to cross-talk developments in ukraine i'm joined by my guest marcus papadopoulos in london he's the editor of politics first magazine also in london we have robert oulds he used to director of the bruges group and in washington we crossed to ariel cohen he is a senior fellow in russian and eurasian studies and international energy security at the heritage foundation or a gentleman crosstalk rules in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it marcus if i go to you first in london i've been watching the pictures coming out of care for the last day and a half this looks like a armed insurrection this looks like an organized coup against the government in kiev and we have we have to point out here that the government in kiev mr unico which is reached out to the opposition numerous times over the last two weeks but still the violence continues and i want to make it very clear there is violence on both sides right now markets with what is your reaction. can i just say first of all peter that ordinary people in europe and indeed the rest of the world

absolutely disgusted by what they've seen on their television sets this week in ukraine and that discussed is all the more pronounced because the violence has been perpetrated by right wing extremists by neo nazi mobs that every intense all over for in the democratically elected government of ukraine and that it's an intolerable situation and we must move away from what we're hearing by western journalists and western politicians that these so-called protesters are protesters they're not protesters they're militants they're terrorists they became militants or terrorists that day they took up arms against the police force in kiev you cannot call people peaceful protesters when they take up guns when they take up molotov cocktails and they start not just injuring the police or this is actually going to police officers that wouldn't that would not that would not be accepted no that not what would well except it certainly wouldn't it certainly wasn't exactly

and it would have been deceptive to a lot of them except that in london it wasn't accepted in any kind of european capital but but ariel you know i mean you would write sectors for bold or do you like these kinds of people i mean they seem to represent this mob that you can see live pictures for a multiple sources i mean are these jeffersonian democrats now. well let's start with this the younger corporate government sent troops to kill people in november and beat students up so the ones who resorted to violence were not the right sector at all it was the younger coverture issue barrack area near invariably really answer when you answer my question i ask you a different question i like dealing with their you know i really with the right sector go ahead. peter peter i i am the first one to denounce the anti semites and the nazi sympathizers anywhere including in russia by the way but

the ones who resorted to violence the ones who pretended to reach out to the moderate opposition and then did not do what they promise they did not pass a legislation that they promised to pass about changing the constitution. to the mob of people be out in the street saying change the law why don't you have an election cycle that's what normal countries do. i want to change the government this government was elected president was elected the parliament was like that peter i don't care is it a question of no no i'm making sure our viewers understand reality because i agree with what marcus had to say there's a huge distortion here robert ok let's go to our third again go to our third gas and. go ahead robert give me your take on what's going on here because this is a very serious event playing out in the in camp right now. the situation is being

whipped up by the european union and the united states of america with the aim of destabilizing the ukraine and trying to play some zero sum game where they hope to eliminate russian influence within that country it is it is a political game that's being employed by western powers that are causing a great deal of havoc on the streets of ukraine and pushing the country towards a very very dangerous situation that will not end well there was serious meddling western meddling in that country and it must stop the european leaders the united states of america should respect the government of yannick over which there's an election next year if the people don't like him they can vote him out because the danger is that they probably won't talk to people and clearly don't like. being totally. mr obama has thirty percent or thirty three percent popular popularity the united states and no one's asking him to leave the markets let's go

back to you here i mean this is what it gets down to we know that victoria nuland has spent about five billion dollars on this investment here is she is this a good return. well the whole idea which has been spun at the moment by the west that what's happened in ukraine is a matter of freedom versus tyranny that's absolute nonsense and of course victoria nuland scum and sloss the week actually demonstrate that america and the european union are playing a game of chess and it says geostrategic game of chess their plane in ukraine and this is be going on since the since the nine hundred ninety s. they are true the west is trying to encircle russia on its western borders by bringing in states off the states into the e.u. and into nato let me just say this to anyone who argues that this is a matter of freedom first is tyranny in a tyranny people don't take to the streets let alone political police offices this wouldn't happen in saudi arabia which america is a staunch supporter of ok area would you like to reply to that go ahead for air

time. of course i was born in ukraine i've been to i'm jewish i despise the nazis and the neo nazis anywhere in europe and unfortunately the lots of them everywhere these days but the majority of people who demonstrate i'm not talking about the island fridge clearly there is ok clearly there is a violent fringe there but the majority of younger gradients including in the southeast on not ok you're interrupting me go ahead you're interrupting. peter pan or you can yell i said there patiently and listen ok so please the majority of people who are demonstrating against your new coverage by young educated western oriented people who want to live in a country that doesn't have as much corruption as you covered his regime bread and you know coverage totally lost support of the majority of the population ok what he

