to cross-talk the rise of the right i'm joined by my guest so anyone dull in london he is a journalist and writer for the guardian and al-jazeera in berlin we have harold whelan back he is a researcher and member of the european radicalization awareness network and in harrisburg we crossed to paul godfried he is an author and professor emeritus at elizabethtown college right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect and you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it sunny if i go to you first say i think my introduction should be a little familiar to you because i stole it ok from an article that you wrote recently and i want to quote one of the sentences talking about the right wing right wing groups and parties in the west they put on smart suits stop using crude racist language and set out to gain respectability explain to our viewers what you mean. well i think that the lot of the parties across western europe especially in the u.k. in france in germany austria austria you know and specially in the netherlands what

they've tried to do is realize that a lot of the language at the unit in the past which was sometimes very anti sematic you know very racist you know they realize that times of change and people have cheated views of those issues and so they can actually get respectability using that language in using those those phrases so what they're trying to do is try to become focus their arguments and make that much more about muslims have to make their arguments much more about just immigrants generally and played on existing worries that people have to use to gain more respectability and to get more political power across across western europe here all the kink in it what do you think about that because if you look at the national front let's say in france you don't hear any more homophobic remarks coming out that they like the state of israel they've changed quite a bit they've changed with the electorate but they still have very strong nationalists and some people say still ultra nationalist views so or are they

a right wing in a nicer suit i mean the message sounds a lot more pleasant but at the core it's still the same. well yes indeed i think that was quite some professionalism with right wing groups and also their attempt to clearly appeal to the general audience and and to populace in general which for us as practitioners of prevention programs and us policy makers means that we have to find new answers and responses to these to this mainstreaming of extremist thought ok but here but here how do you do that if the message seems more attractive when it doesn't seem so violent and crude like it used to be we can think of the english defense league i mean when you watch them in crowds it was actually does it was it was vulgar and now they decided no way we're not going to do that anymore where you said social networks will we'll be on twitter and they their appeal is stronger but the message it is very same at the forum and how do

you deal with dealing with the new format that is more pleasant or has someone put it kinder and gentle or. absolutely peter you have to be much more smart and systematic and let me point to what the european commission actually. has in argue about it in two thousand and eleven the radicalization awareness network that is a network close to the e.u. commission that is designed to actually find find the answers to these more intricate problems and if you look at what they do and i'm happy actually to work with them voluntarily. they differentiate the whole problem of extremism or radicalization into different sections so there is a section dealing with media and internet sources section dealing with with prisons

and probation addressing practitioners that work there and whose job it is actually to help young people that are offended and racist and extremists to actually disengage there's another section that tries to find intelligent answers for your school teacher well i mean ok but how do we deal if i could go to harrisburg if i go to paul here i mean what is the appeal of the right in the right here is growing in your opinion when we've all agreed so far on this program that they're striving for respectability but why is there if the hard economic times of frustration with the european union or and i want to talk about a little bit later the frustration with the establishment go ahead paul. well i think the major problem here and i disagree profoundly with the other two speakers on this program the major problem it seems to me is that european and american politics have swung radically toward the left since the one nine hundred sixty. what has been described perhaps be ga fully but nonetheless accurately as

a cultural marxist agenda gay rights multiculturalism feminism things that i as somebody to age of seventy two could not even imagine around one nine hundred sixty the people who are opposing this are not the old class in france they're not supporters of the vishy government they're not german nazis god knows the people who oppose it are decent middle class christian people who are sick of being brainwashed by the left i've written numerous books which have been published by leading presses ok all right go ahead there's cross talk to sunny please jump in this is why we all have you on the program go ahead. yeah no i think this is absolute rubbish to be honest to be blunt for example in the u.k. the english defense the very pro gay rights they're very much what program is rights over here this so so they claim to be and also they say that they are trying

to protect britain from from the conservative forces of sharia law and for muslims who that is generally quite conservative culturally conservative you know so in the u.k. especially in france for example again marine le pen has been against immigrants but actually been saying that you know she wants to protect gay rights in in in france and for example even in the netherlands. you know they had they've been very strong about how immigrants and muslims you know the far right has been that they don't integrate with all wheel of life which is about taller. and and free speech and gay rights and women's rights and so on until this idea that these people have risen as a response to so-called cultural marxism is completely wrong it's to completely misunderstand what's going on in europe and i think the problem is more the

