hello welcome to sophie and co i'm so shevardnadze a law that would allow he said for children is being considered in belgium is passed the bill would lift state restrictions and those were a quest for their lives to be terminated and we'll be speaking to one of those behind a controversial love. a matter of life and death these parents are forced to watch their children ways to way slowly and. surely assisted suicide be an option. these two for. euthanasia is posing questions no one would ever want to answer do miners have the right to die is a time to break the taboo. and our guest is belgian senator run to support her off

the low allow him to finish a four miners feeling about phillip mouth thank you very much for being with us at this program so you know are you a doctor yourself a surgeon what have you seen that could possibly make you take up this issue in the first place. oh listen as a doctor i think we were confronted with the situations of great distress what's your thought on medications with incurable disease mostly cancers. and it also applies to minors children and teenagers. of all good before the two thousand and two was adopted in belgium we could not respond to the request for ethan asia. even though the piece since the law was passed many pediatricians and colleges in particular those who deal with children so yes just repeatedly beg in

some cases the demand the law to allow those children that are suffering to benefit from dignified death through the world but this is why we started this discussion in the build in parliament of what that means to you and what your problem obeys but i'm just wondering if you had any personal experience yourself how many cases have you personally come across where children have asked doctors to help them die and how many parents have agreed to that. or somebody said. you know it's always difficult to be able to evaluate the number of cases. i'll tell you something quite specific though. in your life if you visit mit specially if you're a physician it's what you own you're called to take care even of one of these cases only one of these people whether an adult or a minor he was that you were confronted with the situation and you quickly realize

the need to find solutions and solve this issue unbearable pain. incurable diseases don't so the number is not the most important here but the more what matters is that there are children. who suffer from incurable diseases and for whom it is necessary to find a humane solution and sort of. human you know it's a pure coincidence but i'm a journalist i'm thirty five but i also happen to be a board member of a moscow hospice so people that i work with very tightly they are actually confronted with lethally ill kids every day kids die every day and when i talk to them about euthanasia they tell me that they yet have to come across at child who wishes to die because that hasn't happened yet in our case.

could haunt small. because. quite frankly it was more there are such cases because some kid conform to very fortunately for that was me it's not the same person who is facing this type of situation every time fifty of the very fortunately it is not the same families. i don't know but i can tell you that it tell us that this type of situation exists. and that unbearable suffering that exists made exist of the nine is the number of cases that arise in the an extremely important number. the answer is no you know what you very fortunately the answer is no well no but there are cases and it is necessary to respond to them now this is the reality of the sort of hill. and you know in two thousand and two when the law

permitting euthanasia for adults was passed we have heard arguments saying that we did not care enough about the patients keep saying that's the reason we propose this type of solution but yet if they want to pick a metaphor what is that it really is best for me i can say that we do this because we truly care it's what you are putting this amendment through parliament to allow a solution which is both euthanasia and tell it you care they will feel both adults and children really care givers and doctors who continue to tell us that this choice is needed they want to support people at the end make sure peonies mean yes and really call navy said a circus or. have you had a situation where parents ask for their children to be killed three thousand asia. not of with parents not with my immediate circle but i want to remind you again

that i am a doctor and as doctors we can be confronted with the situations that are highly different. it isn't because we find ourselves in a situation similar to the experience of someone emotionally close to us. it's not because we find ourselves in this kind of situation that we take initiative but we take this initiative because we want to fix the overall situation exists that's what is most important but why and why i'm so pissed to find out your personal opinion on experience is because this is a very personal law it's a very emotional law it's a law that for many crosses ethics or morals so i don't know if you have any children but if you had any children i mean would you allow them to decide on matters of life or death i can answer your in any case see that if god forbid i

had a child it would end up in this type of situation and i want to point out that by this type of situation i mean a child a teeny who's suffering is related to an incurable disease who will die in the near future if such a trial you can ask me see and then he's or her suffering. i would respond positively. and i believe that's it's the entire population in belgium when asked to answer a survey posing the same question also replied in an overwhelmingly positive manner . i want to repeat that it isn't the fact that we want to end the suffering of a child. which is outrageous. suffering itself that is outrageous what is outrageous is that all children are suffering because children are dying. what these are true is that there are children who are suffering from cancer what

we're doing is precisely preventing the scandal and thus preventing the suffering of these children and teenagers but we're still talking in general terms take us through an average case which ends in someone being here tonight what are they suffering from how long does the decision take. driven to exult grew. not fall i will give you an example at the local flavor a child is suffering from a cancer in a ball which you do particularly affects children i don't want to give an exact narcisse but we know about these cancers affecting children leukemia cancers for example. nothing do with him she we provide them with a chemical therapy and we provide them the second kemah ferric the third one by the day there comes a time for such patients that you both say but including for example the seeking