needed to do was to range political transition with the. opposition so that sometime late spring early summer they have an election including presidential election and they change the constitution. to a way that works i'm sorry everyone going what you're saying is ludicrous too because if he took trying to get a dresses to marcus now he's arranging all of this so he can be thrown out of power i don't get it ok he is elected he's going to stay i'm going to go to markets now equal time here this is what it's all about here is that the e.u. and the united states depending on which gambit you know they want to force their hand now it's a five billion dollar investment they've got to make their move now because there could be there will be an election if they could they keep their schedule and it might turn out the way they want because eastern ukraine more populous is not for this agenda of the e.u. that's why eunuch over it rejected the association agreement so this is the chess

game you're talking about you're running out of time go ahead. presently in the cove it took a decision last november to pursue closer economic relations with russia and he has every right to do that like in britain david cameron wants a reformed relationship with the european union he has a mandate from the british people and that should be accepted people in kiev have the right to protest against president yannick over its decision last year but he is the democratically elected president and let's not forget in two ten when he won that presidential election that was recognized by the you recognized by the u.s. they've been negotiating with him for the last four years but because he chose to pursue closer relations with russia over something he becomes a tyrant he becomes a family wicked piece of work we've seen this for the last twenty years we've seen a free single governments in the world which is an agenda strategic location and pursues an independent foreign policy we've seen that government demonized we saw

that with the serbs we saw that since we're seeing that in syria at the moment and now we see a match in ukraine it's an intolerable situation and it's a very dangerous situation robert how do you feel about me feel about turkey is it time for our gas in the program how do you robert how do you feel about the european union's approach towards ukraine because when it would it rejected this association agreement because it was a bad deal by the way would push it push the country even into a deeper recession that is now so that kind of our security wasn't welcomed and now the e.u. turns around and says you're a not legitimate figure to deal with but you know what they're in there in care of right now negotiating with mr unocal which why are they talking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time. well the european union has been bullying the ukraine they've been having quote a strict sions on ukrainian exports to the european union which is hurting their economy the e.u. has not been a friend to ukraine the association agreement if it were to be signed it would mean

the exporting of e.u. regulations to ukraine it would mean the closure of many businesses because it will mean higher regulation it will mean have to businesses have to me a use standards including environmental standards which are on particularly enforced in the ukraine at the moment it will mean job losses it was a very bad deal it's been estimated that exporting eve regulation so you're going here soon raw material standards are you see billion pounds a year twenty billion euros a year of other that's how much you would hurt the ukrainian economy it's not a good deal russia says it is a data loss or so at least i've been saying tragically alegria government of ukraine was a bad deal that's plain and simple for a gentleman we're going to go to a short break here set we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on events playing out in ukraine state party.

come. on show we go on tour and sometimes don when we meet some of his sons innovators in the nights. we find out how the big black queens for compazine crossed. the road in a modern day funky but still money state some smokes but the album said no day here on r.g.p. please go to the contrary. no cholesterol pianist depression. these efforts to work. to improve your life. are you see. form

those that's. close in your. hearts. as a fellow when i close my eyes i see people in mosques with. you know sometimes i think itself is a face covered by a mosque. with people in both sides of the barricades who didn't want. to be with us sometimes it feels as if all of ukraine is no most.

of the. pain. of the future harder. between two and three hundred million guns the united states so you can act like they're not here and keep kids away from them. the causes are you know i mean this teaches them a lot of for a responsibility i'm simply going to pay through the eyes of children if we can do it for our children for our future. posts right on. sir st louis and i think a trip. on a reporter's. instrument.

the. one of the new will come up in a lot of these new policies at the same time you know the. pleasure to have you with us here on our t.v. today i'm sure. why do you think that us is lacking respect towards your country as you say it only old self people oil this is the largest oil reserves in the world that is now in

the lead all the local oil basing now called what charges oil base and it's the largest oil reserves in the worlds so the us is agreed like a vampire. to get their hands on dad oil again because that. huge reserve sort of flies out of the largest world oil reserve. is in the interest of the united states to put a ten dollar. unit legally speaking. welcome back across the uk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to

