ways that do not conform to the constitution or the laws of the ukraine or and which have nothing to do with the election with elections in the ukraine terrace in new york city how did you react to the to the leaked conversation because it's quite embarrassing and i would suppose if you take it at face value it shows the true intentions of the united states about regime change and care of. i think this is i wasn't very. i didn't think this was such a great big deal every government whether it's european union britain america russia as well will be discussing between themselves who they would like to have in place the previous caller. previous expert talked about the government there isn't a government in place in ukraine that's the problem the country is moving towards default and there isn't a government in place it's not going to be washington or moscow or london brussels which decides which government is going to be in ukraine going to be the korean

people different countries are going to have their own preferences as to who they would like all of this is just sort of fortunately part of what is a still a soviet style conspiracy theories which you still have amongst the far left and far right in the west as well that somehow the americans are beyond everything i wish that was the case but it's not the case that's not the reality the reality is very different that people are fed up with a highly corrupt person and the previous caller talked about laws and constitution you have a call that the president of ukraine and the party of regions don't have an understanding of what is the rule of law in the constitution so what are we talking about ok but i think we're talking about an elected government i don't think anyone refutes that you're not going to you in washington i was into the national guard let's go to watch and i listen i tape over and over again this is no conspiracy this is quite open right now i mean for five billion dollar investment to get the government they want and you keep in care about i don't think this is crazy this is very it's

patently clear what's going on now. well to a calmer us part i don't believe in conspiracy theories i believe in conspiracy facts and what we heard on the tape was a fact it's not what we'd like to see it's who is going to be where i think you know this is going to happen do this do that screw the e.u. put it pull in the people from united nations this is not a couple of people privately discussing or we would like to see this wouldn't it be nice no this is two people planning to offer through a government of a country i don't see why anybody would be surprised by this though this is exactly the thing that was in two thousand and serbia and it was similarly branded as a popular revolution but it wasn't it was a coup it was a coup effected through these demonstrations through the torching of the national assembly through to street demonstrations it turned violent it was regime change by any other name ok alexander how does this put the the opposition what kind of light are they in right now i mean are there bosses in washington i guess are not in the

e.u. depending on if you interpret mr ms a newlands words and i won't repeat them here obviously. who is calling the shots right here i mean the opposition is portrayed in western media these really nice people that are nonviolent an eccentric such a mistake tells us something very different about the nature of the opposition they're waiting for orders i suppose. can i just make a point here this isn't just an attempt to overthrow the government it's an attempt to maneuver and manipulate various people within the opposition what ms nuland says is that mr should be brought into the government and mystically should go should be kept out of it mystically mr supposed to be allies here and we see that the united states is trying to maneuver between them and decide which of them should be are and which of them should be done now it clearly in mind to mind. that

as well as the united states is. concerned mr gets is their man whereas it would seem that mr klitschko is not to the extent to which only the mr gets and you almost go in for are in control of the situation is of course a moot point now can i just deal with something that was said by another speaker of course the ukraine has a government it has an elected president it has a government which functions at the moment and with which the european union and the united states deals with mr nuland meets mr yanik overage now to say that there is no government in the ukraine is simply not true of course there is a government in the ukraine of course there is a conspiracy could i come in here ok you made your point alexander a fair time for everyone terrace in new york please go ahead yeah we have to we

have to understand this in the context of any any any country giving financial assistance to another country there's no such thing as a free lunch when russia gave its. offered its fifteen billion dollars financial assistance to president young the conviction november december of last year it also had a preference as to who it would like to stay in power in government and president ukraine similarly will it would be with less money for an entire month tyrus thomas time i'm sorry to interrupt you but i think we need to clarify something here that wasn't a preference for a government in ukraine it was to make sure you crane didn't go into default ok because it has very pressing financial needs right here it is on russia's border by the way so i think we should be very clear here and there also euro bonds ok they want their money back it's a little bit different than the five billion dollars new in talked about last december very different go ahead finish up. the i disagree about that that the russian leadership obviously has

