we're pretty sure i'm right on this edition. of. the suburbs are a cultural touchstone in life setting for novels movies super bowl halftime ads and even t.v. shows like the wonder years and for good reason to suburbia is literally everywhere proximately one hundred fifty eight million people more than half the country live in areas generally recognized as sub urban but all is not well placed bill clinton changing lifestyles of the tougher economy have many americans rethinking the value of suburban life just as people fled to cane cities in the one nine hundred sixty s. and seventy's many people are now flee the suburbs my guest for tonight's conversations

of the great minds leigh gallagher assistant managing editor of fortune magazine has written about this trend of assen a new book the end of the suburbs where the american dream is moving he joins us now from our new york studios illegal under welcome. hi tom thanks for having me it's great to be here thanks for joining us this is a fascinating book and let's actually let me start out with you what what got you interested in this topic what led to your writing. well i've always been drawn to big sort of trends about how we live and especially when those trends are rooted in economic data and a couple years ago i thought i thought i was caught and you know i really was struck by some census data that had started to come out that showed that for the first time our our cities had grown faster than our suburbs than that that was a trend. it had not really taken place in it was the first time in more than ninety

years and i just thought that's kind of interesting because as you point out are what is more american than the suburbs it's the white picket fence it's the lawn it's the kids in the schools and the bake sales and there's just such a rich history and cultural significance to that and at the same time you know i think a lot of us is probably witnessed there has been you know everybody knows someone who left their suburban house to move into the city or it seems like everyone knows someone like that these days and i just thought there might be something more to this to let me just sort of dig around and see what i can find and you know every stone i turned over seemed to yield some other different way of saying this same overall things so i was just really struck i just thought that this was this was a big idea with a capital b. and a capital i and i just i had it was a story just like i had i had to tell i mean it's just it's fascinating what's happening we're really at the. peak suburb if you want to think of it that way

we're in a really inflection point right now for a number of reasons you know sort of the peak oil that's and in fact is probably the association with that i lived in europe for a year and one of the things that i noticed living there was we lived a little town of thirteen thousand people in the northern part of bavaria in the front involved and there were no suburbs. in germany and i travel all over europe and i don't think i've ever seen any place that would compare to the american suburbs you either live in a small town surrounded by by by farmland or forest or mountains or you live in a big town you know small medium big town that's a period and you know they're connected by trains and mass transit and that's it how did suburbs come about and why are these so uniquely american or is my observation austria. now you're spot on but here's the ironic thing which is that the very first suburbs actually date. back to the u.k.

way back when the original notion of the suburbs a sort of halfway point between city and gentry to countryside but what happened in the u.s. and in the u.s. in the in the eighteen hundred and early one thousand nine hundred you know the suburbs here weren't all that different from in europe and that's because our early suburbs sort of sprouted up around transit before the cars so if you think too that's one of the east coast we have a lot of older suburbs that are more village esque they have a completely different design and a different plan and that plan is more like a traditional town planning blueprint that goes back centuries that's the way cities are planned it's sort of a grid with transit in the center of commerce in the center this is the way a lot of classic railroad suburbs are called now and still are today but what happened was we sort of blew up that model right around the world war two when we

were suddenly in namur with mass production. the leavitt brothers came back from world war two armed with these new skills of how to make houses very quickly on an assembly line basically the automobile of course just changed our all of our lives dramatically and we were again we were just so enamored with this that several summers became designed a different way and that's the sort of modern postwar cul de sacs plus connector road plus strip mall you know the kind of looping sprawling model came to the fore and that was the one that we chose to sort of supersize and stepford eyes and cut and paste across our whole landscape and this was happening in the fifty's i mean as early as one nine hundred fifty nine the national home builders association put out a video kind of raising concerns that is this too much you know is sprawl going to be the end of us but that was just the it was like the. beginning of the first

inning and so we just kept growing and growing and growing and it was all ways this kind of one road map this was going to be the answer for everybody so you know and that's that's one of the big problems i mean there's many problems with the bourbon design that we can talk about but it was sort of our our country with design that way almost to the exclusion of out of anything else and it's sort of this one size fits all house thing that isn't that work for a really long time but it's not working anymore one of the things that really struck me in your book was the idea of. it to a large extent this has come about as a consequence of government subsidy and it raised the question in my mind you're i'm sure you're familiar with the story of what happened in los angeles and i think was the one nine hundred twenty s. los angeles had the best mass transit system in the united states it was all above ground street cars and general motors and goodyear. firestone it was came in and said to the city council we'll take over your subway system and run it

