oh and welcome to worlds apart it's been three here since the arab spring pounded big conventional order in the middle east three years of high hopes and bitter disappointments of peaceful rallies and violent clashes a precarious peace and a full blown war three years on is the middle east closer to democracy that it was before the revolution well to discover that now i'm joined by the former secretary general of the arab league amr moussa mr melissa thank you very much for your time thank you now three years ago you sided with the attacker a square protesters calling for political changes in egypt comparing their hopes you had backed down both for him jeff and for the region as a whole to what has happened since do you now feel proud disappointed and maybe both well the. or you'll call it the other spring i believe the it is

a misnomer it is a movement for change it is a revolution against the old order so we have entered we in the out of the world in the middle east. have entered already a new phase in the political life of this region that is definitely against dictatorship and improvement of democracy now the in egypt for example moving according to a road map with a constitution written and approved by the people by the majority of the people we are about to start another phase which is electing the new president elected to parliament and then. putting them into the transitional period and go on and rebuilding the country so it needs time is. not

a question of three years and you used the word legacy it is too early to talk about legacy it is a process on going process but in toto i believe that this is in paper of the future generations a revolution a firm stand against dictatorship it's interesting that you say that because your sound was cautiously optimistic assessment seems to be very different from the one that is often expressed by pro-democracy activists in edge of people like for example ahmed mahara who like many prominent figures and that uprising now finds himself in jail and he just recently a road that quote everything collapsed and that january twenty fifth was exterminated that's what he wrote and he seems to be very passive mystic about the any prospect of positive democratic change coming to you egypt isn't it quite

a dramatic reversal of fortunes that people like achmet model like other pro-democracy after activist are now in detention at the same time while the man against whom this uprising was directed hosni mubarak is out of jail and under house arrest i see that you are sifting through some names you must have a. base of that name but the revolution has no leader and many of the revolutionaries the young people the students there rest of the population is really. free and moving around and looking forward to a period of stability as for those detainees i believe like you that the b.p. should be accelerated in order to put an end to this phase however the government is now considering to. move quickly too. either to prison them to

the courts or to to free them so there is a process going on this point but i want you to bear in mind that there is a lot of violence against the society in universities and that's where this is and had a troubled era and that is why there are certain things certain exceptional circumstances exceptional decisions. that are being taken you said previously bad this revolution. historic process needs time and obviously you are very experienced diplomats here say in a lot of things for all of your career and that may be one of the reasons why your exercise this very patient approach but i remember back in two thousand and eleven when i was talking to people in egypt later on in libya they had a very different time frame in mind it seemed that people back down seemed to believe that if only moammar core gadhafi had resigned life would have changed

almost instantaneously and obviously that didn't happen whatever economic or social indicator we take life has gotten much more difficult for one day or a ordinary egyptians for ordinary libyans so do you think that was from the very beginning a case off and realistically high expectations or simply some of the arab societies not being ready or not being capable to seize that historic opportunity well that's a long question but that the gist of it is that. sure of ourselves can we move forward yes indeed we are going to move forward but yet i can't say that the the revolutions have achieved their goals in changing the going to make situation to the better or the stability introducing stability but as you see we have started the first point the first thing to do to stop the lies days any is. if you action

is to adopt a constitution and this constitution is a better good one i hope that you have read it so we are moving now with the old system belies in this situation in order for us to be able to tackle the economic problems of the social problems those those are only three years and this is egypt of thousands of years so a no we cannot sit and sit or right what happened in the last one thousand days of course a lot of negative things have happened and a change in the system of change and better jeem that a president that has not succeeded that. his authority and window if you will has been eroding by the day because of that in the fish and two way that the government of president morsi. has done and we are now trying to introduce good management and deal with the outcome be negative outcome of that last. last

