clashes of caris peace and a full blown war three years on is the middle east closer to democracy than it was before the revelation of what they discovered and now i'm joined by the former secretary general of the arab league amr moussa mr melissa thank you very much for your time thank you now three years ago you sided with the attacker a square protesters calling for political changes in egypt comparing the whole of syria had backed down both for him jeff and for the region as a whole what has happened since do you now feel proud disappointed and maybe both well the. one you'll call it out of a spring i believe be it is a misnomer it is a movement for change it is a revolution against the old order so we have entered we in the arab world in the middle east. have entered already a new phase in the political life of this region but change is definitely

against dictatorship and in privet of democracy now the in egypt for example moving according to a roadmap with a constitution written and approved by the people by the majority of the people we are about to start another phase which is electing a new president and elected to parliament then. putting an end to the transitional period and go on and rebuilding the country so it needs time it's not a question of three years and you used the word legacy it is too early to talk about legacy it is a process on going process but in toto i believe that this is in paper of the future generations a revolution a. firm stand against dictatorship. it's interesting that you say that because your

sound was cautiously optimistic assessment seems to be very different from the one that is often expressed by pro-democracy activists in edge of people like for example ahmed mahara who like many prominent figures in that uprising now finds himself in jail and he just recently rode that quote everything collapsed and that january twenty fifth was exterminated that's what he wrote and he seems to be very passive mystic about the any prospect of positive democratic change coming to you egypt isn't it quite a dramatic reversal of fortunes that people like ask with my heart like other pro-democracy after activist and now in detention at the same time while the man against whom this uprising was directed hosni mubarak is out of jail and under house arrest i see that you are sitting to some names you must have

a. base of that name by better or lucian has no leader and many of the revolutionaries the young people the students there rest of the population is really. free and moving around and looking forward to a period of stability as for those detainees i believe like you that the b.p. should be accelerated in order to put an end to this phase however the government is now considering to. move quickly to either to present them to the courts or to free them so there is a process going on this point but i want you to bear in mind that there is a lot of violence against the society in universities and that's where this is and it troubled era and that is why the us. certain things certain exceptional

circumstances exceptional decisions. that are being taken you said previously bad this revolution. historic process needs time and obviously you are a very experienced diplomat you've seen a lot of things for all of your career and that may be one of the reasons why your exercise this very patient approach but i remember back in two thousand and eleven when i was talking to people in egypt later on in libya they had a very different time frame in mind it seemed that people back down seemed to believe that if only mark or gadhafi had resigned life would have changed almost instantaneously and obviously that didn't happen whatever economic or social indicator we take life has gotten much more difficult for one day or a ordinary egyptians for ordinary libyans so do you think that was from the very beginning a case off and realistically high expectations or simply some of the arab societies

not being ready or not being capable to seize that historic opportunity well that's a long question but they're the gist of it is that. can we move forward yes indeed we are going to move forward but yet i can't say that the revolutions have achieved their goals in changing the dynamic situation to the better or the stability introducing stability but as you see we have started the first point the first thing to do to stop the lies days any situation is to adopt a constitution and this constitution is a better good one i hope that you have read it so we are moving towards a stubby lies in this situation old that for us to be able to tackle the economic problems of the social problems those those are only three is and this is egypt of thousands of years so we're not we cannot get. second set all right what happened

in the last one thousand days of course a lot of negative things have happened and a change in the system of change and better jeem that a president that has not succeeded that his authority and with the people has been eroding by the day because of that in the fish and two way that the government of former president morsi. has done and we are now trying to introduce good management and deal with the outcome be negative outcome of that last. last year now mr morsi you just mentioned saying i am voting on this new constitution which is indeed very beautiful it written many experts believe that you mentioned also your efforts to bring law and order to egypt but unfortunately the realities of what is happening in your country are not so all bright not just for racial people still being killed in violent clashes in egypt and not only in egypt they're

