out of a spring i believe the it is a misnomer it is a movement for change it is a revolution against the old order so we have entered we in the arab world in the middle east. have entered already a new phase in the political life of this region that change is definitely against dictatorship and in favor of democracy now the in egypt for example moving according to a road map with a constitution written and approved by the people by the majority of the people we are about to start another phase which is electing the new president and elected to parliament then. putting an end to the transitional period and go on and rebuilding the country so it needs time it's not a question of three years and you used the word legacy it is too early to talk

about legacy it is a process on going process but in toto i believe that this is in paper of the future generations a revolution a firm stand against dictatorship it's interesting that you say that because your sound was cautiously optimistic assessment seems to be very different from the one that is often expressed by. the activist in edge of people like for example. who like many prominent figures and that uprising now finds himself in jail and he just recently a road that quote everything collapsed and that january twenty fifth was exterminated that's what he wrote and he seems to be very passive mistake about the any prospect of positive democratic change coming to egypt isn't it quite a dramatic reversal of fortunes that people. like i ask with my heart like other

pro-democracy after activist i'm now in detention at the same time while the man against whom this uprising was directed hosni mubarak is out of jail and under house arrest i see that you are sifting through some names you must have a. base of that name but the revolution has no leader and many of the revolutionaries the young people the students there rest of the population is really. free and moving around and looking forward to a period of stability as for those detainees i believe like you that the b.p. should be accelerated in order to put an end to this phase however the government is now considering to. move quickly to either to present them to the courts or to to free them so there is

a process going on on this point but i want you to bear in mind that there is a lot of violence against the society in universities and that's where this is and it troubled era and that is why there are certain things certain exceptional circumstances exceptional decisions. that are being taken he said previously that the this revolution this historic process needs time and obviously you are very experienced diplomats here say in a lot of things throughout your career and that may be one of the reasons why your exercise this very patient approach but i remember back in two thousand and eleven when i was talking to people in egypt later on in libya they had a very different time frame in mind it seemed that people back down seemed to believe that if only moammar core get off he had resigned law. i would have changed

almost instantaneously and obviously that didn't happen whatever economic or social indicator we take life has gotten much more difficult for one day or a ordinary egyptians for ordinary libyans so do you think that was from the very beginning a case off and realistically high expectations or simply some of the arab societies not being ready or not being capable to seize that historic opportunity well that's a long question but the gist of it is that. i was sure of ourselves can we move forward yes indeed we are going to move forward but yet i can't say that the the revolutions have achieved their goals in changing the condemning situation to the better or de stability introducing stability but as you see we have started the first point the first thing to do to stop the lies days any situation is to adopt a constitution and this constitution is a better good one i hope that you have read it so we are moving now we are told to

stand by lies in this situation old to for us to be able to tackle the economic problems of the social problems because those are only three is and this is egypt of thousands of years so a note we cannot sit and said all right what happened in the last one thousand days of course a lot of negative things have happened and a change in the system a change in that e.g. that the president that has not succeeded that. his authority and when the people has been eroding by the day because of that in the fish and two way that the government of former president morsi. has done and we are now trying to introduce good management and deal with the outcome be negative outcome of that last. last year now mr morsi you just mentioned saying i'm voting on the. new

constitution which is indeed very beautiful it written many experts believe that you mentioned also your efforts to bring law and order to egypt but unfortunately the realities of what is happening in your country are not so all bright people are still being killed in violent clashes in egypt and not only in egypt they're also being killed in libya they're also being killed in syria in much greater numbers of course what i would like to ask is why do you think the arab societies were so ready to resort to violence and to why do they still rely on violence to settle that political scores yeah that this is a major mistake they are committing it is not a question of. opposition had it been a just opposition to peacefully didn't post their most rape and then make them sit in. it would have been a good performance and even more effective opposition but using violence

makes it necessary under government under the state to protect the interests of people of students that driving it trying to study of people trying to go for one place to another this is a negative attitude of the muslim brotherhood and their supporters be to introduce violence divergence creates breeds violence so this violence is again is democracy is against ability is against basic rights of the people let me remind you very in all humbleness that it wasn't the muslim brotherhood that initially resorted to violence i mean that was a charge against the former president hosni mubarak and some of the military authorities that he relied on back in two thousand and eleven that was one of the main reasons why he stepped down the using violence against the protesters so you cannot only point the finger at the muslim brotherhood it seems that violence in and of itself has become. default option for many political forces within the

egyptian society to rely on and how if it's indeed has become such an a trench pattern of using violence how can you how can you really move forward beyond what. another long question and defense of one party it is in our interests as egyptians to bring old together without a note. preventing any group including the muslim brotherhood from getting under the aegis of the constitution the of course or those who perpetrate violence could be. from there and can file of the muslim brotherhood or any other group but violence is a crime against the society whoever is the perpetrator the government has to be firm against those perpetrators of violence but to see that now there is still