a preference who would like to have in power in ukraine. and that is certainly not what it sees as a pro european opposition the money was given to you on the call of it to bribe them to not sign the european union so station agreement and the opposition have stated that they would like to sign it russia doesn't want that so. say to its preferences let's do who we would like to have in power ok go for you know boys you know in washington go ahead jump in go ahead go ahead jump in washington. this is not a matter of preference is with all due respect this is not a matter of preferences first of all the russian offer came after refusal to sign the european union treaty because the math was wrong because european union demanded several billion euros in reform costs versus six hundred million it offered in return it was simply a math problem that wasn't going to work out after the riots broke out after does democratic opposition try to storm the government the russians made

a counteroffer to present a coach but it's not a matter of who prefers what it's the issue of the russians giving the elected government which was elected in elections and there are another elections coming up so if one really believed in democracy one would venture to well replaces government in a vote on the street but it's a very good point ok good united states is exactly that it's up alexander the word was mentioned democracy so it's new in believing in democracy or is he just want to throw five billion dollars at her candidates to get the government she wants because we've had elections the e.u. respected the outcome of washington respected the outcome now they say no we don't like this government anymore and you know i want to follow the money trail who's getting this money ok go ahead. well well i mean it's clearly the opposition are getting this money the kerry make one point harry clear eight of the problem with the problem is that the united states has got into the habit of saying the

democracy is whatever system there is in any particular country when our particular person is in power they're now the democratic government of the ukraine the democratically elected government of the ukraine is that of mr young and coach the agreement that was made by the russians with mr yanik over which was an intergovernmental agreement between two governments to two legitimate recognized governments what do you think it states is trying to do is something totally different they are trying to overthrow that government and replace that with another you cannot possibly compare the two the two are totally different and what is being talked about here and what we heard in that telephone conversation has nothing to do with democracy as anyone else other than certain people in washington understand it ok gentlemen we're going to go to a quick break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine

stay with r.t. . if you want. leg. length

. look it was a problem very hard to make a plan to get along a plug in that sax was a perfect hair plugs let's. just say. lists

look upon. you know the united states has as many think tanks as the next ten countries combined yes one thousand eight hundred twenty eight takes to tell three hundred million people and i think. there's a saying when you're in the arctic you have the entire world at your feet. she looks like a fairly simple ship but really she's not simple little handful of people have access to the nuclear icebreakers the real king here is at the polar bear and ice breakers come second not a single complex expedition to the arctic can be conducted without the russian nuclear powered fleet of ice breakers we've undertaken a unique operation. the northern sea route russia's arctic

ice breakers. led. her. to leave the economic ups and downs in the final tolerable long day the longer the deal and the rest of the. case it will be everything we own all please please. please please. put it on your own strong arm an ally should be making news all the face you know alone. mum.

a pleasure to have you with us here on our screens today. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the recent developments in ukraine. ok times article back to you in new york and you brought up the word bribery bribes earlier in the program i mean isn't this what the e.u. is doing right now they're saying you know we'll have a package for you but you have to do x. y. and z. and pull in the i.m.f.

again which dropped in two thousand and ten because it was very unpopular right here i mean it's is about deal making at least the european union seems to be a little bit more transparent in what it's doing mrs nuland seems to be very opaque and in listening to that telephone conversation she sounds like a mafia boss ordering a hit well first of all going back to the question of democracy. the two previous calls in london and washington fail to understand there is no democracy in ukraine black thursday sixteenth of january in the space of twenty one minutes the party of regions in common is destroyed ukraine's democracy so what are we talking about a government which supposed to moccasin let's let's get real vocal of why and why i think you're immediately into the why should a european union in washington get involved in all of this in the first place why why can't you let the ukrainians say you're ukraine both. yes of course both the orange administration and under the shank and you should go under yonder call which

have been negotiating an association agreement since two thousand and seven two thousand and eight both sides have been the go cheating younger crowd which dropped the last minute because he preferred the russian option of financial assistance because that was better suited for him for reelection in two thousand and fifteen he didn't give a damn about the ukraine as a country yet but he was elected probably because when the levy is president he was any given i was elected as president he was elected president correct. he was elected president was elected president is elected president of ukraine till march two thousand and fifteen now he somebody who is seen as legitimate in the eyes of ukraine's know because he's destroyed ukraine's democracy and he's got a lot on his harley you know that god i don't know how to use this how do you speak for the ukrainian people all of them ok why can't you wait for the next election ukraine through all of that bomb out how democracy works you have an election cycle