remind you we're discussing recent developments in ukraine. ok and i'd like to ariel in washington how do you frank reflect upon that leaked tape with victoria nuland because it really you know you connect the dots right here she's made a huge investment for a regime change of one form or another or have a regime friendly to brussels and washington no matter how you want to look at it it's regime change here how do you look at that with that it's playing out on the streets right now i mean if this is what her investment was all about is a bring the city and i love here it's a beautiful beautiful city and you know what it looks it looks really awful right now and even dangerous i mean this is what american money is bringing bringing democracy to ukraine destroying its capital for us to all first of all victoria nuland did not make a five billion dollar investment in ukraine that's rubbish second of all let's talk about russia russia's investment russia cut gas prices to support the end of

coverage russia is buying ukrainian junk bonds of the ukrainian government with the normal very very dear girl bonds you're the model serial no you don't get your facts straight ok they're euro bonds russia wants are going to have sex trade very much. ok so i don't know i'm a bitch because you're one can't see in your head but in a diary peter is how you say here is the main gate or market for you right ukrainian goods sense an agreement with the european union is trying to put in your irish and if you're going to go to the union ok keep going arial keep going. so i'm saying is that russia is expanding billions and billions of dollars to bring your crane into the eurasian union if the majority of ukrainian people don't want to do that but this policy of russia pulling i haven't saw into the united states involvement. may bring to the breakup of ukraine that will bore us to russia

breaking you're going oh ok that's a new one here ok ok mark. let me go to marcus here because you know it's very interesting because our history get our history straight ok let me finish wasting when you made your point it's russia's fault markets that i go to london it's one of the obviously things it's russia so ukraine break down the euro when the ukrainian said no the elected legitimate government of ukraine said no to the association agreement what happened let's remind our viewers russia stepped in and said hey why don't we have a tri lateral discussion here where everyone can be a winner here let's give me i'll give you a good example canada is a nafta candidate has an association agreement with the european union why can't you can have work with the eurasian union and work with the european union but no i guess there's an exception here ukraine doesn't get that privilege marcus go ahead . well what are you with said just now that russia

could russia's actions could result in the breakup of ukraine is absolute utter nonsense victoria nuland comments demonstrate america's lip service to the concept of freedom and democracy and we've got other examples of that we saw late last year american politicians senator john mccain flying into ukraine an independent sovereign country and joining the protest movement meeting opposition leaders in calling for early elections in ukraine and calling for the over for of the ukrainian government which is democratically elected i'd like to see it and i realize that you're still going to lectures which is your blood sugar is a contributing writer and you cry out with a challenge oh no no no diarrheal no area we know you made your comments are you are you made your comment that russia is acting dangerously while i don't see russian politicians flying into cave and calling for the overthrow of

a democratically elected governments how would you how would you feel during the wall street protests if the if you creditors call sure we're great and started call and started calling for the overthrow of the american governments like like the american government you know you're just paying lip service to the concept of democracy russia has been abiding by international law in regard to ukraine it's not meddling but let me also state as well and it's important for you to realize this and people watching this program russia and ukraine have historically close relations russia is not an alien country in ukraine if it was an alien country why it's of over sixty percent of ukrainians belong to the moscow patriarchate or the ukrainian off the docks church that means most ukrainians their spiritual leader is in moscow if they hated the russians so much but they go to be following. that start so it's not some just a church of england at some point that did not prevent america to be independent. that it's a nice view that it's not as nice a strict as ukraine let's be serious let's face it. sara lamb let me go to robert

here what do you think the european union should be doing now because they're in moscow as we are in the in care as we're recording this program here should they back away or do you think they're going to continue to push here because i first of all don't understand why the european union is trying to negotiate this we've already seen what they want they want to give a raw deal to the ukrainians are going to force unocal which that we reconsider why does outside powers have to force a government to reconsider its own domestic policy. well many western countries have been interfering in ukraine for generations the whole history of the west is trying to take control of this area to try and limit russia to try and really strict ukrainian sovereignty ukrainian sovereignty should be respected by the european union the e.u. should back off it should not be trying to export its of a delay sions to ukraine which will damage their economy cost as much as twenty billion pounds a year it should be respecting self until you should know what you're getting

a belief about and i believe the euro so you can get your numbers straight million twenty billion you have there was about one hundred series of you don't have as many sources in the service train on that would be the cost of the e.u. regulations on the ukrainian economy it's already been because you're restricting the amount of oil that is there i don't just say no it's not right and you just made it up it is understood look at the massive unemployment market in the market that exists. in the economy you're talking over each other that no one here is what you're saying are. good guys just you know it is really going to tell you we are only going by the year where conditions are very own in iraq really make it more transparent leave ok now i may go to market to have gotten more serious because he's listening ok marcus what is this going here because i don't see i don't see any reason in the world why mr unocal what should blink he's democratically elected

