oh and welcome to worlds apart it's been three here since the arab spring found that big conventional order in the middle east three years of high hopes and bitter disappointments of peaceful rallies and violent clashes of precarious peace and a full blown war three years on is the middle east closer to democracy that it was before the revolution well to discover that now joined by the former secretary general of the arab league amr moussa mr melissa thank you very much for your time thank you now three years ago you sided with the attacker a square protesters calling for political changes in egypt comparing the whole of syria have backed down both for him jeff and for the region as a whole what has happened since do you now feel proud disappointed or maybe

both well the. one you'll call it the spring i believe the it is a misnomer it is a movement for change it is a revolution against the old order so we have entered to even be out of will be in the middle east. have entered already a new phase in the political life of this region that is definitely against dictatorship and privet of democracy now the egypt for example moving according to a road map with a constitution written and approved by the people by the majority of the people we are about to start another phase which is electing the new president elect could be part of them and then. putting an end to the transitional period and go and rebuilding the country. so it needs time it's not

a question of three years and you used the word legacy it is too early to talk about legacy it is a process on going process but in toto i believe that this is in pivot of the future generations a revolution a firm stand against dictatorship it's interesting that you say that because your sound was cautiously optimistic assessment seems to be very different from the one that is often expressed by project activists in edge of people like for example. who like many prominent figures in that uprising now finds himself in jail and he just recently a road that quote everything collapsed and that january twenty fifth was exterminated that's what he wrote and he seems to be very passive mystic about the any prospect of positive democratic change coming to you egypt isn't it quite

a dramatic reversal of fortunes that people like assman like other projects ocracy after activist and now in detention at the same time while the man against whom this uprising was directed hosni mubarak is out of jail and under house arrest i see that you are sitting to some names you must have a. base of that name but the revolution has no leader and many of the revolution that is the young people the students there rest of the population is really. free and moving around and looking forward to a period of stability as for those detainees i believe like you that the b.p. should be accelerated in order to put an end to this phase however the government is now considering to. moved quickly to either to prison them to

the courts or to to free them so there is a process going on this point but i want you to bear in mind that there is a lot of violence against the society in universities and that's where this is and it troubled era and that is why there are certain things certain exceptional circumstances exceptional decisions. that are being taken he said previously bad that this revolution. historic process needs time and obviously you are very experienced diplomat you've seen a lot of things for all of your career and that may be one of the reasons why you're exercise this very patient the poet but i remember back in two thousand and eleven when i was talking to people in egypt later on in libya they had a very different time frame in mind it seemed that people back down seemed to

believe that if only mark or gadhafi had resigned life would have changed almost instantaneously an obviously that didn't happen whatever economic or social indicator we take life has gotten much more difficult for one day or a ordinary egyptians for ordinary libyans so do you think that was from the very beginning a case off and realistically high expectations or simply some of the arab societies not being ready or not being capable to seize that historic opportunity well that's a long question but the gist of it is that. sure of ourselves can we move forward yes indeed we are going to move forward but yet they don't i can't say that the revolutions have achieved their goals in changing the cannot make situation to the better or the stability introducing stability but as you see we have started the first point the first thing to do. two stubby allies this any

situation is to adopt a constitution and this constitution is a better good one i hope that you have read it so we are moving now we're told to study lies in this situation in order for us to be able to tackle the economic problems of the social problems those those are only three years and this is egypt of thousands of years so a no we cannot sit and said all right what happened in the last one thousand days of course a lot of negative things have happened and a change in the system of change and better jeem that a president that has not succeeded that his authority and when the people has been eroding by the day because of that inefficient way that the government of former president morsi. has done and we are now trying to introduce good management and deal with the outcome be negative outcome of that last. last