for you more efficiently less expensively and we'll take better care of it and so the city privatized it and then they proceeded to rip up the tracks and and because they've they were all about tires and cars you know and and the l.a. the then turned into this incredible monster that it is to this day although they're starting to build back their mass transit system it was there is some sort of corporate conspiracy i mean those two companies are actually convicted in court of criminal conspiracy in that case you know was there something i light a fag in the suburbs or or was it just as you say early the site guys of the time was it just hey let's go out and live out in that what used to be a farmland. it was it was a combination of things but there was a consortium and they did it they were fined and it was a conspiracy to sort of tear up our public transit system basically so that was part of it it was also you know the federal highway act paved the way literally for

some forty thousand miles of highway and there was this there was an exhibit at the world's fair futurama and it painted this picture very famous of this this futuristic world where we were all going to live in these pretty bedroom communities and driving cars on these fast moving highways from one from our homes to our jobs and it was going to be this brand new way of living and people were i forget the numbers it was something like one point nine million people stood in line to wait and see this exhibit and it was it was this fantastic futuristic way of life that people just had to have and you know the car companies loved it of course so it was it was you know government policies had a lot to do with it government policies made it easier and cheaper to build single family homes to build homes in the suburbs instead of the cities and to pave the way for the highway they subsidize our gas prices which are way cheaper than any other country so there's a lot of government policies behind it that pushed us to the suburbs quite

literally but i think morally important to remember that i'm sort of yes yes actually yes and that was actually the interesting thing about the mortgage deduction is it was sort of an accidental by product of a nine hundred thirteen act that was just about income tax in general and so it never it never was intended to have the consequences that it did but that right now is probably more than anything was pushing people to buy homes over apartments and bigger homes than they would otherwise buy so there were all these policies but at the same time i do think it's important remember that this was a this was a market driven phenomenon as well we wanted it you know we couldn't get enough of it so back then but but that's all changing that's what we're different country we're different population and tastes are changing pretty dramatically. hollin why . how and why how they're changing is one thing i mean our cities are wildly research and whenever when people ask me about

my book when i talk to friends about they say oh your book is about the end of the suburbs so does that mean it's about cities and that's part of what it's about but that's definitely not the whole story but our cities are much nicer places to live because they are no longer home to our manufacturing centers that's why in the eighty's hundreds everyone fled the cities because they were filthy new york city now it's like an amusement park it's a wonderful it's great the prices are through the roof i mean and name your city in the country do you see the same way l.a. the same way providence rhode island cleveland ohio this is happening everywhere. but then the other cities the other thing that's happening is there is a real demographic story happening and that is that our birth rate is falling our family size is shrinking single person households are the fastest growing household size and we have built our whole country full of you know four bedroom homes for

nuclear families and the biggest home builders know this they say somebody from one of the biggest home building companies said to me at the traditional nuclear family is really going to be the minority and so that is a complete reversal from what we're used to the leave it to beaver era the wonder years era is gone and i mean it's still going to be a part of our society but we are looking at just you know instead of one american dream there is multiple american dreamers and multiple american dreams and we have a housing landscape that's built for one kind of dream so that's that's one thing the price of oil has a huge you mentioned it earlier that's a huge factor here a lot of the you know we really over expanded in the housing boom obviously we've built millions of homes that just shouldn't have been built but a lot of the people that moved to the further. places where the people that could least afford it because it was the whole drive to qualify phenomenon and many people studies show that lived far away were spending more than half of their

monthly income on their transportation costs so they were spending more on their transportation than their housing and that's something that a lot of people can't really get their arms around but but it was true so you add in you know commuting times the lifestyle that that that that really provides which is really unsatisfying to a lot of people and then the notion that you know i think people there's a real demand for community and the way we designed a lot of the modern suburbs is they're very isolating there's no one gathering space there's no place to bump into people in a lot of towns not everywhere but in a lot of places it's very hard to even go for a walk because there's a five walk through the streets are so wide that the cars go really fast so the design has a lot to do with it so it's all these factors. playing it playing a role and so much is happening i mean you know people are moving back to cities or more urban locations but also retailers office headquarters there's just so much

movement happening right now and it is it was it is from one direction to the other and the math and let me pick this up and pick this thread up right rather for the very conversations the great minds of legality that. i know c.n.n. the most. of. their commitment to cover all sides of the story just in case one of them happens to be. that was funny but it's closer to the truth just might take. of. course it's because one full attention in the mainstream media works side by side the joke

is actually on you. at our teen years we have a different brain. because the news of the world just is not this funny i'm not laughing dammit i'm not. you guys sort of jokes i will hand over the stuff that. we welcome eric made and abby martin to be terrific oh sean the art team at work. who must it's going to give you a different perspective give me one star oh never i'll give you the information you make the decision don't worry about how breaking this should work it's a revolution of the mind it's a revolution of ideas and consciousness and frustrated with the system the extreme right you know probably if you would be described as angry i think i'm a strong you know i'm single. i've put this