violations of course the country is in a deep stress and in a state of revolution and a lot of confrontations we are in a transitional period i agree that does certain things that have to be done or should have been done over shouldn't have been done but this is the situation in the country as a country and out of a state of evolution a country in a state of change a country in a state of transition so all those things could happen mr morsi you just mentioned some of the challenges that face us right now tumbling economy. clashes violent clashes rising unemployment do you think that would you agree rather that all those three tumultuous years that made live for ordinary egyptians so difficult so challenging. make them appreciate the stability of mubarak's era a bit more all perhaps because of all those challenges that egyptians have experienced

and the past three years maybe they have now become more sympathetic everything a positive view on what the previous owner former egyptian president tried to do in all his thirty years of being in power look at the so many things have been that the past so many negatives and you can find also pay. as attempts but now we are looking forward looking to the future well no getting back to what they got or era over whatever system or to dream of the twenty first century we are moving into that holds all of the game regionally nationally at least in that he and internationally and we don't have to this of course the out of the newspapers that are discussing issues like that but it is the the badakhshan of the majority of the people that will get a new president will get a new government and we'll have to tackle the economic problems as soon as we can

and i think once that the president is elected in the next. month or two months i believe things will start to settle and the movement will be very strict mr must and we have to take a short break now but when we come back the events in egypt inspired similar protests moments in libya and syria but each new uprising brought an average increasing death toll was all that loss of life worth it well that's coming up in a few moments on while the part. of the. economic downturn in the final. days on the deal

sank night and the rest it's a meet a prickly. wealthy british. plenty markets why not sit around the find out what's really happening to the global economy with max cause or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to kaiser report. to. me it was a. very hard to take a look once again there is

a plane flight pattern that x.x. would that hurt their feelings let's call it. a little bit close. to the flames if. one of the people. welcome back to worlds apart from riyadh discussing the legacy of the arab spring with the former secretary general of the arab lake amr moussa mr listen before we

transition to other countries affected by the arab spring let me ask you a question about the role of the military authorities in egypt right now. clearly they have reasserted themselves as the protector of egypt once again and i would argue that something like this would have been pretty unimaginable back in two thousand and eleven because baghdad that uprising was at least partially directed against the military rule as well doesn't. that represent to some extent that the trail of the ideals of that revolution the fact that the military has once again came to defy war of the egyptian politics no after the adoption of the constitution and the decision to organize the presidential elections within the timeframe stipulated by the constitution i believe that we will be we would be moving towards the normal kind of energy and

government and presidency so the army will certainly continue to perform its role as the as any of me would do to protect the sovereignty of the country as for the next elections the stated we are waiting for the decision that we have marshal. sisi to do you leave me to resign and to run for elections. not as though he is not is not going to run as commander in chief are you going to run as a former officer in the army and will run in accordance with the preconditions of stipulated in be constitution so we're not talking about the army governing we are talking about democracy go well we're also talking about the. the army intervening in the political affairs and let me ask you a hypothetical question what if the next elections bring to power you know some political force that the army doesn't like will they have to intervene again isn't

a question that is it will be controversial that is either too would be clear you were left to mr x. or mr y. and there it is on its have to be respected this is democracy and the people who would respect to the result of democracy whoever is elected we will accept that as of the elections both elections will be organized within the framework of transparency and the observers from abroad and from the population and from that egypt but will the winner of those elections allowed to serve full term of about the army delivering any of judgment on whether he or she has been efficient enough to serve the country which it is the case that you've been making against president morsi that his later she wasn't efficient enough even though he was never allowed to fly to serve until the end of his term i'm sorry to tell you that you are assuming things. perhaps quoting certain sources. trying to confuse the situation they'll have presidential elections followed by parliamentary elections

once the president is elected he is the president yes to the country according to the authorities stipulated for him as in the constitution but the parliament will follow will follow immediately it will have the legislative power so the army has nothing to do with either post neither president nor the parliament unless the opposite one officer or more that have resigned in order to join the civilian life this is within no more than six months from last january with there will be a constitution a president a parliament and a government approved by there will be. parliament not only appointed by the president but has to be approved by by the parliament this is a full democratic operation and that's what we are looking forward to and i want you to know that and thank you for giving giving me the opportunity to explain that

it is not a question of me as some with the newspapers continue to say. i want you to say election election election mr musser i would like to switch gears a little bit and to ask you not about your own country but rather about your neighbor libya reaches about to celebrate the third anniversary of its all revolution on february seventeenth and you seem to believe quite strongly that egypt is moving in the right direction i wonder if you feel the same way about elite there because three years down the line libya still lacks a democratically elected government it still lacks a constitution is still a place. all the shots. will believe so so you believe that levy is moving towards democracy as well yes indeed they are unmovic this is as i told you this is a movement of change across the arab world and they this movement of change is not going to have a u. turn in order to get back to the era of gadhafi or others no old countries

