a society that i'm a big corporation kind of can. do i'm the banker i think it's all been all about money and i'm a nationally pick for a politician writing the laws and regulations that. somehow my job. here is just to lead. today's society. that. starforce let. me bring in the finish line of the current i'm. going to. play for here in the morning for a. senior u.s. state department official victoria nuland and the american ambassador to ukraine

said on tape what many had claimed all along washington's plans to overthrow the elected government in kiev on this edition of crossfire we now see how this embarrassing week changes the political battlefield in ukraine the for.

hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter all of a leave conversation of two american officials the f. bomb and the gender revealed a senior u.s. state department official victoria nuland and the american ambassador to ukraine said on tape what many have claimed all along washington's plans to overthrow the elected government in kiev on this edition of crossfire we ask how this embarrassing leak changes the political battlefield in ukraine. to cross-talk developments in ukraine i'm joined by my guests no voice in washington he is director of the rice institute for serbian studies in new york we

have car school zero he is a research associate at the canadian institute for ukrainian studies at the university of alberta and in london we crossed to alexander me curious he is an analyst and writer on legal affairs for a gentleman cross talk rules in effect means you can jump in anytime you want and i encourage it alexander i go to you first in london this week with victoria nuland were you surprised by it all because for a lot of circles and particularly in this part of the world it confirmed a lot of what people thought all along that this is a not so covert overthrow of a legitimately elected government in care of saluki that's exactly what you see is that let's be absolutely clear about this what nuland and the ambassador would call talking about was who is to be the prime minister of the ukraine nuland wants. to be the prime minister of the ukraine not mystically who is the opposition leader who is currently more popular. and she wants to. do this into

a way that is contrary to the actual government of the ukraine which is led by mr rich so we have a situation where the united states through missing you newland is actually maneuvering to put its position it's person in charge of the ukraine against the government there and in ways that do not conform to the constitution or the laws of the ukraine or and which have nothing to do with the election with elections in the ukraine terrace in new york city how did you react to the to the leaked conversation because it's quite embarrassing and i would suppose if you take it at face value it shows the true intentions of the united states about regime change in kiev. i think this is i wasn't very. i didn't think this was such a great big deal every government whether it's european union britain america

russia as well will be discussing between themselves who they would like to have in place the previous caller. previous expert talked about the government there isn't a government in place in ukraine that's the problem the country's moving towards default and there isn't a government in place it's not going to be washington or moscow or london brussels which decides which government is going to be in ukraine going to be the korean people different countries are going to have their own preferences as to who they would like all of this is just sort of fortunately part of what is a still a soviet style conspiracy theories which you still have amongst the far left and far right in the west as well that somehow the americans are beyond everything i wish that was the case but it's not the case that's not the reality the reality is very different that people are fed up with a highly corrupt person and the previous caller talked about laws and constitution yet the coverage the president of ukraine and the party of regions don't have an

understanding of what is the rule of law in the constitution so what are we talking about ok but i think we're talking about an elected government i don't think anyone refutes that you're not going to you in washington i listen to the national guard let's go to watch and i was like tape over and over again this is no conspiracy this is quite open right now i mean for five billion dollar investment to get the government they want and you keep in care about i don't think this is crazy this is very it's patently clear what's going on now. walter comare rothbart i don't believe in conspiracy theories i believe in conspiracy facts and what we heard on the tape was a fact it's not what we'd like to see it's who is going to be where i think you know this is going to happen do this do that screw the e.u. put it pull in the people from united nations this is not a couple of people privately discussing or we would like to see this wouldn't it be nice no this is two people planning to offer through a government of a country i don't see why anybody would be surprised by this though this is exactly

the thing that was in two thousand and serbia and it was similarly branded as a popular revolution but it wasn't it was a coup it was a coup effected through these demonstrations through the torching of the national assembly through to street demonstrations it turned violent it was regime change by any other name ok alexander how does this put the the opposition what kind of light of day and right now i mean are there bosses in washington i guess are not in the e.u. depending on if you interpret mr ms a newlands words and i won't repeat them here obviously. who is calling the shots right here i mean the opposition is portrayed in western media these really nice people that are nonviolent an eccentric sector the state tells us something very different about the nature of the opposition they're waiting for orders i suppose. can i just make a point here this isn't just an attempt to overthrow the government it's an attempt to maneuver and manipulate various people within the opposition what ms nuland says