alexander it seems to me it seems to me of alexander going into london with what the u.s. government wants to do is it wants to put its figure in power in kiev before that election they want their candidate there that's why they're pushing this so hard right now and again i won't repeat what newman said about the european union because the european union more or less is trying to deal with this government which is legitimate and in power the u.s. wants to push hard and fast but that's exactly what they think made it perfectly clear that they want mr yeltsin you to become prime minister mr you'd say in your case mr yanukovych which is pretty opponent and washington clearly sees him and miss nuland has confirmed that it's man now the point to make of the ukraine not being a democracy anymore that there is a threat to the demat to democracy in the you know in the ukraine and we see where it's coming from it's coming from the people including the united states who want

to overthrow its constitution and a democratically elected government and they want to do that before that government is due to come up for reelection in march two thousand and fifteen now there may be all sorts of issues with mr yanukovych which he may be corrupt he may be incompetent he is entirely within his rights not to sign an association agreement with the european union if he. judges that that's inappropriate if you want to remove him the right constitutional and democratic way to do that is through an election which is due in march of next year not through these extraordinary maneuvers that we're seeing in which people are brought out onto the streets the buildings are seized violence happens there are riots all funded it appears now by the united states which wants its own particular candidate made

prime minister before those elections take place which if i go back you in washington if you look at the times of new and visited ukraine in the last few months from november of last year to the to the close to the president here there is there seems to be a very interesting connection to when the violence broke out ok after she had had consultations with some members of the opposition and i'd like to point out to our viewers some of these people are very unsavory people are some people in ukraine and outside of ukraine call them neo nazis or certainly there are nationalists i don't know why again the united states in the european union want to deal with people like that go ahead. well the united states deals with people who can deliver goods again i'm dumb seeing perilous a serbian two thousand back then put together a coalition of eighteen different parties that had nothing in common that had marginal support in the general population they put forth a candidate for

a presidential function that may have won to majority of votes or may have gone into a runoff we'll never know because that very opposition proceeded to burn down the ballots and torch the national assembly and then declare itself the rightful winner of the elections this is the kind of technology works and then of course after they got into power they proceeded to cannibalize themselves and fight each other and violate the constitution in the six ways from sunday so what happens is that the u.s. government picks people who can deliver on the violence to overthrow the regime change and then starts moving these people around the board favoring some and. declaring others out of bounds which is again what exactly what happened in serbia people should study this so what's happening in ukraine now is that in november when the government of president general was decided not to proceed with the european integration agreement these people came out to the streets decided ok well democracy elections all that stuff is not good enough for us we want to overthrow the government by force and what did when that didn't work they escalated and every

time a senior u.s. official whether it's miss nuland or mr mccain comes in it keeps escalating afterwards they're never around for the escalation itself know they safely leave before that happens and then the protests escalate and they turn even more violent who killed democracy in ukraine the people who decided to occupy the government buildings of people who decided that voting wasn't good enough that they that they need to force the government to listen to their demands which by the way are their demands have never been tested in an election and if when they were tested they lost. these are people who don't believe in democracy not the president thomas would you like to react to that because what kind of legitimacy do these are busy figures have now after this week telephone conversation they sound like stooges. i think well first of all let's put this into context the there is a nationalist fringe on the on the my down but they absolutely children kindergarten children compared to the serbian radical party which your call emotions seems to be

a supporter of old social socialist party they're willing to war crimes so let's put this into context the there is a small minority there but if you want to try to understand what's going on in ukraine don't try to make out that these are all extreme factions there are many many normal people everyday people who just had enough of corruption crime and illegality in the country that the process that's what's going to happen in ukraine is not going to be decided in washington all this conspiracy theorizing that somehow the state department's going to ring watching the greenery in kiev and then decide it's got it has to be constitutional reform so that the government is elected by the parliamentary majority to have a car is a job i need to hear anything about your concept your finally here anything about constitutional reform in that telephone conversation did you alexander i didn't hear that no it's not in that conversation. there are three things that have to be done there are contrary to reforms are key to this ok alexander i think the ukrainian should report. it will go ahead alexander jump in well indeed they should

