for a revolutionary transformation they are clearly a minority and they understand that they are a minority on the other hand the majority would like to avoid physical confrontation and that's what we have police and organisations that they respect such as courts. expect those to be able to implement the decisions of government and the problem here among others is that the government does not appear to be willing to take decisive action in order to restore law and order.

moments of cocktails mosques and knives and all kinds of weapons are being used in kiev right now it's no longer protests about democracy is it. well it's moved beyond that i would say and again i concur with what i've heard your previous speakers say that whatever noble intentions these protesters might have had they have been hijacked by very sinister and dark forces and it is sad to see. governments across the border in western europe and the united states not understand the dangers of fascism to a government that is divided and unwilling to take decisive action.

at tell us how authorities would react in any european or american congress or they were told to me by now in a violent way like this. well there are plenty of examples and clips on you tube from france from greece from the united states so when the whole movement was dispersed. generally there's a threshold. when forty's decide that the. right to protest have moved into a sphere in which it in dangers the livelihood. of the community and when that determination is made a government restrains of the most aggressive forces and tries to. shunt political activity back into constitutional framework of a constitutional framework that is something that the current ukrainian government

has thus far failed to do and i think it is one of the greatest weaknesses and the most destabilizing aspect of the current protests the government's ineffectiveness. legitimate government and effective. mr patrick very briefly if you can some opposition leaders openly in support of nationalist ideas why doesn't this bows out to szell's in the e.u. or in washington. for the most part because they don't take those ideas very seriously i think again fascism has she was like a historical footnote to them they don't realize that. these sorts of events could be repeated particularly in governments that don't like ukraine that don't have a long tradition of stable democratic politics. are as political science professor nicolai petro thank you very much indeed and also international is staying in that

fake of a bounce in the ukrainian capital twenty four seventh's to keep you updated on the escalating crisis there and you can also keep up with what's happening that dot com more news at the top of the hour and i would like to thank everyone who participated and contributed in the south thank you. on june sixteenth one thousand forty one we had a graduation party at school and the war broke out. the shops were always full of goods. in september

leningrad was blocked. one day mom went to sort out all the shelves were empty. in november they bombed the warehouses where you saw it was the main storage place for all the food in the city people would be eating the earth because it had small traces of sugar in it i tried to eat it as well but i couldn't. move. incredibly heavy bombing. it was a direct hit on that very shelter and everyone was buried underneath. all of them would. the united states is a very good example here because in the early years they had a pretty strong genuine democracy that by now i would argue has degenerated into

a system where money and power mattered much of it and then the deputy of the majority of the founding fathers of the united states would constantly say that they were not trying to instill democracy that democracy was horrible they want to topple him. and they purposely designed the institutions to as they put it on the exclude the majority of from participation. legend jimmy savile here's a guy who committed pedophilia with over four hundred children and he's taken to the court to take on the old bailey and his defense is if you prosecute me i'm going to go to switzerland that's what i'll just be a say if you prosecute me and our scads and scores and hundreds of incidents of fraud we threaten to leave the country and the government says oh drew we.

threw. after three years of. the death toll of over one hundred thousand. mostly in commonsense come together with one. war does not do young. does have a chance. to get. right on the scene. of. the first strike. and i were being put. on a reformist twitter. and instagram. to

be in the. mob. violent clashes and goll central kiev as ukrainian police to head down barricades and chase rises on a full day of government process. three people have died. in. the crisis fueled by nationalist and radicals came to take the opportunity to push for revolution that. and also in the headlines syria's government and opposition sit face to face with the first time since the start of the conflicts but the long and dissipated peace talks in switzerland have exposed the party's very different views on the future.