year now mr morsi you just mentioned saying i am voting on this new constitution which is indeed very beautiful many experts believe that you mentioned also your efforts to bring law and order to egypt but unfortunately the realities of what is happening in your country are not so all bright people are still being killed in violent clashes in egypt and not only in egypt they're also being killed in libya they're also being killed in syria in much greater numbers of course what i would like to ask is why do you think the arab societies were so ready to resort to violence and to why do they still rely on violence to settle that political scores yeah that this is a major mistake they are committing it is not a question of. opposition had it been just a position that was to peacefully diminished their most rape and make them sit in on. would have been

a good performance and even more effective opposition but using violence makes it necessary under government under the state to protect the interest of people of students driving it trying to study of people trying to go for one place or another this is a negative attitude of the muslim brotherhood and their supporters be to introduce the violence divergence creates breeds violence so this violence is again is democracy is against ability is against basically it's of the people let me remind you very in all humbleness that it wasn't the muslim brotherhood that initially resorted to violence i mean that was a charge against the former president hosni mubarak and some of the military authorities that he relied on back in two thousand and eleven that was one of the main reasons why he stepped down the using violence against the protesters so you cannot only point the finger at the muslim brotherhood it seems that violence in

and of itself has become a default option for many political forces within the egyptian society to rely on and how if it's indeed has become such in a trench pattern of using violence how can you how can you really move forward beyond what. another long question and defense of one party it is in our interests as egyptians to bring old together we are not. preventing any group including the muslim brotherhood from getting under the aegis of the constitution the of course of those who perpetrate violence could be. from their rank and file of the muslim brotherhood or any other group but violence is a crime against the society whoever is the perpetrator the government has to be firm

against those perpetrators of violence but to see that now that still is of course the country is in a deep stress and in a state of revolution and a lot of confrontations we are in a transitional period i agree that a certain things that have to be done would have been done or shouldn't have been done but this is the situation in the country as a country and out of a state of evolution a country in a state of change a country in a state of transition so all those things could happen mr morsi you just mentioned some of the challenges that it faces right now going economy. clashes violent clashes rising unemployment do you think that would you agree rather that all those three tumultuous years that made live for ordinary egyptians so difficult so challenging did those serious make them appreciate the stability of mubarak's

era a bit more all perhaps because of all those challenges that egyptians have experienced and the past three years maybe they have now become more sympathetic abit more positive view on one of the previous or former egyptian president tried to do in all his thirty years of being in power look at the so many things have been that the past so many negatives and you can find also poll. so tips but now we are looking forward looking to the future we're not getting back to what they got or iraq or old whatever system or a dream of the twenty first century we are moving a cold into that old saw of the game regionally and nationally at least ninety and internationally and we don't have to decide of closed out of the newspapers that are discussing issues like that but it is the the direction of the majority of the

people that will get a new president will get a new government and we'll have to tackle the economic problems as soon as we can i think once of the president is elected in the next. month or two months i believe things will start to settle and the movement would be very strict mr mason we have to take a short break now but when we come back the events in egypt inspired similar protests moments and libya and syria but each new uprising brought an average increasing death toll was all that loss of life worth a while that's coming up in a few moments on well the part. of the city's. first street. and i would think that your.

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limb . welcome back to worlds apart from riyadh discussing the legacy of the arab spring with the former secretary general of the arab lake mr melissa before we transition to other countries affected by the arab spring let me ask you a question about the role of the military authorities in egypt right now. clearly they have reasserted themselves as the protector of egypt once again and i would argue that something like this would have been pretty unimaginable back in two thousand and eleven because baghdad that uprising was at least partially directed against the military rule as well doesn't. that represent to

some extent that the trail of the ideals of that revolution the fact that the military has once again came to the four of the egyptian politics no after the doctrine of the constitution and the decision to organize the presidential elections within the timeframe stipulated by the constitution i believe that we will be we will be working towards the normal kind of regime and government and presidency so. you will certainly continue to perform its role as the as any of me would do to protect the sovereignty of the country as for the next elections the stated we are waiting for the decision marshall. sisi to you leave the army to resign and to run for elections. as that he is not

