a nice suit. to cross-talk the rise of the right i'm joined by my guest sony one dell in london he is a journalist and writer for the guardian and al-jazeera in berlin we have harold whelan back he is a researcher and member of the european radicalization awareness network and in harrisburg we crossed to paul godfrey he is an author and professor emeritus at elizabethtown college right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it sunny if i go to you first day i think my introduction should be a little familiar to you because i stole it ok from an article that you wrote recently and i want to quote one of the sentences talking about the right wing right wing groups and parties in the west they put on smart suits stop using crude racist language and set out to gain respectability explain to our viewers what you mean. well i think that the lot of the parties across

western europe especially in the u.k. in france in germany austria austria you know and specially in the netherlands what they're trying to do is realize that a lot of the language that they used in the past which would sometimes very anti semitic you know very racist they realize that times of change and people have cheated views of those issues and so they can actually get respectability using that language in using those phrases so what they're trying to do is try to become focused in arguments and make that much more about muslims have tried to make their arguments much more about just immigrants generally and played on existing worries that people have to use to gain more respectability and to get more political power across across western europe here will it continue what do you think about that because if you look at the national front let's say in france you don't hear any more homophobic remarks coming out they like the state of israel they've changed

quite a bit of change with the electorate but they still have very strong nationalists and some people say still ultra nationalist views so or are they a right wing in a nicer suit i mean the message sounds a lot more pleasant but at the core it's still the same. well yes indeed i think that was quite some professionalism with right wing groups and also their attempt to clearly appeal to the general audience and and to populace in general which for us as practitioners of prevention programs and us policy makers means that we have to find new answers and responses to these to this mainstreaming off extremist thought ok but here but here how do you do that if the message seems more attractive when it doesn't seem so violent and crude like it used to be we can think of the english defense league i mean when you watch them in crowds it was actually does it was it was vulgar and now they decided no way we're not going to

do that anymore where you said social networks will we'll be on twitter and they their appeal is stronger but the message it is very same at the forum and how do you deal with dealing with the new format that is more pleasant or has someone put it kinder and gentle or. absolutely peter you have to be much more smart and systematic and let me point to what the european commission actually. has in argue about it in two thousand and eleven the vatican is ation awareness network that is a network close to the e.u. commission that is designed to actually find find the answers to these more intricate problems and if you look at what they do and i'm happy actually to work with them voluntarily. they differentiate the whole problem of extremism or radicalization into different sections so there is

a section dealing with media and internet sources section dealing with with prisons and probation addressing practitioners that work there and whose job it is actually to help young people that are offended and racist and extremists to actually disengage there's another section that tries to find intelligent answers for your school teacher well i mean ok but how do we deal if i could go to harrisburg if i go to paul here i mean what is the appeal of the right in the right here is growing in your opinion when we've all agreed so far on this program that they're striving for respectability but why is there if the hard economic times of frustration with the european union or and i want to talk about a little bit later the frustration with the establishment go ahead paul. well i think the major problem here and i disagree profoundly with the other two speakers on this program the major problem it seems to me is that european and american

politics have swung radically toward the left since the one nine hundred sixty. what has been described perhaps be ga fully but nonetheless accurately as a cultural marxist agenda gay rights multiculturalism feminism things that i as somebody to age of seventy two could not even imagine around one nine hundred sixty the people who are opposing this are not the old class in france they're not supporters of the vishy government they're not german nazis god knows the people who oppose it are decent middle class christian people who are sick of being brainwashed by the left i've written numerous books which have been published by leading presses ok there's cross talk to sunny please jump in this is why we all have you on the program go ahead yeah no i think this is absolute rubbish to be honest to be blunt for example in the u.k.

the english defense the very pro gay rights they're very much what program is rights over here this so so they claim to be and also they say that they are trying to protect britain from from the conservative forces of sharia law and from muslims who that is generally quite conservative culturally conservative you know so in the u.k. especially in france for example again marine le pen has been against immigrants but actually been saying that you know she wants to protect gay rights in in in france and for example even in the netherlands. you know they had they've been very strong about how immigrants and muslims you know the far right has been that they don't integrate with all wheel of life which is about taller. and and free speech and gay rights and women's rights and so this idea that these people have risen as a response to so-called cultural marxism is completely wrong it's to completely

misunderstand what's going on in europe and i think the problem is more the economic insecurity people across europe because of partly because of increased immigration globalization. as you said also actually there is some disenchantment with the political establishment and because of that and that's coming out in the form of. support for smaller parties which are quiet and peaceful bush went quite a bit it's very interesting because we have all agreed on one thing here so far harold if i go back to you in berlin i mean is this just to get elected down this is kind of interesting because there are a lot of these right wing groups are changing their agenda and we've we've mentioned we've talked about immigration in the muslim issue and this is the electability is this is this the platform to get into power then to reveal themselves. well let me comment on what has been said actually from the perspective of those who actually do work with the problem on the ground level and that means