economic insecurity people across europe because of partly because of increased immigration globalization. as you said also actually there is some disenchantment with the political establishment and because of that and that's coming out in the form of. support for smaller parties which are quite frankly star bush went quite a bit it's very interesting because we have all agreed on one thing here so far harold if i go back to you in berlin i mean is this just to get elected down this is kind of interesting because there are a lot of these right wing groups are changing their agenda and we've we've mentioned we've talked about immigration in the muslim issue and this is a electability is this is this the platform to get into power then to reveal themselves. well let me comment on what has been said actually from the perspective of those who actually do work with the problem on the ground level and that means people like i mentioned already teachers social workers steve article ization practitioners that actually have to deal on good with the hard end of the issue if

you ask them. this is what the ground that we can actually does that goes out and talks a petition is assuming that they social practitioners are therapists that they know most about the issue and what to do what they come back to you and their recommendation is the following we all must deep politicize the issue so for that reason the politicize the issue of violent extremism because it is about hatred against groups and it is about emotions and hatred against particular groups of people now if you listen to that you'd be surprised because you think that extremism is all about politics or religion well in fact if you are first line practitioner working with your fenders and and with all the context you realise it isn't it is about young mostly young very angry people that you need to talk

to in a certain way to help them to get out of there so i would. continue no but you know somewhat of a local you mentioned i didn't know that straight or not but if i go to paul i mean paul i can i can see where you're coming from because it seems to me that the political establishment in hollywood throw them in there they set the agenda of what society should be about ok and i think this is what disturbed a lot of people and going and i just want to broaden it out go ahead paul. ok there are several points i want to make in response to this first of all the angriest most hateful group that i've met are the re educators the people who cannot stand traditional society wish to impose multiculturalism on them and to exacerbate an economic problems by bringing in groups of people who live off public welfare disproportionately points that have been made by in the. other books which examine very very closely the economic consequences of the kind

of of third world immigration that is occurring another point is i readily concede that parties of the right are now appealing to gauge feminist and other groups whom they would not have touched years ago the reason is obvious the political electorate has moved decidedly to the left because of the educational establishment hollywood and the political class generally the result of this is that right wing parties have to appeal to people who one cultural issues are well to the left of where most people including communists used to stand and they are doing this in order to create some kind of electorate to avert a greater catastrophe which they think will come by having their country totally submerged by third world immigration this is not because they are opportunistic it is because they see they have no other choice in the matter therefore they try to

get all that say dutch speaking people including gays to support them against immigration. when short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the rise of the right state with our team.

transit route to vnukovo report you all best way to the heart of moscow. told him a language of all but i will only react to situations i have read to me points to him like the pollution from a no i will leave them to state clearly to comment on your latter point i come on to say it's six am a car is on a dock you know. over a hill no more weasel words. when you have a direct question be prepared for a change when you find you should be ready for a battle freedom of speech and little down the freedoms of caution.

winter is when the sahara comes to life. always is palm trees are being harvested. people are waiting for the biggest event of the yeah. the desert festival. this is true it is really out that is. leading camel races have spent the last year preparing for the grueling marathon. the day before the race there's a heavy sandstone overcoming the power of nature is a never ending challenge. so a desert went to the nazi. it was a. very hard take a. lot to get along here as a flat out lie that we never had sex with that make hair let's. call it.

the first step. let's see if.

welcome back to cross talk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you were discussing the rise of right wing movements. ok gentlemen let's continue our spirited debate there sonny you were listening to what paul i just before we went to the break you want to reply to him go right ahead. yeah i mean i want to take issue with some of the points that paul made i mean for firstly for example a lot of i've spent some time hanging out with people from the english defense league and one of the things that always struck me was actually that how comfortable they were in criticizing not the left but actually but actually conservative muslims and so their point wasn't about immigration and actually what's interesting is that the english defense league don't take a strong position on immigration their issue and that's a b. and p. which is taken issue with immigration the english defense league issues always be.