is that mr should be brought into the government and mystically to go should be kept out of it mystically mr supposed to be allies here and we see that the united states is trying to maneuver between them and decide which of them should be are and which of them should be done now it clearly in mind to my mind shows that as far as the united states concerned is. and mr gets is their man whereas it would seem that mr klitschko is not up to the extent to which only the mr gates and you all mystically go in for are in control of the situation is of course a moot point now can i just deal with something that was said by another speaker of course the ukraine has a government it has an elected president it has a government which functions at the moment and with which the european union

and the united states deals with mr nuland meets mr yanik overage now to say that there is no government in the ukraine is simply not true of course there is a government in the ukraine of course there is a conspiracy could i come in here ok you made your point alexander unfair time for everyone tyrus in new york please go ahead yes we have to we have to understand that in the context of any any any country giving financial assistance to another country there's no such thing as a free lunch when russia gave its. offered its fifteen billion dollars financial assistance to president young the conviction november december of last year it also had a preference as to who it would like to stay in power in government and president ukraine similarly will it would be with us money terrorists are much higher star and star i'm sorry to interrupt you but i think we need to clarify something here that wasn't a preference for a government in ukraine it was to make sure you crane didn't go into default ok

because it has very pressing financial needs right here it is on russia's border by the way so i think we should be very clear here and there also euro bonds ok they want their money back it's a little bit different than the five billion dollars new in talked about last december very different go ahead finish up. the i disagree about that that the russian leadership obviously has a preference who would like to have in power in ukraine. it is certainly not what it sees as a pro european opposition the money was given to you on the call of it to bribe them to not sign the european union so station agreement and the opposition have stated that they would like to sign it russia doesn't want that so russia has stated its preference let's do we would like to have in power ok. go ahead jump in and go ahead go ahead jump in and washington. this is not a matter of preference to us that with all due respect this is not

a matter of preferences first of all the russian offer came after refusal to sign the european union treaty because the math was wrong because european union demanded several billion euros in reform costs versus six hundred million it offered in return it was simply a math problem that wasn't going to work out after the riots broke out after does democratic opposition try to storm the government the russians made a counteroffer to present a coach but it's not a matter of who prefers what it's the issue of the russians giving the elected government which was elected in elections and there are another elections coming up so if one really believed in democracy one would venture to well replaces government in a vote on the street but it's a very good point ok good united states is exactly that it's up alexander the word was mentioned democracy so it's new in believing in democracy or she does want to throw five billion dollars at her candidates to get the government she wants because we've had elections the e.u.

respected the outcome the washington respected the outcome now they say no we don't like this government anymore and you know i want to follow the money trail who's getting this money ok go ahead. well well i mean it's clearly the opposition are getting this money that the army wasn't going for harry clear eight of the problem with the problem is that the united states has got into the habit of saying the democracy is whatever system there is in any particular country when our particular person is in power there now the democratic government of the ukraine the democratically elected government of the ukraine is that of mr young and coach the agreement that was made by the russians with mr yanik over which was an intergovernmental agreement between two governments to two legitimate recognized governments what do you think it states is trying to do is something totally different they are trying to overthrow that government and replace that with

another you cannot possibly compare the two the two are totally different and what is being talked about here and what we heard in that telephone conversation has nothing to do with democracy as anyone else other than certain people in washington understand it ok gentlemen we're going to go to a quick break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with our team. leave.

please it was terrible they come up very hard to make up plots against the law here the clock never had sex with the earthquake there's no let's let's play. the flute player. play. lists. lists lists of. the people.

i marinate join a. church into impartial and financial reporting commentary contribute and much much. only on the bus and only on a. plane. flew science technology innovation all the list of elements from around russia we've gone to the huge earth covered.