including libya is moving towards the future. however setbacks they are there's some slow pace in the changes that are but it is in the right to own that i tracked and in the right direction but you know that change could bear for better or for worse and i just wonder whether the change that we're seeing in libya or in syria indeed are indeed for better because just a couple of weeks ago five gyptian diplomats were abducted from the web in the egyptian embassy in tripoli in libya something like that could have never happened on the gadhafi regime so at least on some levels when it comes to a lawyer in order life under gadhafi was far more predictable i wonder how can you talk about democracy when most political scores are being settled by militia who know. ever we are talking about constitution about

promoting normal situation that era of qaddafi is finished now our friends and brothers in gibeah will have to rebuild their own life so how can they build their own life except in coordination with the rest of their neighbors and brotherly countries from to their east and west both countries egypt and tunisia has worked according to him up they brought the constitution first the presidential elections second the parliamentary elections third so both countries are doing the right and left a moving event and action i believe that d.b.l. with the same growth perhaps a tougher. more problems but in the end i am sure that all of those countries that are today in distress when they get back to the normal road as egypt and tunisia ugly well you seem to be a quite an optimist let me ask you something different in all these three countries

that imagines a foreigner. syria you often hear claims that people's revolutions were hijacked either by extremists or by the outsiders and i guess there is some validity to that claim because a lot of outside players remain involved in the affairs of the arab world russia the united states turkey saudi arabia you name it to what extent in your view does the success of the arab spring depend on the people in the region on the arabs and to what extent it still depends on the big power brokers who are trying to pursue that own agenda well this is that is all of the effects of the absence of egypt. egypt as the leader of the arab world had not been in the picture or in action for so many for though at least those three years plus as

as you say and you are right in saying so that the whole middle east is. subject to change and with the influence of foreign powers and i assure you that whatever the foreign powers decide. concerning the middle east will not be approved and will not be stability and will not stay unless the arab people accept and out of people approve and unless egypt is in and saying yes or saying no the influence of the outside powers is getting stronger now because of the absence of a major country like egypt but i assure you bay area will not be decided by iran or by turkey or by russia oh by america in europe in the absence of the real power in this region which is the arab world we are the majority of the population and

egypt is the biggest one mr was a you just mentioned the absence of egypt on their political landscape i faced over the past three years a saw but there are at least two countries that whose presence in politics have has been increasing dramatically and i'm talking here about sag a saudi arabia and qatar both arab countries both have a very rigid and somewhat. backward looking political system and yet over the past three here is those countries have become much stronger much more assertive politically and i wonder since you have talked so much about a positive democratic change a change for the better what are the chances of genuine democratic change in the region where these two. decidedly undemocratic regimes command so much power so much money and so much authority and when they talk about change change is not one

system or one way the change in tunis and egypt has its own style change in yemen has another one in syria and libya and this taking a very negative way but it will improve anyway eventually it will improve in other arab countries their efforts to change it could be peaceful and they hope it will be peaceful so that this change or them saying is that change is a process that will take place across the board in the arab world and the middle east but change to the better looking to the future linking up with the twenty first century is a must there is no difference here between egypt or saudi arabia or qatar or emmett's or more vocal it's less and less of a i have only one minute left and let me clarify my question i wasn't asking you about the change with then saudi arabia or the change with them qatar i was asking you about efforts that both saudi arabia and qatar have applied to change other

countries to change syria you know better than i do that saudi arabia finances a lot of. insurgency let's call it that way insurgency activity is in serious i would call it terrorism saudi arabia also has interest in egypt saudi arabia also has an interest in libya and unfortunately they have a lot of money a lot of power to employ a man died vision for those countries so they're not giving really the people of. their own choice there they're trying to implement. it leave they have a lot of money. well why do you see a lot of money as a misfortune this is a photo and saudi arabia and emirates and other gulf countries in fact taking a lot of steps to help the arab world and the development of the investment and so

on so i don't see i don't share your view without their say unfortunately so you see the saudi i see to it all seems this idea as i was listening to the fall of the aid for the by saudi arabia to egypt is set in the polls that but what about the how band aid offered by saudi arabia to syria and here i mean specifically financing of arms and you know training and or sending people to fight in syria do you do you feel the book about as i don't know the land but ok look if you want to talk about syria when we're talking about the role of the united states about all over russia they ought to broaden the iranian role and so on so i'm sort of if you want to open the file that's open it and talk about their own so bold those involved well that's added that's probably an idea for another program mr most unfortunately this is all we have time for i finish if your perspective and tell our viewers if you like michelle please join us again same place same time here on worlds apart.

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a transit route to vnukovo your best way to the heart of moscow. and ice hockey thriller steals the show in sochi with arch rivals russia and the united states facing off in a close father battle decided on penalties. a russian pilot jailed in the us says he's in a critical condition and man a not live beyond the weekend while moscow's pleas for medical intervention are ignored. also this week the second round of syrian peace talks has broken off with the opposition pushing for regime change and western powers blaming president asad meanwhile serious conflict continues to spill over into lebanon. and your interview. with piers. r.t. it.