aside but i think it kind of. i'm back right. about money and i'm fashionably late for a politician right the last. ten. years just to what is it a side. up. it will go back to conversations with great months i'm speaking with lee gallagher assistant managing editor of fortune magazine and author of the new book the end of the suburbs where the american dream is moving. lee i'm curious if you think that we might be repeating history and if so how it might be similar or different back during the roaring twenty's there was a massive housing boom and an explosion and building of houses

a lot of huge old victorian sears was selling you know eight nine bedroom victorian houses literally through their catalog they were being built all over the country row houses in our big cities particularly new york were being built like crazy where you would have four five bedrooms six seven bedrooms in some cases three stories i four stories on the house by house by house the great depression hit in the one nine hundred thirty s. and what happened was those houses got turned into they have broken up these big victorian house got turned into five apartments or you know people would rent individual rooms but in many cases they got apartment ties the row houses new york city got turned into level so the first floor became a house the second floor became a house the third floor became a house whereas it used to all be one house and we still see the remnants of those all around us i'm wondering if that's the fate of a lot of these big mansions and you know i mean do you see any parallels between

that transition and the transition we're going through right now. absolutely and as you're saying that i'm realizing i live in one of those old old broken up hartman's in new york city but absolutely you know that one of the big questions here is well what happens to all of these big mcmansion that were built so far away and now that there's less of a demand for and many people have posited that they may be our future apartment house thing or that they maybe are you know there's all sorts of creative ideas of what to do with them some people suggest we should turn them into artists studios others have said and in fact i think this is happening somewhere they're turned into sort of film collectives. so some of them actually have drawn sort of their popular with immigrant communities who all like to live in close proximity with each other and maybe even multi generations in the same house

but all in the same neighborhood so. and then you know there's a big theory out there chris weinberger what wrote a wonderful piece for the atlantic in two thousand and eight which is very early on really suggesting that our mcmansion communities were going to become the next lom so and there's there's data there's proof i mean there's and there's a lot of logic behind why that might happen and in fact we're seeing it happening already well and in your book you talked about our suburbs are becoming poorer. can you elaborate and they are they are one of the most striking demographic trends of the last decade and the brookings institution isn't a fantastic job tracking this data is the rise of poverty in the suburbs which is just an estimate to our our vision an iconic image of the suburbs they were born at the sort of beautiful pastoral you know wealthy place that was safe no crime no anything bad and now there are more more people below the poverty line in this

country live in the suburbs than live in cities if you can almost imagine that and that's writing trends that happened for a number. of reasons over the past decade because a lot of you know a lot of jobs when i was in the suburbs but then they went away a lot of immigrants instead of migrating to cities and then moving up the suburbs they started going right to the suburbs there's a lot of reasons why that happens but poverty is more difficult to deal with in the suburbs so that's that's a huge problem if you talk also about how the millennial view housing a lot of different aspects of life but housing in particular in this case different leave in jenin x. gen y. and the boomers. speak to that. sure i mean the millennial is are so poked and prodded and studied for everything but they really are key for the future of our housing market and there's a couple things going on with them right now i mean number one as as we know a lot of that record numbers of them are living at home with their parents so they

sort of haven't launched yet which is causing a big clogging the pipeline of how things are normally supposed to happen our household formation numbers are very low but when they do launch and those that have i mean data on what they want shows that they really want different kinds of housing than they grew up in it's not necessarily that they want to live in a big skyscraper in new york city it's not really that it's more that they want to live where the action is and that can be in the right kind of suburb they just want to be in a cool place with lots going on and they don't want to be in a car so you know all those debt that data shows that they want more urban places so many people say oh but wait until they have kids they're going to go right back out to the suburbs just like their parents and everyone before them but i don't think that's going to happen for a number of reasons. what it what are those reasons. well for one thing they are this generation is has expressed

a sort of perplexing indifference towards cars and driving as i mentioned at that's really really big if you think back in the you know the whole. lucian of the one nine hundred fifty seven chevy and teenagers coming of age that was a real rite of passage getting your car where you were going to go and it was the thawing of really arriving as an adult and independence and all of that and that's fine for today's teenagers and young twenty somethings is their smartphone or their their text messaging device or you know it's technology in their gadgets that's what they care most about and not only that but when you're behind a wheel you can't be communicating that way so that that's a big thing and then you know the not having as many children is also another is another factor i mean we don't know yet what this generation is going to do for sure but you know it's they're getting into late start and everything so i think that's going to affect things i wonder if the car fascination in earlier