people like i mentioned already teachers social workers the vatican ization practitioners that actually have to deal with the hard end of the issue and if you ask them. this is what the ground that we can trust election he does it goes out and talks a petition is assuming that they social practitioners therapist that they know most about the issue and what to do what they come back to you and their recommendation is the following we all must deep politicize the issue so for that reason to politicize the issue of violent extremism because it is about hatred against groups and it is about emotions and hatred against particular groups of people now if you listen to that you'd be surprised because you think that extremism is all about politics or religion well in fact if you are first line practitioner working with your fenders and and with all the context you realize it

isn't it is about young mostly young very angry people that you need to talk to in a certain way to help them to get out of there so i would question in academia no but you know somewhat of a local you mentioned i didn't know the answer to it or not but if i go to paul i mean paul i can i can see where you're coming from because it seems to me that the political establishment in hollywood throw them in there they set the agenda of what society should be about ok and i think this is which disturbed a lot of people and going and i just want to broaden it out go ahead paul. ok there are several points i want to make in response to this first of all the angriest most hateful group that i have met are the re educators the people who cannot stand traditional society wish to impose multiculturalism on them and have exacerbated economic problems by bringing in groups of people who live off public welfare disproportionately points that have been made by in the.

other books which examine very very closely the economic consequences of the kind of of third world immigration that is occurring another point is i readily concede that parties of the right are now appealing to gauge feminist and other groups whom they would not have touched years ago the reason is obvious the political electorate has moved decidedly to the left because of the educational establishment hollywood and the political class generally the result of this is that right wing parties have to appeal to people who when cultural issues are well to the left of where most people including communists used to stand and they are doing this in order to create some kind of electorate to avert a greater catastrophe which they think will come by having their country totally submerged by third world immigration this is not because they are opportunistic it

is because they see they have no other choice in the matter therefore they try to get all that say dutch speaking people including gays to support them against immigration i'm going to jump in here. short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the rise of the right state with our team. what if your whole life and the polish face i think i feel.

a pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm sure. i don't see how european countries who are member of the european union can solve the problem without leaving the european union so it's all b.s. that countries like great britain or france you named francis specially with increasing poverty in my opinion they have a difficult they have a difficult time to solve these problems but i think at least they should rearrange the principle rules all free movement of persons and improve the system.

we speak your language i mean some of the will or not at the. school music programs and documentaries in spanish what matters to you breaking news a little tentative angles kidney's stories. are you here. to try to alter the spanish find out more visit i to al a dud. welcome

back to cross talk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle to mind you were discussing the rise of right wing movements. ok gentlemen let's continue our spirited debate there sonny you were listening to what paul i just before we went to the break you want to reply to him go right ahead. yeah i mean i want to take issue with some of the points that paul made i mean for firstly for example a lot of i've spent some time hanging out with people from the english defense league and one of the things that always struck me was actually that how comfortable they were in criticizing not the left but actually but actually conservative muslims and so their point wasn't about immigration and actually what's interesting is that the english defense league don't take

a strong position on immigration their issue and that's a b. and p. which is taken issue with immigration the english defense league issues always be. imposition of sharia law that's been their biggest problem or that of the so they claim anyway and actually the imposition of culturally conservative values as opposed to you know trying to reach out to you know a conservative like paul seems to be implying a lot of the far right parties in in australia austria in then the netherlands some in france as well as in the u.k. . actually quite mixed in terms of racially two especially in france there's a lot of black people who support the national front in the u.k. this some black people have seen who support the national front but old saw they claim themselves that they're actually not racist at all they claim that they're they don't have a problem with black people coming even into the u.k.

i mean what i'm trying to say is actually it's a very mixed picture in the way that appalled from hausberg is trying to you know generalize is actually not really helpful and there's a broader point here actually which is that with less to do with a so-called third world immigration because a lot of the immigration into the u.k. has been from eastern europe yeah it's not been from the so-called third world and actually is especially in the u.k. the big rise in immigration of the last five to ten years has been from. eastern europe and so they are more worried about not only you know these people are white mostly so you know this sort of the races troops that have been thrown at me are actually not only silly but also you know just wrong. the problem that they have is with immigration and the lack of their living standards falling and the fact that we're world is changing very fast they don't really know how to adjust to it and they feel angry about the way that britain is going those are very

very complicated issues and it's silly to just bring him down to third world immigration ok although you know it's kind of broadness out again i mean social injustice drives a lot of this as well and we can look from the financial crisis of two thousand and eight two thousand and nine to the present you know i mean on both sides of the atlantic the bankers were taken care of the establishment was taken care of but a lot of people have fallen through the cracks and i think this is another thing that politicizes people in what direction or the other is another question here but it has politicized people because it's we west is becoming a society of haves and have nots and in a very extreme way they rolled in berlin please go ahead. yes i would fully support you in that and i also support sonny i think the church's position strikes me as somewhat ideologically and sort of off the off the realities it doesn't reflect anything that i can perceive in europe as being the case or as being one of the