is not going to run as commander in chief are you going to run as a former officer in the army and will you run in accordance with the preconditions of stipulated in be constitution so we're not talking about the army governing we have doesn't about democracy go well we're also talking about. the army intervening in the political affairs and let me ask you a hypothetical question what if the next elections bring to power you know some political force that they army doesn't like will they have to intervene again isn't a question that is it will be controversial that is either too would be clear you were elected mr x. or mr y. and they are it is on its have to be respected this is democracy and that people would respect to the result of democracy whoever is elected we will accept that is out of elections those elections will be organized within the framework of transparency and the observers from abroad and from the population and from that

egypt but will the winner of those elections allowed to serve full term of about the army delivering any of judgment on whether he or she has been efficient enough to serve the country which it is the case that you've been making against president morsi that his letter she wasn't efficient enough even though he was never allowed to fall to serve until the end of his term i'm sorry to tell you that you are assuming things. perhaps occulting certain sources. trying to confuse the situation dalles. presidential elections followed by parliamentary elections once the president is elected he is the president yes to the country according to the authorities stipulated for him as in the constitution but the parliament will follow will follow immediately it will have the legislative power so the army has nothing to do with either post neither president noted the parliament unless the

opposite one officer or more that have resigned in order to join the civilian life this is within no more than six months from last january would there would be a constitution a president a parliament and a government approved by their. parliament not only appointed by the president but has to be approved by the parliament this is a full democratic operation and that's what we are looking forward to and i want you to know that and thank you for giving giving me the opportunity to explain that it is not a question of bellamy as some with the newspapers continue to say. me i want you to say election election election mr musser i would like to switch gears a little bit and to ask you not about your own country but rather about your neighbor levy rich is about to celebrate the third anniversary of its all of revolution on february seventeenth and you seem to believe quite strongly that egypt is moving in the right direction i wonder if you feel the same way about

because three years down the line levy still lacks a democratically elected government it still lacks a constitution if still replace. all the shots also believe so so you believe that levy is moving towards democracy as well yes indeed they are moving this is as i told you this is a movement of change across the arab world and they based movement of change is not going to have a u. turn in order to get back to the era of gadhafi or others no all countries including libya is moving towards the future. however setbacks there are some slow pace in the changes that are but it is the right to own that i tracked and in the right direction but you know that change could bear for better or for worse and i just wonder whether the change that we're seeing in libya or in syria indeed are indeed for better because just

a couple of weeks ago five gyptian diplomats were abducted fall within the egyptian embassy in tripoli in libya something like that could have never happened on the gadhafi regime so at least on some levels when it comes to a lawyer in order life on the gadhafi was a far more predictable i wonder how can you talk about democracy when most political scores are being settled by militia who know. about ever we are talking about constitution about promoting normal situation that era of qaddafi is finished now our friends and brothers in gibeah will have to rebuild their own life so how can they build their own life except in coordination with the rest of their neighbors and brotherly countries from to their east and west both countries egypt and tunisia has worked according to him up they brought the constitution

first the presidential elections second the parliamentary elections third so both countries are doing the right and left a moving event that action i believe that d.b.l. with the same growth perhaps a tougher. more problems but in the end i am sure that all of those countries that are of today in distress when they get back to the normal route as egypt and tunisia ugly well you seem to be a quite an optimist let me ask you something different in all these three countries that imagines a fart lou. syria you often hear claims that people's revolutions were hijacked either by extremists or by the outsiders and i guess there is some validity to that claim because a lot of outside players remain involved in the affairs of the arab world russia the united states turkey saudi arabia you name it to what extent in your view does

the success of the arab spring depend on the people in the region on the arabs and to what extent it still depends on the big power brokers who are trying to pursue that own agenda well this is that is all of the effects of the absence of egypt. egypt as the leader of the arab world had not been in the picture order in action for so many for though at least those three years plus as as you say and you are right in saying so that the whole middle east is. subject to change and with the influence of foreign powers and i assure you that whatever the foreign powers decide. concerning the middle east will not be approved and will not be stabilized and will not stay unless the arab people accept and out