year now mr morsi you just mentioned saying i'm voting on this new constitution which is indeed very beautiful many experts believe that you mentioned also your efforts to bring law and order to egypt but unfortunately the realities of what is happening in your country are not so all bright not so aspirational people are still being killed in violent clashes in egypt and not only in egypt they're also being killed in libya they're also being killed in syria in much greater numbers of course what i would like to ask is why do you think the arab societies were so ready to resort to violence and to why do they still rely on violence to settle that political scores yeah that this is a major mistake they are committing it is not a question of. opposition had it been just a position that was to peacefully diminish their most rape and make their sit ins and so on it would have been a. good performance and even more effective opposition but using violence

makes it necessary under government under the state to protect the interests of people of students that are driving it trying to study of people trying to go for one place to another this is a negative attitude of the muslim brotherhood and their supporters the do introduce the violence the violence creates breeds violence so there's violence is again is democracy is against ability is against basic rights of the people let me remind you very in all humbleness that it wasn't the muslim brotherhood that initially resorted to violence i mean that was a charge against the former president hosni mubarak and some of the military authorities that he relied on back in two thousand and eleven that was one of the main reasons why he stepped down the using violence against the protesters so you cannot only point the finger at the muslim brotherhood it seems that violence in

and of itself has become a default option for many political forces within the egyptian society to rely on and how if it's indeed has become such in a trench pattern of using violence how can you how can you really move forward beyond. another long question and defense of one party it is in our interest as egyptians to bring old together we are not. preventing any group including the muslim brotherhood from getting under the aegis of the constitution the of course or those who perpetrate violence could be. from there and can file of the muslim brotherhood or any other group but violence is a crime against the society whoever is the perpetrator the government has to be firm against those perpetrators of violence but to see that no there is still

violations of course the country is in a deep stress and in a state of revolution and a lot of confrontations we are in a transitional period i agree that certain things that have to be done would have been done or shouldn't have been done but this is the situation in the country a country and out of a state of evolution a country in a state of change a country in a state of transition so all those things could happen mr morsi you just mentioned some of the challenges that face us right now going economy. clashes violent clashes rising unemployment do you think that would you agree rather that all those three tumultuous year that made live for ordinary egyptians so difficult such challenging. serious make them appreciate the stability of mubarak's

era a bit more all perhaps because of all those challenges that egyptians have experienced and the past three years maybe they have now become more sympathetic everything a positive view on what the previous owner former egyptian president tried to do in all his thirty years of being in power look at the so many things have been that the past so many negatives and you can find also pay. as attempts but now we are looking forward looking to the future we're not getting back to what they're good at or iraq or old whatever system or to dream we are the twenty first century we are moving a cold into that holds all of the game regionally and nationally at least ninety and internationally and we don't have to decide of post out of the newspapers that are discussing issues like that but it is the the badakhshan of the majority of the people that will get a new president will get

a new government and will have to tackle the economic problems as soon as we can when city president is elected in the next. month or two months i believe things will start to settle and the movement will be very straight mr mr we have to take a short break now but when we come back the events in egypt inspired similar protests moments in libya and syria but each new uprising brought an average increasing death toll was all that loss of life worth have well that's coming up in a few moments on while the part.

transit through to vnukovo report you'll best way to the heart of moscow. economic downturns in the final. days and on the field night and the rest of life it's a neat it will be extremely. welcome

back to worlds apart from riyadh discussing the legacy of the arab spring with the former secretary general of the arab lake mr wilson to form a transition team to other countries affected by the arab spring let me ask you a question about the role of the military authorities in egypt right now. clearly they have reasserted themselves as the protector of egypt once again and i would argue that something like this would have been pretty unimaginable back in two thousand and eleven because back down that uprising was at least partially directed against the military rule as well doesn't. that represent to some extent of the trail of the ideals of that revolution the fact that the military has once again came to define war of the egyptian politics no i started at the doctrine of the constitution and the decision to organize the

presidential elections within the timeframe stipulated by the constitution i believe that we will be we would be working towards the normal kind of energy and government and presidency so. you would certainly continue to perform its role as the as any of me would do to protect to be sovereignty of the country as for the next elections the stage we. waiting for the decision of marshal. sisi to leave the army to resign and to run for elections. not as though he's not he's not going to run as commander in chief or you're going to run as a former officer in the army and will run in accordance with the preconditions of stipulated in be constitution so we're not talking about the army governing we have doesn't about democracy govern well we're also talking about the army intervening in the political affairs and let me ask you