imposition of sharia law that's been their biggest problem or the or the so they claim anyway and actually the imposition of culturally conservative values as opposed to you know trying to reach out to you know a conservative like paul seems to be implying a lot of the far right parties in in australia austria in the netherlands some in france as well as in the u.k. . and actually quite mixed in terms of racially two especially in france there's a lot of black people who support the national front in the u.k. this some black people have seen who support the national front but old saw they claim themselves that they're actually not racist at all they claim that they're they don't have a problem with black people coming even into the u.k. i mean what i'm trying to say is actually it's a very mixed picture in the way that appalled from hausberg is trying to you know

generalize is that you're not really helpful and there's a broader point here actually which is that with less to do with a so-called third world immigration because a lot of the immigration into the u.k. has been from eastern europe yeah it's not been from the so-called third world and actually is especially in the u.k. the big rise in immigration of the last five to ten years has been from. eastern europe and so they are more worried about not only you know these people are white mostly so you know this sort of the races troops that have been thrown at me. not only silly but also you know just wrong. the problem that they have is with immigration and the lack of their living standards falling and the fact that we're world is changing very fast they don't really know how to adjust to it and they feel angry about the way that britain is going those are very very complicated issues and it's silly to just bring him down to third world immigration

ok although you know it's kind of broadness out again i mean social injustice drives a lot of this as well and we can look from the financial crisis of two thousand and eight two thousand and nine to the present you know i mean on both sides of the atlantic the bankers were taken care of the establishment was taken care of but a lot of people have fallen through the cracks and i think this is another thing that politicizes people in what direction or the other is another question here but it has politicized people because it's we west is becoming a society of haves and have nots and in a very extreme way they are old and burly and please go ahead. yes i would fully support you in that and i also support sonny i think the church's position strikes me as somewhat ideologically and sort of off the off the realities it doesn't reflect anything that i can perceive in europe as being the case as being one of the resources of extremism whatever sort i think whenever ideology comes and we

need we need a dose of research and publication and. brussels then to finish it but foundation with its publication on writing extremism in europe gives you reason and solutions and pete i would support you to certainly the economic crisis is one factor on the other hand there's always been solid proportion of you know up to twenty percent within german population that would hold strongly anti-democratic fuz you know including and human rights and fundamental rights for you against the old foreign gays lesbians and all the typical talk of groups all on the one hand it is an economic crisis that has its effects on the other hand some social psychology that has always been there you know again i'm an american is what i'm an american as well and you know and and i have to say that on. a limited i do agree with you because there is this cultural hegemony right now and it's very very. it

really crowds out a lot of discussions not that we should agree to racism or any kind of abuse to minorities but it seems that you know everything's been said and decided and you have to believe a certain way and i feel that way that anything has happened in the united states over the last few decades. you know let me let me raise two points first of all we are trapped in a vocabulary that is created by the cultural marxists left like extreme right wing there are no extreme left wing the left has been running the show in terms of molding culture education for decades and decades throughout the western world we have no left wing extremists people who disagree with us are against human rights we define what human rights mean. twenty five years ago in the united states people looked askance at gay anything many states criminalize homosexuality now we attack putin as being into human rights and democratic which he may in fact he may in fact

be a thug i'm not even going going to certainly is not the case on the cross he does not support gay rights well he's not against. a ride to get out of the one of the misted or if the media always is propagating right now you know i may have a lot of other don't i just don't like you know it's that's not the case here you know sunny can you speak to that because i totally agree with you really no problem sunny i mean going to go to center here you want to finish up go ahead i mean right . you know i what i what i what i wanted to say is that the left determines the vocabulary and what is the content of human rights and then in the case of putin they selectively target people whom they don't like as right wing extremists are homophobes. what happens all the energy field is entirely with the left now the gentleman from the guardian i think made a valid point that the thing that right wing parties and i would not use rightly

extreme parties but parties of the right what they object to will very often be a mixed bag and will depend upon the region in which you find them obviously in england there has been a larger number of eastern europeans than third world people who are coming in and there is some grumbling about that in germany on the other hand most of the new immigration seems to be from africa the middle east and there's a longer eastern europe pain but i think that in all of these areas where you have the rise of what is called a new right there is dissatisfaction with with left wing hegemony my my friend in berlin does not seem to be aware of how widespread this agenda he is and having spent the last forty years and in an academic lunatic asylum i assure you that it is total in many many quarters of american life. i was in academia for a while i found it in a stranger not going to so many go ahead jump in london. yeah i mean i think