welcome back to crosstalk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the recent developments in ukraine. ok terms i look like to you in new york and you brought up the word bribery bribes earlier in the program i mean isn't this what the e.u. is doing right now they're saying you know we'll have a package for you but you have to do x. y. and z. poll in the i.m.f. again which dropped in two thousand and ten because it was very unpopular right here i mean it's is about deal making at least the european union seems to be a little bit more transparent in what it's doing miss nuland seems to be very opaque and in listening to that telephone conversation she sounds like a mafia boss ordering a hit well first of all going back to the question of democracy. the two previous calls in london and washington failed to understand there is no democracy in ukraine black thursday sixteenth of january in the space of twenty one minutes the

party reaches incumbent is destroyed ukraine's democracy so what are we talking about a government which supposed to moccasin let's let's get real vocal of why why. why should a european union in washington get involved in all of this in the first place why why can't you let the ukrainians say here ukraine both. yes of course both the orange administration and under you should go under you on the call which have been negotiating an association agreement since two thousand and seven two thousand and eight both sides have been the go shaking younger coverage dropped the last minute because he preferred the russian option of financial assistance because that was better suited for him for reelection in two thousand and fifteen he didn't give a damn about the ukraine as a country yet but he was elected probably because when the likelihood is president he wasn't a given when i was elected president he was elected president correct. he was

elected president was elected president is elected president of ukraine till march two thousand and fifteen now he somebody who is seen as legitimate in the eyes of ukraine's know because he's destroyed ukraine's democracy and he's got a lot on his harley you know that god i don't know how to use this how do you speak for the ukrainian people all of them ok why can't you wait for the next election ran through all that by mouth you know how democracy works you have an election cycle alexander it seems to me it seems to me of alexander going into london with what the us government wants to do is it wants to put its figure in power in kiev before that election they want their candidate there that's why they're pushing this so hard right now and again i won't repeat what newman said about the european union because the european union more or less is trying to deal with this government which is legitimate and in power the us wants to push hard and fast but that's exactly right the thing made it perfectly clear that they want mr yeltsin

year to become prime minister mr you'd say in your case mr young. opponent and washington clearly sees him and miss nuland has confirmed that it's man now the point to make about the ukraine not being a democracy anymore that there is a threat to the demat to democracy in the you know in the ukraine and we see where it's coming from it's coming from the people including the united states who want to overthrow its constitution and a democratically elected government and they want to do that before that government is due to come up for reelection in march two thousand and fifteen now there may be all sorts of issues with mr yanik of which he may be corrupt he may be incompetent he is entirely within his rights not to sign an association agreement with the european union if he had. judges that that's inappropriate if you want to

remove him the right constitutional and democratic way to do that is through an election which is due in march of next year not through these extraordinary maneuvers that we're seeing in which people are brought out onto the streets the buildings are seized violence happens there are riots all funded it appears now by the united states which wants its own particular candidate made prime minister before those elections take place which if i go back and watch him if you look at the times of new and visited ukraine in the last few months from november of last year to the to the close to the president here there seems to be very interesting connection to when the violence broke out ok after she hadn't had consultations with some members of the opposition and i'd like to point out to our viewers some of these people are very unsavory people are some people in ukraine and outside of

ukraine call them neo nazis or certainly there are a nationalist i don't know why again the united states in the european union want to deal with people like that go ahead. well the united states deals with people who can deliver goods again i'm seeing perilous a serbian two thousand back then put together a coalition of eighteen different parties that had nothing in common that had marginal support in the general population they put forth a candidate for presidential function that may have won to majority of votes or may have gone into a runoff we'll never know because that very opposition proceeded to burn down the ballots and torch the national assembly and then declare itself the rightful winner of the elections this is the kind of technology works and then of course after they got into power they proceeded to cannibalize themselves and fight each other and violate the constitution in the six ways from sunday so what happens is that the u.s. government picks people who can deliver on the violence to overthrow the regime change

and then starts moving these people around the board favoring some and. declaring others out of bounds which is again what exactly what happened in serbia people should study this so what's happening in ukraine now is that in november when the government of president general was decided not to proceed with the european integration agreement these people came out to the streets decided ok well democracy elections all that stuff is not good enough for us we want to overthrow the government by force and what did when that didn't work they escalated and every time a senior u.s. official whether it's miss nuland or mr mccain comes in it keeps escalating afterwards they're never around forty escalation itself no they safely leave before that happens and then the protests escalate and then attorney even more violent who killed democracy in ukraine the people who decided to occupy the government buildings of people who decided the voting wasn't good enough that they that they need to force the government to listen to their demands which by the way are their demands have never been tested in an election and if when they were tested they lost. these are to people who don't believe in democracy not the president tell us