a hypothetical question what if the next elections bring to power you know some political force that their army doesn't like will they have to intervene again isn't a question that is it will be controversial that is either to be clear you were elected mr x. or mr y. and they are it is on its have to be respected this is democracy and the people who would respect to the result of democracy whoever is elected we will accept that is out the elections both elections will be organized within the framework of transparency and the observers from abroad and from the population and from that egypt but will the winner of those elections allowed to serve full term of about the army delivering any of judgment on whether he or she has been efficient enough to serve the country which it is the case that you've been making against president morsi that his later show wasn't efficient enough even though he was never allowed to fall to serve until the end of his term i'm sorry to tell you that you are

assuming things. perhaps occulting certain sources. trying to confuse the situation they'll. presidential elections followed by parliamentary elections once the president is elected he is the president yes the road the country according to the authority has stipulated for him as in the constitution but the parliament. will follow will follow immediately it will have the legislative power so the army has nothing to do with either post neither president nor the parliament unless the opposite one officer or more that have resigned in order to join the civilian life this is that within no more than six months from last january there will be a constitution a president a parliament and a government approved by there at the parliament not only appointed by the

president but has to be approved by the parliament this is a full democratic operation and that's what we are looking forward to and i want you to know that and thank you for giving giving me the opportunity to explain that it is not a question of the army as some with the newspapers continue to say. i want you to say election election election mr moussa i would like to switch gears a little bit and to ask you not about your own country but rather about your neighbor leaves a rich is about to celebrate the third anniversary of its all revolution on february seventeenth and you seem to believe quite strongly that egypt is moving in the ride to a direction i wonder if you feel the same way about elite there because three years down the line libya still lacks a democratically elected government it still lacks a constitution is still a place. called the shots also believe so so you believe that levy is moving towards democracy as well yes indeed they are moving the base is as i told you this

is a movement of change across the arab world and they this movement of change is not going to have a u. turn in order to get back to the era of gadhafi or others no old countries including libya is moving towards the future. however setbacks there are some slow pace in the changes that are but it is the right to own that i tracked and in the right direction but you know that change could be there for better or for worse and i just wonder whether the change that we're seeing in libya or in syria indeed are indeed for better because just a couple of weeks ago five and gyptian diplomats were abducted from the web in the egyptian embassy in tripoli in libya something like that could have never happened on the gadhafi regime so at least on some levels when it comes to a lawyer in order life under gadhafi was far more predictable i wonder how can you talk about democracy while most political scores are being settled by militia who

know. about ever we are talking about constitution about promoting normal situation that you know of qaddafi is finished now our friends and brothers in gibeah will have to rebuild their own life so how can they build their own life except in coordination with the rest of their neighbors and brotherly countries from to their east and their west both countries egypt and tunisia has worked according to him up they brought the constitution first the presidential elections second the parliamentary elections third so both countries are doing the right and left moving event and action i believe that d.b.l. with the same growth perhaps a tougher. more problems but in the end i am sure that all of those countries

that are today in distress when they get back to the normal road as egypt and tunisia agree well you seem to be a quite an optimist let me ask you something different in all these three countries that imagines a fart lou. syria you often hear claims that people's revolutions were hijacked either by extremists or by the outsiders and i guess there is some validity to that claim because a lot of outside players remain involved in the affairs of the arab world russia the united states turkey saudi arabia you name it to what extent in your view does the success of the arab spring depend on the people in the region on the arabs and to what extent it still depends on the big power brokers who are trying to pursue that own agenda well this is that is all of the effects of the

absence of egypt. egypt as the leader of the arab world had not been in the picture or in action for so many for though at least those three years plus as as you say and you are right in saying so that the whole middle east is. subject to change and with the influence of foreign powers and i assure you that whatever the foreign powers decide. concerning the middle east will not be approved and will not be stability and will not stay unless the arab people accept and out of people approve and unless egypt is in and saying yes oh saying no the influence of the outside powers is getting stronger now because of the absence of a major country like egypt but i assure you the area will not be decided by iran