spending time in that lunatic asylums is kind of affected his you know thinking a little bit is that the point is that in the u.k. and actually across europe values have changed cultural values have changed more broadly to become much more tolerant much more open much more liberal and space even in the united states so people do much work why do they are going to it's a good thing i mean just what is it is that related doesn't necessarily mean that this is that the left has sort of some done some sort of a takeover in fact on on economic terms right which is one out we've become a much more equal unequal society the bankers as you pointed out have become you know much more powerful they've managed to get away with you know holding on to power and respect and been bailed out despite the two thousand and eight crash even as a lot of people a little bit have fallen through the cracks so actually what's happened is that even while our societies have become much more open deborah tolerant and even more

accepting of immigration in the u.k. there is far more acceptance of immigration that's ever been in that across europe to the problem is that people feel that the pace of change especially economic change is affecting their livelihoods and that's a lot to do with the way our economic systems are and the way that the bankers of pretty much made sure that the society remains unequal you know and the financial elites have made sure that it carries on and so to try and blame cultural marxism is just it's so redundant it's old one nine hundred sixty s. i can't even begin to you know start on it because the world has moved on basically the problems that we face now are much more to do with growing inequality in stabilisation people feeling that their livelihoods are not secure and as a result especially a lot of the youth in western europe are turning towards extreme groups because they feel like those don't. people articulating. it were more family or family when

i got a time let me let me go to harold in berlin because i think sonny is really on the something here because you have an economy that is crueler and meaner than ever before ever since the end of the second world war and then you have a cold and then you have a different cultural said i mean this is the disconnect here i think that a lot of people are feeling again it seems to me left to right traditional left to right in europe you know it's a plague on both their houses because they're the establishment if you just move a little bit to one hundred degree or the other but they still have power here and i think this is frustrating for a lot of people because a lot of people did fall through the cracks over the last decade. absolutely and as i did before i can support that i was just chuckling a little bit to myself when you watching us really get it getting getting polarized certainly told me that we had probably not much of a solution to help in this because we were sort of radicalizes and you know we might we might find that and lie something i could certainly sort of drag on with

the debate and you know not to ask where are the marxist left wing powers on europe i don't see that but i think that we shouldn't engage in that and you feel it i very much actually in the intro i should have said more clearly i am an academic yes but first of all i am a therapist and i'm a practitioner so i me if i'm me it's more interesting to actually do more research about and talk more about what we actually do as interesting as question might be you where it actually comes from the problem with extremism right from the stream is and so what to practice in this teaches social workers actually do media work a still what kind of journalism do we need what kind of debates do we need so that we can actually put i mean we've run out of time and we have a debate on this program many thanks to my guest in london berlin and in harrisburg and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are see you next time and remember the last time.

you really believe the season. is over. i marinate join me on boom bust into impartial and financial reporting commentary interview and much much. only on the bus and on.

salary it's all. equal rights. to the. pain of the young girls cam all for the future harder. between two and three hundred million guns united states so you can act like they're not here and keep kids away from them. the causes that is a large you know i mean this teaches them a lot of for a responsibility and simply come to pay through the eyes of children if we can't do it for our children for our future. is a hundred fold. i

don't see how european countries who are member of the european union can solve the problem without leaving the european union so it's all fields that countries like great britain or france you named friends especially with increasing poverty in my opinion they have a difficult they have a difficult time to solve these problems but i think i'd least they should rearrange the principle rules all free movement of persons and improve the system.

johnny there sheds a tear a farewell at the curtain as the curtain falls on such a twenty fourteen winter games that will go down in history for its remarkable and record breaking performance of. ukraine's interim president kickstarter campaign for the top job while the hunt is underway for the country's ousted leader and members of his former ruling party. brock obama's attempts to tame the n.s.a. have apparently failed as reports claim the agency snooped on hundreds of german officials after the president forbid them from spine on the country's chancellor. and with scotland in a panic referendum looming britain faces.