but what is the european union going to say to these really savage people now in the my dawn and you don't you know you don't watch c.n.n. and b.b.c. you're not going to see sort of the recovered had their savage people absolutely salvage what they're slavish what they're doing to police officers and other people but the don't agree with them on the square where is it going marcus. well the once or should i'm going to mars here i think you could unfortunately actually i have you know i'm speaking now unfortunately ukraine is on the brink it could end up descending into a civil war the whole country could break up and i can't see how that's going to be averted it will only be averted if washington and brussels and brussels categorically condemns the terrible appalling violence that we're seeing perpetrated by neo nazi mobs on the streets of kiev and also in the west and when you're going to govern or ukraine but let's not forget let's not forget let's not forget those mobs in ukraine and they are stooges of the west and they are willing

stooges of the west if they won't get in supported politically and logistically by the united states and the european union they probably wouldn't be out on the streets in the first very steps of so that in order to is not supported by the service by your very very concerned about ukraine because the west will not stop supporting these these horrendous people in the streets that are killing that are killing police officers yet and also as we have. not gotten i don't know what you said most regional leaders a little smarter but they are very agile and although. we are not in the way our nation on crane aerial aerial and let's connect some dots here because when there was the munich security is this likely munich security conference recently ok when then you these opposition figures went and met with american officials ok and european officials they go back you can only repeat it now and then and then the tone of intolerance we have to remember you know call which said ok i'll bring you

into the government ok then just recently an amnesty ok what else do you want we want you overthrown i have to agree with you i would say i will say that five billion dollars and that's a real number here it's not just the number of where this money from the american taxpayers to overthrow this government but this being asked me you know i mean. you asked me how we can stop this nonsense right so i'll tell you we can stop but first of all let's not make things up the west will never support the neo nazis the west the united states did not give five billion i because we don't have five ability i wish it did it's in latvia and i wish we didn't have five billion to give to the great i don't condemn the s.l. ok rights for a year in the baltic states do they why doesn't american people who are talking about ukraine. that we see every given estonian libya well hang on hang on why don't they condemn that if they if they know nothing to the kettle of fish as always and so i should not try to reconstruct and so i think we should have. said

what i think we should have a round table i think we should have a rout a ceasefire but round table and elections and that's how we can see. who to be interviewed on table ariel you give me your round table go ahead with the round table will the round table will consist of the three opposition parties and i detest mr tapley bugs that the liberty party that because they have some nazi sympathizers in them i'm the first one to deny them but they're part of the mix right now clearly the right wing sector of the right sector should not be at the round table and this should be an accepted mediator because these people do not behave as adults to my great great regret russia and the united states probably should stay out in an acceptable figure from europe should media united states the

way it was unless it's now both parties accept there is a reasonable solution ok go ahead mark this is a reasonable so i'll turn it is a civil war marc if you don't and i don't and i just don't like the gentleman mark is jump in. i realize how can you say the united states government should stay out the united states government has been playing a role in ukraine from the very beginning and i don't mean to files on and for a teensy files and fourteen i take that back to the nineteen ninety's let's remember nine hundred ninety two the pentagon's defense and i got there let's talk about internationally but i'm sure we've been a team that a lot of the greatest threat far better let me know how long it takes no brainer shots are ok that's what so i hear let's go ahead i realize i told him the pentagon's defense planning guidance in ninety nine states stated that russia still poses the greatest threat to america's vets who don't sense in the border that the states that used to be in eastern europe and the former soviet union should people to be you and should bring your seems a native limit i'm going to soviet rules where you can discard you can discard

documents like i but that is the blueprint that is the blueprint to not let people to get to securely brzezinski will sign of the nine hundred ninety s. that you are right you're not there to gently and we're going to find an agent from i guess not and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching as you see you next time remember. these. this is the media lead us so we leave that maybe. by the same motions to the way your party years ago. which is that no one is asking with the guests that you

deserve answers from it's all on politics only on our t.v. . on the money with the business of russia is.

transit. your best way to the heart of moscow. explosions and street fights reported here with anti-government rajah shooting at police and blocking traffic the death toll from the recent violence reaches at least eighty with hundreds more injured. radicals who refused to leave the streets despite the deal signed between the president and the opposition on a number of concessions including early elections and a major overhaul of power rothesay the only accept his resignation. that's as western powers seem to be ignoring a vast arsenal now in the hands of the protesters and washington slapped a large part of the blame on the government.