by turkey or by russia or by america in europe in the absence of the real power in this region which is the arab world we are the majority of the population and egypt is the biggest one mr was a you just mentioned the absence of egypt on their political landscape i faced over the past three years of saud but there are at least two countries that whose presence in politics have has been increasing dramatically and i'm talking here about sag a saudi arabia and qatar both arab countries both have a very rigid and somewhat. backward looking political system and yet over the past three hears those countries have become much stronger much more assertive politically and i wonder since you have talked so much about a positive democratic change a change for the better what are the chances of genuine democratic change in the region where these two. decidedly undemocratic regimes command so much power so

much money and so much authority and when they talk about change change is not one system or one way the change in tunis and egypt has its own style change in yemen has another one in syria and libya unfortunately is taking a very negative way but it will improve anyway eventually it will improve in other arab countries the efforts to change it could be peaceful and they hope it will be peaceful so that this change or them saying is that change is a process that will take place across the board in the arab world and the middle east but change to the better looking to the future linking up with the twenty first century is a must there is no difference here between egypt or saudi arabia or qatar or minutes or more o. codes and this unless i have only one minute left and let me clarify my question i

wasn't asking you about the change with them saudi arabia or the change with them qatar i was asking you about efforts that both saudi arabia and qatar have applied to change other countries to change syria and you know better than i do that saudi arabia finances a lot of. insurgency let's call it that way insurgency activity is in serious i would call it terrorism saudi arabia also has an interest in egypt saudi arabia also has an interest in libya and unfortunately they have a lot of money a lot of power to employ a man die as a vision for those countries so they're not giving really the people of. their own choice there they're trying to implement. the they have a lot of money. well why do you see a lot of money as a misfortune this is a photo and saudi arabia and its and other gulf countries and in fact taking

a lot of steps to help the arab world and the development of the investment and so on so i don't see i don't share your view without their say unfortunately so you see the saudi i so you don't seem to this idea as i was listening to the. the aid for the by saudi arabia to egypt he said the deposit but what about the how band aid offered by saudi arabia to syria and here i mean specifically financing all arms and you know training and or sending people to fight in syria do you do you feel good about as i don't have it at the moment but nope look if you want to talk about syria when we'll talk about the role of the united states about all over russia they are a bit on you under all and so on so i'm sort of if you want to open the file that's open it and talk about the old old those involved well that's added that's probably an idea for another program mr most unfortunately this is all we have time for i

finish a p.r. perspective and tell our viewers if you like the show please join us again same place same time here on worlds apart. there's a city when you're in the arctic you have the entire world at your feet. she looks like a fairly simple ship but really she's no simple little. and full of people have access to the nuclear icebreakers the real king here is the polar bear and i.

operation. root. there is obviously more for the latest because it's pink. women wanted to avoid rape they really needed to buy guns environ how to use them i'm. sure this is the one that i want to go with them once again it's the field strength for women definitely the target of the gun lobby and you don't kill them when the killing money but if somebody would you would piss with her. i'm noticing more and more if that's really scary marketing tactics which implies that women have some sort of moral obligation to tell guns to protect their family and young girls shoot out here too so we do have a pink or. more kids young kids choke on food than are killed by firearms if

being armed made us safer in america we should be the safest nation on earth were clearly not the safest. cholesterol preemies depression in. the country to work. and improve your life. are you see. form those threats of. branding. on our.

the latest headlines in the week's top stories here on artsy international and i saw key thrillers seals the show in song with arch rivals russia and taking on its states facing off in a close fall battle decided on penalties. carving up the world wide web german chancellor angela merkel proposed this creates an european network independence from the u.s. in a move aimed at resisting america's global surveillance. the russian pilot jailed in the u.s. says he's in the critical condition and may not live beyond the weekend while most of those pleas for medical intervention are ignored. also this week the second round of syrian peace talks has broken would be opposition pushing for regime change in the west.