generations had to do with using cars to transport yourself to be with other people through interaction and the fascination with technology is now using technology to connect with other people that the same impulse is driving it but it's being played out different ways because of technological changes to make sense exactly i mean we get a big reason was always to get out of the house you know don't want to be near mom and dad whatever but now you can just be in your bedroom on your on facebook or i mean i'm probably dating myself by saying that they don't use facebook anymore that they got you know they have kids so you know texting or snap chat or whatever and that is the way to escape and that is the way to connect with your peers and so it's really dramatically different rather than driving over to their house or or ball meeting at the mall shop or whatever it may be you draw the distinction between the inner ring suburbs and the out her ring. what is that. well and everything about you know it's very hard to paint suburbs with one brush

and there's two different kinds which is kind of like the good kind and the bad guy and you know in my book i really try hard to. i'm not saying that all suburbs are going to go away and vaporize and we're all going to live and die and cry scrapers in manhattan older suburbs pre-war suburbs those that were designed around a more kind of urban village model have a different feel entirely and those are still in demand and valuations in those kinds of neighborhoods have held up a lot better than these conventions and i'm sure owning all that home is and. they are i mean there's a lot of different ways they can go it depends on where they're located but they they are small towns absolutely and they might still be a suburb i mean a lot of the new york suburbs are d.c. suburbs and the east coast we're kind of spoiled with these kinds of places because it's all about age and vintage and thought about when they were built and those that were built in a certain you know before world war two basically have one feel and then the others have a different feel but most americans live in communities that were built in the last

fifty years so most americans are living more like if you think about the show we've done show time. which was the kind of cookie cutter suburb where everything all looks the same more americans live in those kind of communities than live in pre-war older older urban suburbs but those are the ones that i think are really going to do well in the future and inner ring suburbs or one kind of those kinds of suburbs so with the outer ring suburbs where where you're these are these are the suburbs that are really designed around the car basically you have to have a car to get exactly zero shrews you have to have the car to get entertainment yes drive the movie theater yet you can't walk there may not even be a sidewalk and yet if you want to walk it's two miles down the road and is it is a debt astable that or has anybody around the country doing this the suburbs like this that might have intrinsic value there's enough housing density there's enough human density there but people who don't want to drive anymore that you could go

into you could create literally artificially create a city center by maybe buying up. five or six you know one large subdivision that's surrounded by a bunch of other ones turn the houses down putting up a city center basically a mixed use city center where you've got the entertainment food never the yells and starting to build some sidewalks out and turn turn them into the kind of inner ring suburbs or the or the the older suburbs the the new rochelle's to new york city we're talking about earlier. yes and that's happening that's happening actually in l. in a lot of places around the country there are these sort of urban urbanized suburban experiments happening all over the place really and they take a lot of different forms in some some of them in the middle of kind of remote eggs there'll be a you'll see these kind of high rise suburban villages going up and it might be a high rise apartment building with with a mixed use you know urban retail strip with commerce and cafes and everything in

a movie theater maybe and the pitch in these in these developments is very clearly you know leave your car keys at home in the marketing materials they can see they say have you met your neighbor because and it's sort of like it's really playing towards that you know don't don't live that isolated life anymore will bring you together but these are in the middle of the burbs. so there's lots of experimenting happening right now with urbanising the suburbs and i think that's going to hewitt is going it is already a huge trend going to be a big driver of housing value in the future that's fast and in the last minute we have here you grew you grew up in the suburbs you live in the city you know to what extent did those two express experiences influence your writing. and thinking hugely hugely you know i don't have anything against suburbs i had a wonderful childhood in a town called media pennsylvania which is as classic as it gets it has

a trolley it has a main street we could walk to town we had a great house i mean it was really kind of norman rockwell asked. and i now live in manhattan in the west village which is a dream neighborhood for a lot of people i know but i don't think that's the one hundred percent long term answer either that has a lot of you know it's hard to live in new york city in many ways so i don't come at this from a oh every one must live how i live in new york city and live in an apartment i mean i don't think that's the answer for probably for most people but i do think there's something wrong with the way we sort of it over expanded and and people are are really starting to to move and and corporate america is starting to move in every every moving part that response to something like this is on the move so if anything moves in cycles it's remarkable e gallagher thanks so much for that does that and for writing thank you to susan other conversations of great minds go to our website conversations with great minds . and that's the way it is tonight friday january twenty fourth twenty two

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on larry king now america's favorite pastor joel osteen i know i'm not a traditional pastor in terms of i'm just going down still teaching scripture by scripture because what i would teach would just be more how to live a great life there's that feeling that you're supposed to be poor and humble to show god that you're humble be to be sort of i call it being defeated i think as a representative of christ i'm supposed to excel what you make of the new pope i like his fact that he's you know he's reaching out to the catholic church and he made a statement about you know what we're turning into a little bit of chapel because we're pushing everybody away plus that i do a better version or you know it doesn't annoy me from a scriptural point of view i don't think it's you know what my faith would teach but it doesn't annoy me it's all next on larry king now.