of people approve and unless egypt is in and saying yes or saying no the influence of the outside powers is getting stronger now because of the absence of a major country like egypt but i assure you bay area will not be decided by iran or by turkey or by russia or by america in europe in the absence of the real power in this region which is the arab world we are the majority of the population and egypt is the biggest one mr muscle you just mentioned the absence of egypt to air on their political landscape i faced over the past three years a saw but there are at least two countries that whose presence in politics have has been increasing dramatically and i'm talking here about sag a saudi arabia and qatar both arab countries both have a very rigid and somewhat. backward looking political system and yet over the past

three here is those countries have become much stronger much more assertive politically and i wonder since you have talked so much about a positive democratic change a change for the better what are the chances of genuine democratic change in the region where these two. decidedly democratic regimes command so much power so much money and so much authority and when they talk about change change is not one. system or one way the change in tunis and egypt has its own style guide change in yemen has another one in syria and libya unfortunately is taking a very negative way but it will improve anyway eventually it will improve in other arab countries the efforts to change it could be peaceful and they hope it will be peaceful so that this change what i'm saying is that change is

a process that will take place across the board in the arab world and the middle east but change to the better looking to the future linking up with the twenty first century is a must there is no difference here between egypt or saudi arabia or qatar or emmett's or morrocco and this one was a i have only one minute left and let me clarify my question i wasn't asking you about the change with them saudi arabia or the change with them qatar i was asking you about efforts that both saudi arabia and qatar have applied to change other countries to change syria you know better than i do that saudi arabia finances a lot of. insurgency let's call it that way insurgency activity in serious i would call it terrorism saudi arabia also has an interest in egypt saudi arabia also has an interest in libya and unfortunately they have a lot of money

a lot of power to imply vision for those countries so they are not giving really the people of. their own choice there they're trying to implement. leave they have a lot of money. well why do you see a lot of money as a misfortune this is a photo and saudi arabia and its and other gulf countries in fact taking a lot of steps to help the arab world and the development of the investment and so on so i don't see i don't share your view without their say unfortunately so you see the saudi i see to this idea as i was the manager of the help the aid for the by saudi arabia to egypt he said in the polls that but what about the how band aid offered by saudi arabia to syria and here i mean specifically financing arms and you know training and or sending people to fight in syria do you do you feel good about as i don't think at the moment but nope look if you want to talk

about syria when we're talking about the role of the united states about all over russia they ought to broaden it i mean under all and so on so i'm sort of if you want to open the file let us open it and talk about the old so bold those involved well that's added that's probably an idea for another program mr most unfortunate this is all we have time for i for active and to our viewers if you like the show please join us again same place same time here on worlds apart. that's obviously one of the russian also for the continuation of nature they want

to sell the american hard tech weaponry aircraft submarines missile i was all the rest of it to new countries new or new markets expanding markets because most of these countries of course were large previously on circuit equipment seeing the. nato's rationale is still a much more politico and city chick than certainly economic the bogen between the europeans who wants to go with the united states remain committed to their security and the united states who want to see a gripping story no no we are like you just i could jump in and ask you could if i could jump in and ask you i mean they want washington because they want the american taxpayer to pay for it because the united states pays the vast majority of the bill for nato so this is free riding that's what they want do you know that they don't want they're not the security of this is really an evolution is this they want someone else in times of austerity particularly now with the american taxpayer picking up the american defense industries would be more than happy to do it. wealthy british style.

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fly a transit route to vnukovo report your best way to the heart of moscow. the headlines this hour on r.t. thrilling and intense american security. over russia in the men's ice hockey match after a dramatic penalty shoot out at the winter games. care every minute made count for a russian pilot in a u.s. base and after he was allegedly refused medical care despite his wife and lawyer saying he is critically ill. of the sliding scale of justice in israel seven arabs claim their prosecutions were motivated by their ethnicity citing examples of jews who freely admitted killings but were not tried for. oh there's more on the all of those stories online and r t dot com we continue our coverage of the sochi winter olympics next hour but before that it's breaking the set with our host country martin right.