young people with brain tumors there comes a time where we can no longer ease the suffering and there is no hope for your number of us who've need nischelle we know that death will occur and it's coming soon that he exists a number of such cases exist here where law will fulfil where under these conditions these children cubit turn out to be more mature than many dolts pity them all but for subtly because they're facing disease precisely because these children are about to see if he does he even has his own full. well if you were did care a little since you're saying that there aren't so many cases then why bother with the law why not just go case by case basis because the minute this becomes a law if you know that there will be plenty of room for error for abuse because not all doctors are completely honest not all of them are totally professional or

dedicated to their profession and i'm sure that it could function well. listen quite frankly frankly i don't know who you are talking about on that katie nor a key there is a law in belgium that has existed for ten years we made a law that makes it possible for a doctor to make the last humane gesture for the patient who is suffering this is at the same time we stablished an evaluation commission to which all the phoenicia cases should be reported for ten years but there has been a regular report made by this commission that never has this commission found abuse because that is an important element and then you know those who talk about abuse i think that they have rarely faced this situation themselves. we know what it is like for a doctor or for a caregiver or for the families to point to take into account the year requests

there are being made by patients and relatives in case of an incurable disease the soon to be able to hear them out is going to respond to them positively and he will go full c.s. when we know what it means in terms of patient support the gesture is the gesture of euthanasia. i think that we finally realize that abuse cannot exist the bus because the burden of it is i would say the emotional empathetic burden thrilling to this gesture the six trimly important to keep and i believe that those who. actually there are those who for their reasons are obviously opposed to euthanasia. i want to recall that the laws in belgium and holland in luxembourg these laws. aereo freedom put in place guarantees to prevent

abuse but do not force anyone to make the gesture if they don't want to. still believe that when we talk about the specious that the adults or children or teenagers give these patients or request ethan e sure it is a very humane gesture to carry out their request. to take all the money it's about we're going to take a short break now i will be back with philip now a belgian senator and a proponent of the euthanasia for minors law to discuss turning to assisted suicide stay with us.

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and we're back with clinic now belgian senator supporter of fellow allowed euthanasia for minors a good to have you back at all mr mouw so just to precise there won't be any age restrictions in this law. if there are restrictions that are not connected to age tied to the understanding that the child or the teenager may have

a situation that's why we kept as a criterion the capacity for the sermon now the words we have to ask a psychologist psychiatry sed it was not connected to the situation to assess but if there were requests that is made by this miner that he saw there would be to suffering from an incurable disease after treatments that have become unnecessary if that request of it was made with full understanding is all full that is there were i repeat that we found that the maturity of the children who are this suffering the maturity of children facing facing death he's often greater than that of many adults so it's really the psychologists who decides on whether a child is in the right condition to decide on their own life right. exact that will don't conflict exactly but that's how it is written in the law. that's a person from the outside door said you know psychologist is psychiatry so what

determines if the moderate has an understanding of the situation if the model is making a request with which he or she is fully aware of the getting the mobile to. look and this minor can be four or sixteen right. well. it's hard obviously if you understand that a miner who is four years old is a bill to make a request of this nature being perfectly aware of what he's asking for that the set of all it's not the role of the legislator in any case to determine how these things could be evaluated by specialists we have a fact to be assurance that these specialists are able to determine if the child has this passage before understanding the naval command and you as a doctor what do you think at what age does a child become able to take such a serious decision. but if. you do understand that as

a legislator i have proposed that there be a report on the state of awareness so with child because he says you need. so. that there is right for this you know i would have suggested that we set it no big thing no we consulted with a bunch of specialists many of whom are doctors and psychologists that he could and we have consulted lawyers and the old told us that we should not introduce an age provision but instead he said what in this criterion of awareness is so they suggested this because they consider that each case is intimate. so it is impossible to determine an age limit they don't. so i can answer your question that so are kept the condition of awareness the ability of discernment who needed it that the seven want a cup of tea did you tell them separately what you know

a lot of people who oppose the low will tell you that minors don't have the right to drink or vote or get married but if they have an incurable disease does this really give them the confidence to make such an adult's decision. but i ma'am you're asking me if i know if a child is aware and capable of understanding he's a reverse situation put it can i would like to remind you we are not in the child's shoes it will predict we are not suffering from an incurable disease which causes pain by that yet for which multiple treatments were given that have led it's a nothing people wanted we have to remember this. so you know it's easy to have a definite answer to make a decision like that in the place of someone else when we are not in the same situation. we don't make decisions for those for whom we care for those who are working closely with patients those who know you know proud of they can actually