would you like to react to that because what kind of legitimacy do these our visitation figures have now after this leaked telephone conversation they sound like stooges. i think well first of all let's put this into context the there is a nationalist fringe on the on the my down but they are absolutely children kindergarten children compared to the serbian radical party which your call emotions seems to be a supporter of old social socialist party they're willing to war crimes so let's put this into context the there is a small minority there but if you want to try to understand what's going on in ukraine don't try to make out that these are all extreme factions there are many many normal people everyday people who just had enough of corruption crime and illegality in the country that the process that's what's going to happen in ukraine is not going to be decided in washington all this conspiracy theorizing that somehow the state department's going to ring watching the greenery in kiev and then

decide it's got it has to be constitutional reform so that the government is elected by the parliamentary majority to have a chorus of i need to hear anything about simply or finally hear anything about constitutional reform in that telephone conversation did you alexander i didn't hear that no it's not in that conversation where. there are three things that have to be done there are contrary to reforms a key to this ok alexander i think the ukrainian should report. it will go ahead alexander jump in what indeed they should and that is of the laws of the constitution reform it is it is being brought up now in a way that very much suggests in fact that there's more problems within the opposition itself in that the person that the united states favors mr yet saying you is not him for the most popular of the opposition leaders if you look at opinion polls he's actually the fourth most popular after mystically each go to mr

poroshenko and misty machine co what seems to be happening is that the constitution is now going to be changed or attempts have been made to change it in order to ensure that this relatively popular person. as prime minister has the power now cannot say something it's not for outsiders to try and interfere in the politics of the ukraine and of course the ukrainians should be left to sort out these affairs look problem is that is not what the united states is doing we saw that with mr nuland and her telephone conversation with the ambassador we see this with this stream of visitors that are going to the ukraine all the time openly interfering in the political process there that we see this in the money that is being sent to them and there is no comparison between money sent by russia as part of an integral intergovernmental agreement and money sent to opposition leaders in order to

overthrow the government and we see this in the arctic contempt for the ukraine's existing constitutional and democratic procedures which let us remember allow for an alder lee transfer of power through a constitutional democratic election next year and a voice in washington you want to jump in earlier please do. well mr cruz yo made an accusation that i was a supporter of the serbian socialists and radicals we find laughable but i do wish to point out that those very same socialists and the radicals that were demonized in two thousand and used that as the bogeyman to unite the opposition are currently in power and they're executing the orders from washington in brussels more faithfully than anybody could have ever hoped for this is the consequence of fifteen years of american democracy did you get a government and whoever wants to get elected has to do what they're told ok it

doesn't i don't want to believe in it i want to go back to and i want to go back to t.v. because i want to share time i want him to have the last word in the program are things better or worse now after this telephone conversation. they. are i agreed to rate that if you if you think in terms of conspiracy theories you're not going to understand what's going on there. the the onus of where this began was in kiev not in washington oh brussels there has to be steps which include constitutional reform presidential him as has been destroyed as a kind of a it has as bad bad feelings amongst majority of the population you need more and gentlemen i have put your case here i have to continue it for another time many thanks to my guest today in washington new york and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember cross talk.

is obviously more for the ladies because it's pink. when they wanted to avoid rain . they really needed to buy guns in america how to use them. this is the one that i want to go with them once again it's the field. when the definitely the target of the gun lobby you don't kill them when you're killing money but if somebody would he would piss with her. i've noticed that more and more and that's really scary marketing tactics which implies that women have some sort of moral obligation to protect their family and young girls shoot out here too so we do have

a pink or. more kids young kids choke on food than are killed by firearms if being armed made us safer in america we should be the safest nation on earth were clearly not the safest. we welcome there are native abby martin to be two or three posts on the r.t.e. network. it's going to give you a different perspective give you one star never i'll give you the information you make the decision don't worry about bringing you the work the revolution the mind it's a revolution of ideas and consciousness. extremely. few things would be described does angry i think i'm a strong. under single. though

barred on everyone i might be martin and this is breaking the set so it turns out that even in the wake of the snowden leaks proving that the n.s.a. is spying on all the earth citizens the military industrial complex thinks the surveillance state should be taken one step further according to vice by the end of two thousand and fourteen two enormous military surveillance planes will be hovering ten thousand feet in the air with the ability to see it three hundred forty miles in any direction on the east coast the booms are called j. lens and they're being purchased from raytheon by the u.s. army for two point seven billion dollars each blimp will be tethered to the ground and will have an insanely powerful cameras radar and built in sensors and you know why.