hello and welcome to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle going to extremes all across europe right wing and to e.u. parties and groups are gaining strength and in some cases respectability what accounts for this hard economic times or the growing alienation and frustration with the euro project could it be said the new right is really the old right but wearing a nice suit. to cross talk the rise of the right i'm joined by my guest sony one dell in london he is a journalist and writer for the guardian and al-jazeera in berlin we have harold whelan bach he is a researcher and member of the european radicalization awareness network and in

harrisburg we cross to paul godfried he is an author and professor emeritus at elizabethtown college right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect and you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it sunny if i go to you first say i think my introduction should be a little familiar to you because i stole it ok from an article that you wrote recently and i want to quote one of the sentences i'm talking about the right wing right wing groups in parties in the west they put on smart suits stop using crude racist language and set out to gain respectability explain to our viewers what you mean. well i think that a lot of the parties across western europe especially in the u.k. in france in germany austria austria you know and specially in the netherlands what they're trying to do is realize that a lot of the language at the youth in the past which was sometimes very anti semitic you know very racist you know they realize that times of change and people have cheated views of those issues and so they can actually get respectability

using that language in using those those phrases so what they're trying to do is try to become a focus in arguments and make that much more about muslims have tried to make their arguments much more about just immigrants generally and played on existing worries that people have to use to gain more respectability and to get more political power across across western europe here will it continue what do you think about that because if you look at the national front let's say in france in the you don't hear any more homophobic remarks coming out they like the state of israel they've changed quite a bit and they've changed with the electorate but they still have very strong nationalist and some people say still ultra nationalist views so or are they a right wing in a nicer suit i mean the message sounds a lot more pleasant but at the core it's still the same. well yes indeed i think that was quite some professionalism with right wing groups and also their attempt

to clearly appeal to the general audience and and to populace in general which for us as practitioners of prevention programs and us policy makers means that we have to find new answers and responses to these. mainstreaming off extremist thought ok but here but here how do you do that if the message seems more attractive when it doesn't seem so violent and crude like it used to be we can think of the english defense league i mean when you watch them in crowds it was actually does it was it was vulgar and now they decided no way we're not going to do that anymore where you said social networks will we'll be on twitter and they their appeal is stronger but the message is very same it to the foreman and how do you deal with dealing with the new format that is more pleasant or has someone put it kinder and gentle or. absolutely peter you have to be much more smart and

systematic and let me point to what the european commission actually. has in argue about it in two thousand and eleven the radicalization awareness network that is a network close to the e.u. commission that is designed to actually find find the answers to these more intricate problems and if you look at what they do and i'm happy actually to work with them voluntarily. they differentiate the whole problem of extremism radicalization into different sections so there is a section dealing with media and internet is also a section dealing with with prisons and probation addressing practitioners that work there and whose job it is actually to help young people that are offended and racist and extremists to actually disengage there's another section that tries to

find intelligent answers for your school teacher well i mean ok then how do we deal if i go to harrisburg if i go to paul here i mean what is the appeal of the right in the right here is growing in your opinion which we've all agreed so far on this program that they're striving for respectability but why is there is the hard economic times of frustration with the european union or and i want to talk about a little bit later the frustration with the establishment go ahead paul. well i think the major problem here and i disagree profoundly with the other two speakers on this program the major problem it seems to me is that european and american politics have swung radically toward the left since the one nine hundred sixty. what has been described perhaps be ga fully but nonetheless accurately as a cultural marxist agenda gay rights multiculturalism feminism things that i as somebody to age of seventy two could not even of imagine around one nine hundred

sixty the people who are opposing this are not the old class club in france they are not supporters of the vishy government they're not german nazis god knows the people who oppose it are decent middle class christian people who are sick of being brainwashed by the left i've written numerous books which have been published by leading presses ok there's cross talk of sonny please jump in this is why we all have you on the program go ahead. yeah no i think this is absolute rubbish to be honest to be blunt for example in the u.k. the english defense the very pro gay rights they very much what program is rights over here this so so they claim to be and also they say that they are trying to protect britain from from the conservative forces of sharia law and from muslims who that is generally quite conservative culturally conservative you know so in the u.k. especially in france for example again marine le pen has been against immigrants