according to the law decide in their heart and conscience to respond to a formal request positively i think that's the right way to do it st that means not the legislator who will more mainly be at the bedside of children or adults who are suffering it is the medical personnel who will have to solve the problem but at least the law allows them to respond he mainly to those requests falls this is about the possibility for everyone to choose at some point not to accept this suffering and to say it a certain point because he says enough. he says he found consider that one can finally ask to die or that what the so that the suffering stops or nothing gets in the end if freedom is that it will be a freedom that is related to human rights humans in general. for centuries we the value to me more about the people who are condemned to death of

the never before they'd be pulled the executed for let's say offensive opinions the weren't just executed but don't be put to death with pain and only horrible suffering that if you fall that it did and well we follow a process that is exactly the opposite approach but you don't have a strong supporter of the abolition of the death penalty in all the countries of the world i'm opposed everywhere doctor and always to all forms of torture i'm opposed to the bell you mean i think that bain is pointless except when it is another. signal a signal of diagnosis. for the rest of the approach fits into a battle of go into vigil versus. a discussion of humanity against the precise of this vision of society a society that would condemn to death which would execute us we should tell you

spain our proof she's the next stage when we see that one can avoid the inevitability of this pain a few of the few but when it is unbearable well it is the duty of humanity to do so and to allow one to do so called of it discomfits of acute looks swan what are you going to do with the palliative care of i don't know everyone who works in the field will tell you that if there is a request for euthanasia and palliative care is available if you would no one ever choose its use an asia yeah on that but if the maps on the winners are made to cure it. well i will tell you this in two thousand and two when there was a vote on the law for the dolts i tabled legislation two pieces of legislation well this one of which involved the implementation of palliative care and the other concerning the possibility of patients benefiting from euthanasia and so my belief

shared by the majority of the population in the majority of the caregivers. in our country or region is to consider the implementation of pallets of care the robot is one but that's not because we have implemented pelleted care that automatically first this palette of the here eliminates any request for euthanasia so one does not exclude the other and then there is the freedom everyone seems to consider that at a certain point pelleted carry isn't enough not really want to clarify that if we you know as a doctor and caregiver firstly that poor old patients who come to consult what is the primary approach the pro choose to treat them will be and to try to heal them that's the primary approach it will be second approach if that's not possible if you still recognize at some point the source is not possible and that the disease is too strong and if we can't treat the disease patient must die we must

enable them to die in the most dignified way possible and to die in the most dignified way possible can be done either through palettes of care or through a request for euthanasia even the best bella to cure doesn't eliminate requests for euthanasia in any case it's their responsibility a choice which is left with each patient that's what's important the freedom of ethical laws allow in our society positive response based on individual choices based again about ethics seventy witnessed any cases where a doctor refused to use it in asia on a client yannick of he'll. maybe you know that you said of course you know there is no element of. the laws we are voting on keeping we open a space of freedom that makes it possible to give a positive response to request for within asia it will key to prove when we speak

of freedom we also speak of freedom of conscience for everyone feels kids and so it's provided for in the law that if a doctor refuses. to sleep has the right to do so. it is the conscience which dictates if he will accept it or not he's he's conscience that will tell him that he agrees to support it patient to the end or that he's unable to do it because of philosophical or religious imperatives of course there are refusals he said that in these cases when a patient makes a request and the doctor refuses in full and some do give up well i did some porton to continue to care about that means that when confronted with a patient's request if the doctor refuses the calls and i think he has the obligation to actually on their request to someone else because at some point he ultimately refuses to support his speech and yet still it's

a rule that applies not only here you know in medicine when we take on a patient but we have an obligation of responsibility focus that and when we can no longer provide this support we also have the obligation to see that this responsibility is covered by someone else. but get go into it one way because you don't see an ethical issue for example paying a doctor to and someone's life there is no i think a problem there. well listen we don't pay someone to end the life of someone else as if it was isolated it's never isolated and in fact if you talk of doctors are paid for giving care supporting people and if you mean man or a doctor or health care team is responsible for a patient each time a different individual and an individual who is suffering. there at the end of the

road when there is no way that support will use the essence self assuming responsibility one speech that up so what are you saying about payment courses i think that anything done professionally deserves compensation could thing otherwise much about your doctors receive payment for taking responsibility for their patients. and they understand what that responsibility entails. mile mr miles thank you very much for this interesting interview we're talking to phillip our belgian senator who is actually a proponent of the euthanasia in law for minors and it's been great talking to you and we'll speak to you in the next edition of.

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