also being killed in libya they're also being killed in syria in much greater numbers of course what i would like to ask is why do you think the arab societies were so ready to resort to violence and to why do they still rely on violence to settle that political scores yeah that this is a major mistake they are committing it is not a question of. opposition had it been just opposition that was to peacefully didn't use their most rape and make them sit on it would have been a good performance and even more effective opposition but using violence makes it necessary under government under the state to protect the interests of people of students driving it trying to study of people trying to go from one place to another this is a negative attitude of the muslim brotherhood and their supporters the. do

introduce violence. creates breeds violence so this violence is again is democracy is against ability is against basically it's of the people let me remind you very in all humbleness that it wasn't the muslim brotherhood that initially resorted to violence i mean that was a charge against the former president hosni mubarak and some of the military authorities that he relied on back in two thousand and eleven that was one of the main reasons why he stepped down the using violence against the protesters so you cannot only point the finger at the muslim brotherhood it seems that violence in and of itself has become a default option for many political forces within the egyptian society to rely on and how if it's indeed has become such in a trench pattern of using violence how can you how can you really move forward beyond. another long question and defense of one party it is in our interest

as egyptians to bring old together we are remote. preventing any group including the muslim brotherhood from getting under the aegis of the constitution the of course of those who perpetrate violence could be. from their rank and file of the muslim brotherhood or any other group but the violence is a crime against the society whoever is the perpetrator the government has to be firm against those perpetrators of violence but to see that no there is still of course the country is in a deep stress and in a state of revolution and a lot of confrontations we are in a transitional period i agree that a certain things that have to be done would have been done and have been done but

this is a situation in the country. a country and out of a state of evolution a country in a state of change a country in a state of transition so all of those things could happen mr morsi you just mentioned some of the challenges that face us right now tumbling economy. clashes violent clashes rising unemployment do you think that would you agree rather that all those three tumultuous years that made life for ordinary egyptians so difficult so challenging did those serious make them appreciate the stability of mubarak's era a bit more all perhaps because of all those challenges that egyptians have experienced and the past three years maybe they have now become more sympathetic everything a positive view on what the previous or former egyptian president tried to do in all his thirty years of being in power look at the so many things happened with the

past so many negatives and you can find also poll. so tips but now we are looking forward looking to the future when not getting back to what they got or iraq or whatever system or to dream of the twenty first century we are moving gold into that holds all of the game regionally nationally at least in that he and internationally and we don't have to this of closed out of the newspapers that are discussing issues like that but it is the the direction of the majority of the people that will get a new president will get a new government and will have to tackle the economic problems as soon as we can once the president is elected in the next. month or two months i believe things will start to settle and the movement will be very strict and how mr marson we have to take a short break now but when we come back and events in egypt inspired similar protests moments in libya and syria but each new uprising brought an average increasing

death toll was all that loss of life well that's coming up in a few moments on a while that part. of. a. very hard to take. that. with me here.

oh please please. please. please. please. please. her. face you need to review these economic ups and downs in the final months day belong to the new york sang i and the rest because i could still be taking will be everything we can all take place on. nato a deadly alliance without a clear mission decades after the end of the cold war this washington what alliance

continues to exist and expand in a big us adventure in afghanistan and behind regime change in libya nato now look somehow in some way to absorb ukraine which is made those gambit. plays. welcome back to worlds apart from riyadh discussing the legacy of the arab spring with the former secretary general of the arab lake mr melissa before returns ition

to other countries affected by the arab spring let me ask you a question about the role of the military authorities in egypt right now. clearly they have reasserted themselves as the protector of egypt once again and i would argue that something like this would have been pretty unimaginable back in two thousand and eleven because baghdad that uprising was at least partially directed against the military rule as well doesn't. that represent to some extent that the trail of the ideals of that revolution the fact that the military has once again came to define war of the egyptian politics no i started the doctrine of the constitution and the decision to organize the presidential elections within the timeframe stipulated by the constitution i believe that we will be we will be moving towards the normal kind of regime and