but actually been saying that you know she wants to protect gay rights in in in france and for example even in the netherlands. you know they had they've been very strong about how immigrants and muslims you know the far right has been didn't integrate with all the old life which is about taller. and and free speech and gay rights and women's rights and so this idea that these people have risen as a response to so-called cultural marxism is completely wrong is to completely misunderstand what's going on in europe and i think the problem is more the economic insecurity people across europe because of partly because of increased immigration globalization. as you said also actually there is some disenchantment with the political establishment and because of that and that's coming out in the

form of. support for smaller parties which are quite and can establish went quite a bit it's very interesting because we have all agreed on one thing here so far harold if i go back to you in berlin i mean is this just to get elected down this is kind of interesting because there are a lot of these right wing groups are changing their agenda and we've mentioned we've talked about immigration in the muslim issue and this is a electability is this is this the platform to get into power then reveal themselves. well let me comment on what has been said actually from the perspective of those who actually do work with the problem on the ground level and that means people like i mentioned already teachers social workers the vatican ization practitioners that actually have to deal on good with the hard end of the issue and if you ask them. this is what the ground at work and brussel actually does it goes out and talks a petition is assuming that they social practitioners the therapists that they know most about the issue and what to do what they come back to you and their

recommendation is the following we all must deep politicize the issue so for that reason to politicize the issue of violent extremism because it is about hatred against groups and it is about emotions and hatred against particular groups of people now if you listen to that you'd be surprised because you think that extremism is all about politics or religion well in fact if you are first line practitioner working with your fenders and and with all the context you realize it isn't it is about young mostly young very angry people that you need to talk to in a certain way to help them to get out of there so i would. be me you know but you know somewhat of a local you mentioned i didn't know that state or not but if i go to paul i mean paul i can i can see where you're coming from because it seems to me that the

political establishment in hollywood throw them in there they set the agenda of what society should be about ok and i think this is what disturbed a lot of people and going and i just want to broaden it out go ahead paul. ok there are several points i want to make in response to this first of all the angriest most hateful group that i have met are the re educators the people who cannot stand traditional society wish to impose multiculturalism on them and have exacerbated economic problems by bringing in groups of people who live off public welfare disproportionately points that have been made by zakat say in the. other books which examine very very closely the economic consequences of the kind of of third world immigration that is occurring another point is i readily concede that parties of the right are now appealing to gauge feminist and other groups whom

they would not have touched years ago the reason is obvious the political left electorate has moved decidedly to the left because of the educational establishment hollywood and the political class generally the result of this is that right wing parties have to appeal to people who one cultural issues are well to the left of where most people including communists used to stand and they are doing this in order to create some kind of electorate to avert a greater catastrophe which they think will come by having their country thoroughly submerged by third world immigration this is not because they are opportunistic it is because they see they have no other choice in the matter therefore they try to get all that say dutch speaking people including gays to support them against immigration gentlemen i'm going to jump. in here we're going to win short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the rise of the right state

with our team. wealthy british style. markets financed scandals find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to name two kinds of reports on our. winter is when the sahara comes to life. oasis palm trees are being harvested.

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corporations will profit by destroying what our founding fathers once told us i'm john mark and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem truck rational debate and real discussion critical issues facing us to find her ready to join the movement then walk or take. the lead. is a. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you we're discussing the rise of right wing movements.

ok gentlemen let's continue our spirited debate there sonny you were listening to what paul i did say before we went to the break you want to reply to him going ahead. yeah i mean i want to take issue with some of the points that paul made i mean for firstly for example a lot of i've spent some time hanging out with people from the english defense league and one of the things that always struck me was actually that how comfortable they were in criticizing not the left but actually but actually conservative muslims and so their point wasn't about immigration and actually what's interesting is that the english defense league don't take a strong position on immigration their issue and that's a b. and p. which is take an issue with immigration the english defense league issues always be . imposition of sharia law that's been their biggest problem or the so they claim anyway and actually the imposition of culturally conservative values as opposed to

you know trying to reach out to you know a conservative like paul seems to be implying a lot of the far right parties in in australia austria in the netherlands some in france as well as in the u.k. . and actually quite mixed in terms of racially two especially in france there's a lot of black people who support the national front in the u.k. this some black people have seen who support the national front but old saw they claim themselves that they're actually not racist at all they claim that they're they don't have a problem with black people coming even into the u.k. i mean what i'm trying to say is actually it's a very mixed picture in the way that appalled from hausberg is trying to you know generalize is that you're not really helpful and there's a broader point here actually which is that with less to do with a so-called third world immigration because a lot of the immigration into the u.k.