resources of extremists and whatever sort i think whenever ideology comes and we need we need to those of research and publication and. brussels then to finish it but foundation with its publication on writing extremism in europe gives you reason and solutions and pete i would support you to certainly the economic crisis is one factor on the other hand there's always been solid proportion of you know up to twenty percent within german population that would hold strongly anti-democratic fuz you know including anti human rights and fundamental rights for you against foreign gays lesbians and all the typical talk of groups all on the one hand it is an economic crisis that has its effects on the other hand some social psychology that has always been there you know again i'm an american is what i'm an american as well and you know and and i have to say that on. a limited i do agree with you

because there is this cultural hegemony right now and it's very very. it really crowds out a lot of discussions not that we should agree to racism or any kind of abuse to minorities but it seems that you know everything's been said and decided and you have to believe a certain way and i feel that way that it's happened in the united states over the last few decades. you know let me let me raise two points first of all we are trapped in a vocabulary that is created by the cultural marxists left like extreme right wing there are no extreme left wing the left has been running the show in terms of molding culture education for decades and decades throughout the western world we have no left wing extremists people who disagree with us or against human rights we define what human rights mean. twenty five years ago in the united states people looked askance at gay anything many states criminalized homosexuality now we attack

putin as being into human rights and democratic which he may in fact he may in fact be a thug i'm not even going to certainly is not the case on the cross he does not support gay rights well he's not again it is just a ride this is one of the one of the misted or if the media always is propagating right now you know i may have a lot of people other don't i just don't like you know it's that's not the case here you know sunny can you speak to that because i totally agree with you ok no problem with that sunny i mean going to go to center here you want to finish up go ahead i mean right. you know i what i what i what i wanted to say is that the left determines the vocabulary and what is the content of human rights and then in the case of putin they selectively target people whom they don't like as right wing extremists are homophobes. what happens all the energy field is entirely with the left now the gentleman from the guardian i think made

a valid point that the thing that right wing parties and i would not use rightly extreme parties but parties of the right what they object to will very often be a mixed bag and will depend upon the region in which you find them obviously in england there has been a larger number of eastern europeans than third world people who are coming in and there is some grumbling about that in germany on the other hand most of the new immigration seems to be from africa the middle east and there's a longer eastern europe pain but i think that in all of these areas where you have the rise of what is called a new right there is dissatisfaction with with left wing hegemony my my friend in berlin does not seem to be aware of how widespread this agenda he is and having spent the last forty years and in an academic lunatic asylum i assure you that it is total in many many quarters of american life. i was in academia for

a while i founded you constraints are not going to let me go ahead jump in london. yeah i mean i think spending time in the lunatic asylum is kind of affected his you know thinking a little bit is that the point is that in the u.k. and actually across europe values have changed cultural values have changed more broadly to become much more tolerant much more open much more liberal and space even in the united states so people do much work what white is going to do it's a good thing i mean just what is it is that related doesn't necessarily mean that this is that the left has sort of some done some sort of a takeover in fact on on economic terms the right which is one of we've become a much more equal unequal society the bankers as you pointed out have become you know much more powerful they've managed to get away with you know holding onto power and respect and been bailed out despite the two thousand and eight crash even is a lot of people

a little bit have fallen through the cracks so actually what's happened is that even while our societies have become much more open deborah tolerant and even more accepting of immigration in the u.k. there is far more acceptance of immigration that's ever been in that across europe to the problem is that people feel that the pace of change especially economic change is affecting their livelihoods and that a lot to do with the way our economic systems are and the way that the bankers of pretty much made sure that the society remains unequal you know and the financial elites have made sure that it carries on and so to try and blame cultural marxism is it's so redundant it's so one nine hundred sixty s. i can't even begin to you know start on it because the world has moved on basically the problems that we face now are much more to do with growing inequality in stabilisation people feeling that their livelihoods are not secure and as

a result especially a lot of the youth in western europe are turning towards extreme groups because they feel like those don't. people articulating. it were found were apparently what a lot of time let me let me go to harold in berlin because i think sunny is really on the something here because you have an economy that is crueler and meaner than ever before ever since the end of the second world war and then you have a cult and then you have a different cultural said i mean this is the disconnect here i think that a lot of people are feeling again it seems to me left to right traditional left to right in europe you know it's a plague on both their houses because they're the establishment if you just move a little bit to one hundred degree or the other but they still have power here and i think this is frustrating for a lot of people because a lot of people did fall through the cracks over the last decade. absolutely and as i did before i can support that i was just chuckling a little bit to myself when you watching us really get it getting getting polarized certainly told me that we had probably not much of

a solution to help in this because we were sort of radicalizes and you know we might we might find that and life something i could certainly sort of drag on with the debate and you know not ask where are the marxist left wing powers on europe i don't see that but i think i think we shouldn't engage in that and you very much actually in the intro i should have said more clearly i am an academic yes but first of all i'm a therapist and i'm a practitioner so i mean if i'm me it's more interesting to actually do more research about and talk more about what we actually do yes interesting ask the question might be you where it actually comes from the problem with extremists and right from the stream isn't so know what to practice in this teaches social workers actually do media work a still what kind of journalism do we need what kind of debates do we need so that we can actually well you know i mean we've run out of time and we have a debate on this program many thanks to my guest in london berlin and in harrisburg and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are can see you next time and remember cross town.

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