government and presidency so. you will certainly continue to perform its role as the as any other would do to protect the sovereignty of the country as for the next elections the stated we are. waiting for the decision of martial. sisi to leave the army to resign and to run for elections. as he is now is not going to run as commander in chief are you guys going to run as a former officer in the army and will you run in accordance with the preconditions of stipulated in because the gluten so we're not talking about the governing we are talking about democracy but while we're also talking about. the army intervening in the political affairs and let me ask you a hypothetical question what if the next elections bring to power you know some political force that they army doesn't like will they have to intervene again isn't

a question that is it will be controversial that is either to be clear you were elected mr x. or mr y. and the or it isn't it's have to be respected this is the more prosy and the people who would respect to be a result of democracy whoever is elected we will accept that is out of elections both elections will be organized within the framework often spirit of the city and the observers from abroad and from the population and from that egypt but will the winner of those elections allowed to serve full term of about the army delivering any of judgment on whether he or she has been efficient enough to serve the country which it is the case that you've been making against president morsi that has led to show wasn't efficient enough even though he was never allowed to fly to serve until the end of his term i'm sorry to tell you that you are assuming things. perhaps occulting certain sources. trying to confuse the situation dales of

presidential elections followed by parliamentary elections once the president is elected he is the president yes to the country according to the authorities stipulated for him as in the constitution but the parliament will follow will follow immediately it will have the legislative power so the army has nothing to do with either post neither president nor the parliament unless the opposite one officer or mode that have resigned in order to join the civilian life this is within no more than six months from last january with there would be a constitution a president a parliament and a government approved by there at the be. parliament not only appointed by the president but has to be approved by by the parliament this is a full democratic operation and that's what we are looking forward to and i want

you to know that and thank you for giving giving me the opportunity to explain that it is not a question about me as some with the newspapers continue to say. i want you to say election election election mr musser i would like to switch gears a little bit and to ask you not about your own country but rather about your neighbor libya reaches about to celebrate the third anniversary of its all revolution on february seventeenth and you seem to believe quite strongly that egypt is moving in the ride to a direction i wonder if you feel the same way about because three years down the line libya still lacks a democratically elected government it still lacks a constitution if still a place. called the shots also believe so so you believe that libya is moving towards democracy as well yes indeed they are moving this is as i told you this is a movement of change across the arab world and they this movement of change is not going to have a u. turn in order to get back to the era of gadhafi or others know all countries

including libya is moving towards the future. however setbacks they are there are some slow pace in the changes that are but it is the right to own that i tracked and in the right direction but you know that change could bear for better or for worse and i just wonder whether the change that we're seeing in libya or in syria indeed are indeed for better because just a couple of weeks ago five gyptian diplomats were abducted from the web in the egyptian embassy in tripoli in libya something like that could have never happened on the gadhafi regime so at least on some levels when it comes to a lawyer in order life under gadhafi was a far more predictable i wonder how can you talk about democracy when most political scores are being settled by militia who know. about ever we are talking

about constitution about promoting normal situation the era of gadhafi is finished now our friends and brothers in gibeah will have to rebuild their own life so how can they build their own life except in coordination with the rest of their neighbors and brotherly countries from to their east and their west both countries egypt and tunisia has worked according to him up they brought the constitution first the presidential elections second the parliamentary elections third so both countries are doing the right and left a moving event an action i believe that d.b.l. with the same growth perhaps a tougher. more problems but in the end i am sure that all of those countries that are today in distress when they get back to the normal route as egypt and tunisia ugly well you seem to be

a quite an optimist let me ask you something different in all these three countries that i mentioned so far. syria you often hear claims that people's revolutions were hijacked either by extremists or by the outsiders and i guess there is some validity to that claim because a lot of outside players remained involved in the affairs of the arab world russia the united states turkey saudi arabia you name it to what extent in your view does the success of the arab spring depend on the people in the region on the arabs and to what extent it still depends on the big power brokers who are trying to pursue that own agenda well this is that is all of the effects of the absence of egypt. egypt as the leader of the arab world had not been in the picture or in action for so many for though at least those three years plus as