has been from eastern europe yeah it's not been from the so-called third world and actually is especially in the u.k. the big rise in immigration of the last five to ten years has been from. eastern europe and so they are more worried about not only you know these people are white mostly so you know this sort of the races troops that have been thrown at me. not only silly but also you know just wrong. the problem that they have is with immigration and the lack of their living standards falling and the fact that we're world is changing very fast they don't really know how to adjust to it and they feel angry about the way that britain is going those are very very complicated issues and it's silly to just bring him down to third world immigration ok although you know it's kind of broaden this out again i mean social injustice drives a lot of this as well and we can look from the financial crisis of two thousand and

eight two thousand and nine to the present you know i mean on both sides of the atlantic the bankers were taken care of the establishment was taken care of but a lot of people have fallen through the cracks and i think this is another thing that politicizes people in what direction or the other is another question here but it has politicized people because it's we west is becoming a society of haves and have nots and in a very extreme way they are old and burly and please go ahead. yes i would fully support you in that and i also support the sunny i think the church's position strikes me as somewhat ideologically and sort of off the off the realities it doesn't reflect anything that i can perceive in europe as being the case as being one of the resources of extremism whatever sort i think whenever ideology comes in we need we need a dose of research and publication and. brussels the foundation with its publication on and writing extremism in europe gives you reason and solutions and

pete i would support you to certainly the economic crisis is one factor on the other hand there's always been solid proportion of you know up to twenty percent within german population that would hold strongly anti-democratic fuz you know including and human rights and fundamental rights for you against the foreign as gays lesbians and all the typical target groups all on the one hand it is an economic crisis that has its effects on the other hand there's some social psychology that has always been there you know paul i you know again i'm an american is what i'm an american as well i mean and i have to say that on. a limited i do agree with you because there is this cultural hegemony right now and it's very very. it really crowds out a lot of discussions not that we should agree to racism or any kind of abuse to minorities but it seems that you know everything's been said and decided and you

have to believe a certain way and i feel that way that it's happened in the united states over the last few decades. you know let me let me raise two points first of all we are trapped in a vocabulary that is created by the cultural marxists left like extreme right wing there are no extreme left wing the left has been running the show in terms of molding culture education for decades and decades throughout the western world we have no left wing extremists people who disagree with us or against human rights we define what human rights mean. twenty five years ago in the united states people looked askance at gay anything many states criminalized homosexuality now we attack putin as being into human rights and democratic which he may in fact he may in fact be a thug i'm not even going to going because certainly is not the case on the cross he does not support gay rights well he's not against. a ride to the gun of the one of

the misted or if the media always is propagating right now you know i may have a lot of other don't i just don't like it that's not the case here you know sonny can you speak to that because i totally agree with you ok no problem sunny i mean you're going to go to sunday here you want to finish up go ahead i mean right. you know i what i what i what i wanted to say is that the left determines the vocabulary and what is the content of human rights and then in the case of putin they selectively target people who they don't like as right wing extremists or homophobes. what happens all the energy field is entirely with the left now the gentleman from the guardian i think made a valid point that the thing that right wing parties and i would not use rightly extreme parties but parties of the right what they object to will very often be a mixed bag and will depend upon the region in which you find them obviously in england there has been a larger number of eastern europeans than third world people who are coming in and