and that is of the loss of the constitutional reform it is it is being brought up now in a way that very much suggests in fact that there's more problems within the opposition itself in that the person that the united states favors mr yet saying you is not him for the most popular of the opposition leaders if you look at opinion polls he's actually the fourth most popular after mystically each go to mr poroshenko and misty machine co what seems to be happening is that the constitution is now going to be changed or attempts have been made to change it in order to ensure that this relatively armed populace person. as for a minister has the power now cannot say something it's not for outsiders to try and interfere in the politics of the ukraine and of course the ukrainians should be left to sort out these affairs look problem is that is not what the united states

is doing we saw that with mr nuland and her telephone conversation with the ambassador we see this with this stream of visitors that are going to the ukraine all the time openly interfering of the political process there that we see this in the money that is being sent to them and there is no comparison between money sent by russia as part of an integral intergovernmental agreement and money sent to opposition leaders in order to overthrow the government and we see this in the arctic contempt for the ukraine's existing constitutional and democratic procedures which let us remember allow for an alder lee transfer of power through a constitutional democratic election next year and a voice in washington you want to jump in earlier please do. well mr cruz yo made

an accusation that i was a supporter of the serbian socialists and radicals we find laughable but i do wish to point out that those very same socialists and the radicals that were demonized in two thousand and used that as the bogeyman to unite the opposition are currently in power and they're executing the orders from washington in brussels more faithfully than anybody could have ever hoped for this is the consequence of fifteen years of american democracy did you get a government and whoever wants to get elected has to do what they're told ok it doesn't i don't want to believe in it i want to go back to and i want to go back to you because i want to share time i want him to have the last word in the program are things better or worse now after this telephone conversation. they. are i agreed to rate the if you if you think in terms of conspiracy theories you're not going to understand what's going on the the the the onus of where this began was in kiev not in washington or brussels there has to be steps which include

constitutional reform presidential him as has been destroyed as a kind of a it has as bad bad feelings amongst majority of the population you need to have a time gentlemen i have put your case here i have to continue it for another time many thanks to my guest today in washington new york and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us your darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.

i marinate joining me. for in-depth impartial and financial commentary for news and much much. only on bombast and. i know c.n.n. the m s m b c news have taken some slightly but the fact is i admire their commitment to cover all sides of the story just in case one of them happens to be accurate. that was funny but it's close and for the truth from them i think. it's because one whole attention and the mainstream media works side by side the joke is actually on here. and our teen years we have a different brain. because the news of the world just is not this funny

i'm not laughing dammit i'm not how. you guys talk to the jokes i will hand over the stuff that i've got to. this is obviously more for the ladies because it's pink. women wanted to avoid rate they really need to buy guns environ how to use them i'm. sure this is the one that i'm going to go with them once again it's the field. when the definitely the target of the gun lobby and you don't kill them when you're killing money but if somebody would you would just prefer. i notice it more and more and that's really scary marketing tactics which implies that women have some sort of moral obligation to tell guns to protect their family and young girls shoot out here too so we do have

a pink or. more kids young kids choke on food than are killed by firearms if being armed made us safer in america we should be the safest nation on earth were clearly not the safest. but there are no words that the location of a boy still remember. how to do that well there is of the low height ten thousand said you would stop this storm we might be more my people will die.

stories others refuse to notice. the faces. from around the globe.

and a world record at the sochi olympics has a russian figure skating pair wow judges with their short program and continue their pursuit for gold plus. the people working round the clock to make the suction games an unforgettable experience meet some of the thousands of volunteers who have become the face of the host city. a love of the city. for. r.t. travels to south africa to explore the nation's struggle to overcome rampant corruption and poverty and deep divisions left after the passing of nelson mandela.