as you say and you are right in saying so that the whole middle east is. subject to change and with the influence of foreign powers and i assure you that whatever the foreign powers decide. concerning the middle east will not be approved and will not be stabilized and will not stay unless the arab people accept and out of people approve and unless egypt is in and saying yes or saying no the influence of the outside powers is getting stronger now because of the absence of a major country like egypt but i assure you bay area will not be decided by iran or by turkey or by russia or by america in europe in the absence of the real power in this region which is the arab world we are the majority of the population and

egypt is the biggest one mr was a you just mentioned the absence of edge of the air on their political landscape i faced over the past three years a saw but there are at least two countries that whose presence in politics have has been increasing dramatically and i'm talking here about sag a saudi arabia and qatar both arab countries both have a very rigid and somewhat. backward looking political system and yet over the past three here is those countries have become much stronger much more assertive politically and i wonder since you have talked so much about a positive democratic change a change for the better what are the chances of genuine democratic change in the region where these two. decidedly undemocratic regimes command so much power so much money and so much authority and when they talk about change change is not one

system or one way the change in tunis and egypt has its own style change in yemen has another one in syria and libya unfortunately is taking a very negative way but it will improve anyway eventually it will improve in other arab countries the efforts to change it could be peaceful and they hope it will be peaceful so that this change what i'm saying is that change is a process that will take place across the board in the arab world and the middle east but change to the better looking to the future linking up with the twenty first century is a must there is no difference here between egypt or saudi arabia or qatar or emmett's or morrow courts are less and less of a i have only one minute left and let me clarify my question i wasn't asking you about the change with then saudi arabia or the change with them qatar i was asking

you about efforts that both saudi arabia and qatar have applied to change other countries to change syria you know better than i do that saudi arabia finances a lot of. insurgency let's call it that way insurgency activity is in serious i would call it terrorism saudi arabia also has interest in egypt saudi arabia also has an interest in libya and unfortunately they have a lot of money a lot of power to employ a man die as a vision for those countries so they are not giving really the people of. their own choice there they're trying to implement. leave they have a lot of money. why do you see a lot of money as a misfortune this is a photo and saudi arabia and emirates and other gulf countries in fact taking a lot of steps to help the arab world and the development of the investment and so

on so i don't see i don't share your view without their say unfortunately so you see the sort of the saudi i see to it all seems this idea as i was listening to the help of the aid for the by saudi arabia to egypt he said the deposit but what about the how band aid offered by saudi arabia to syria and here i mean specifically financing of arms and you know training and or sending people to fight in syria do you do you feel though that about as a lot of the land but ok look if you want to talk about syria when we're talking about the role of the united states about all over russia they are a bit i mean under all and so on so i'm sort of if you want to open the file let us open it and talk about their own so bold those involved well that's ahead that's probably an idea for another program mr most unfortunately this is all we have time for i finish if your prospective and tell our viewers if you like the show please join us again same place same time here on worlds apart.

birthday or. the location of the. river. to the dwellers of the royal high. ted said let's stop this storm my people.

there's a saying when you're in the arctic you have the entire fleet she looks like a fairly simple ship. full of people have access to the nuclear icebreakers the real king here is at the polar bear and ice breakers come second not a single complex expedition to the arctic can be conducted with the russian nuclear powered fleet of ice breakers under. operation. the northern sea route russia's take icebreaker.

the latest headlines and the week's top stories here on artsy international and i saw a piece spree in staunchly the home side stakes on slovakia just the day after a dramatic loss against arch rivals team usa. fracturing the world wide web german chancellor angela merkel proposes creates an a european internet network that would shield users they saw from america's global surveillance plus. the world. we. are to see goes behind rebel lines in lebanon on the word jihad this are ready to kill other muslims at home and across the border in syria.