there is some grumbling about that in germany on the other hand most of the new immigration seems to be from africa the middle east and there's a longer eastern europe pain but i think that in all of these areas where you have the rise of what is called a new right there is dissatisfaction with with left wing hegemony my my friend in berlin does not seem to be aware of how widespread this agenda he is and having spent the last forty years and in an academic lunatic asylum i assure you that it is total in many many quarters of american life. i was in academia for a while i found it in a straight jacket as well at times so let me go ahead jump in in london. yeah i mean i think spending time in the lunatic asylums is kind of affected his you know thinking a little bit is that the point is that in the u.k. and actually across europe values have changed cultural values have changed more

broadly to become much more tolerant much more open much more liberal and space even in the united states so people do much work what white is going to do it's a good thing i mean just what is it is that related doesn't necessarily mean that this is that the left has sort of some done some sort of a takeover in fact on on economic terms right which is one out we've become a much more equal unequal society the bankers as you pointed out have become you know much more powerful they have managed to get away with you know holding onto power and respected and been bailed out despite the two thousand and eight crash even is a lot of people a little bit have fallen through the cracks so actually what's happened is that even while our societies have become much more open deborah tolerant and even more accepting of immigration in the u.k. there is far more acceptance of immigration that's ever been in that across europe too the problem is that people feel that the pace of change especially economic

change is affecting their livelihoods and that's a lot to do with the way our economic systems are and the way that the bankers of pretty much made sure that the society remains unequal you know and the financial elites have made sure that it carries on and so to try and blame cultural marxism is just it's so redundant it's so nine hundred sixty s. i can't even begin to you know start on it because the world has moved on basically the problems that we face now are much more to do with growing inequality in stabilisation people feeling that their livelihoods are not secure and as a result especially a lot of the youth in western europe are turning towards extreme groups because they feel like those don't. people articulating. it were found were apparently what a lot of time let me let me go to harold in berlin because i think sunny is really on the something here because you have an economy that is crueler and meaner than

ever before ever since the end of the second world war and then you have a cult and then you have a different cultural said i mean this is the disconnect here i think that a lot of people are feeling again it seems to me left to right traditional left to right in europe you know it's a plague on both their houses because they're the establishment if you just move a little bit to one hundred degree or the other but they still have power here and i think this is frustrating for a lot of people because a lot of people did fall through the cracks over the last decade. absolutely and as i did before i can support that i was just chuckling a little bit to myself when you're watching us three get it getting getting polarized certainly told me that we had probably not much of a solution to help in this because we we sort of radicalizes and we might we might find that and life something that i could certainly sort of drag on with the debate and you know not to ask where are the marxist left wing powers on europe i don't see that but i think i probably shouldn't engage in that and you very much actually

in the intro i should have said more clearly i am an academic yes but first of all i am a therapist and i'm a practitioner so let me if i'm me it's more interesting to actually do more research about and talk more about what we actually do as interesting as a question might be where it actually comes from the problem with extremism right from extremism so what to practice in this it teaches social workers actually do media work a still what kind of journalism do we need what kind of debates do we need so that we can actually well the point i mean we've run out of time and we did have a debate on this program many thanks to my guest in london berlin and in harrisburg and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are can see you next time and remember the last time. you really believe the only thing we want. is a. silence

on the. rights. of the young girls. ok i'm all for the future hunter. between two and three hundred million guns united states so you can act like they're not here and keep kids away from them. the causes. you know teaches them a lot of both ability and simply through the eyes of children if we can do it for our children our future.

please speak your language. programs in documentaries in arabic in school here. reporting from the world talks about seventy odd p. interviews intriguing stories are you. been trying. to find out more visit. i don't see how european countries who are member of the european union can solve

the problem without leaving the european union so it's all the countries like great britain or france you name friends especially with increasing poverty in my opinion they have a difficult they have a difficult time to solve these problems but i think at least they should rearrange the principle rules all free movement of persons and improve the system. well if you're coming along the hall of fame it's a. pleasure to have you with.

a better suite goodbye games are officially over capped by a spectacular and thrilling ceremony and going down in history for its remarkable performances as well as someone usual backers and highlights. ukraine's opposition rushes through a new law taking power on the former ruling party and the communists and its fears of a surge and nationalist groups. called a confessional flag may be in for some major changes. so many things would have to be changed we asked some brits how they feel about the redrawing the wall of their country.