it is a crisis situation here they become trees only weeks away from default and and looks like the the western powers that are so gleeful about the illegal overthrow of this government are going to be able to cough up the money to keep this economy going because if it doesn't do that then it's going to be a problem for everybody well first peter i would like to correct you these people are not their position anymore they are in power in kiev defacto at least a few people doubt that they will be in power for the next few years because the e.u. and the united states very extremely quick in a recognize in their legitimacy all of these new leadership even though as you rightly said they deal between the un accord each additional was on they give even of us not on kind in power over to these people and it's it's a scandal that the three foreign ministers all of the e.u. countries france germany and poland that they guaranteed this so-called deal which

was not worth the paper that it was written on and none of these ministers this is an even greater scandal none of these ministers all of them appear to be untroubled by this new development it looks like the e.u. there that this face may pressure the i.m.f. to give money to create this time not to give money of course but to lend money before and it may stay on to quote each of the i.m.f. conditions were very tough. ukraine was supposed to hike the prices for electricity and for gas for the population it was also supposed to privatized most of the utility is so that they could be they could become profitable and then they could be sold to foreign company yes we'll see if there i.m.f. will stick to the same conditions but i think that ukraine's bankruptcy is in no one's interest and i think. these county

a crane may become bankrupt if completely irresponsible people come to power i mean i'm going to let me go to alexander here because i think that is you know one of the things i find very troublesome about everything that's being played out here is that very few people in the west doubt that have any if questions about legitimacy of what's going on in care and i have a lot of concerns right there because you know you could say that there are maybe there was a liberal element in care of that wanted to see a change fine but they're in bed with some pretty nasty people that have not have not been elected by anyone except for some violent rioters on them i don't indeed so can i just say one of the most dangerous and alarming of these people mr dimitri yarosh i saw today is actually angling to be made deputy prime minister in this interim government which should be a very alarming development indeed now on the question of legitimacy let's be absolutely clear that not only was the power sharing arrangement that dimitri was

talking about not worth the paper that it was written on but what we have seen since friday has been an extraordinary collapse of any kind of constitutional order mr which was removed from power without any process of impeachment. laws have been passed out and for normal rate. by a parliament doing completely the opposite of what it was elected to do. an acting president has been appointed kaante to the provisions of the constitution and steps are being taken to outlaw or at least to prevent or restrict the use of russian which is also contrary to the constitution now to talk about legitimacy in this situation is to my mind extremely difficult this is not a legitimate situation it is a revolutionary situation in which the traditional political leaders the people we

were talking about klitschko yet saying york tymoshenko they are not in control the people who are in control in kiev are entirely different people very violent people sometimes very extreme people people with very alarming views but they're the people at the moment who are in charge because they have the crowds and they have the guns ok men have if you think the european union should be in bed with some of these people from the right sectors for border i mean anyone that takes any interest in what's going on in ukraine will find out that these are a very unsavory people with some very very violent and really backward looking ideas about politics. well i think we have to remember how we got to this point in the first place and the reason why we're at this point and including this economic disaster in ukraine is because of the bad economic and political policies of the leadership of the new conviction all of those cronies that was surrounding him i

mean he basically ran ukraine like a fifth them which was only beneficial to himself and. i don't think i don't think anybody on this program would disagree with what you're saying but you're not answering my question well of course there is extremist elements within this group of euro maidan protesters we know that but still the broader base of these protesters are still remain all remaining peaceful and calm i don't think you can define all of these people as wielding guns because that's simply not the case i mean if you go out into the streets of kiev today and we're not seeing violence all over the place but the expectations is from euro maidan protesters they want to see this new interim government when it's put in place temporary leadership deliver on the promises that they've made on the original demands of the people so of course they are going to be that say a bit skeptical given the history of ukraine's political elites dimitri here in

moscow i mean can you have a transition to any kind of form of democracy defined by washington or brussels when it's being ruled by a mob. well. peter i i would at the same time agree and disagree with something that i'm on the cess on the vine can't yes not all of the people in mind on guns in the same way in one thousand thirty three not all of the people who voted for hitler wanted to be exterminated not all of them wanted to invade russia or to become monsters of you or. this is the problem you know maybe in a few days you will have less people will be in guns right now there are all of these so-called self-defense units controlling kiev and these self-defense units organized people are in all the governor in the in the west of the of ukraine in the revolt they forced the former police officers to stand on the knees and to beg

the crowd for forgiveness you can watch it on the internet and their so-called liberal. media in ukraine like the western support that. they cherish these images they say that this is the civilization this is democracy although it seems it looks a bit medieval to me the problem is that it's enough to read the programs of these people i mean read the program of jarosz he says that people who don't want to speak ukrainian should be expelled from ukraine he says that nuclear weapons should be brought back to ukraine ukraine should have nuclear status again these views of he is are shared by new book and we see shaking hands with catherine ashton and with victoria nuland and with other people from the e.u. in the united states i think that most terrible consequence of what happened in ukraine is that the united states and the you disqualify themselves as saying to me

geez after they failed to guarantee they dream and that was signed under their all spaces how can they be trusted in future. if there is any conflict in the former soviet union in russia or in belarus or in armenia and there may be a lot more conflicts who will view the e.u. and the united states as arbiters a centimeter eous this is awful and i would say that coups are not a new thing in the former soviet union they have been happening since one thousand nine hundred one and even before but the problem was that before the united states in the you were never very quick in support in coups ok he. was toppled in one thousand nine hundred one. you know will stop all denies there by john two hours later all was the united states and europe always took a somewhat detached attitude they've waited for a few days they never said that we're happy about what happened and here they

guaranteed a game i'm going to jump in here frogs we're going to want you're going to go to a short break and after that your break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine staying with r.t. . we've received. the comments which we hear from the leaders are ukrainian ready cols they sound like ukrainian selfies they say ok europe is not the europe which we are dreaming about because the family values on the mind the christian values on the mind the gay marriages law and love song and so on and so and so forth it sounds like

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and much much. only on us and. welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the recent developments in ukraine. ok amanda let's go back to you in brussels there's an old saying if you break it you own it and since the e.u. has been so. been involved in the recent events even i would call a coup illegal coup in camp isn't it now responsible for what happens in care of

right now being you know people talking about giving it loans and all of that i mean it's really quite interesting isn't it that you know the people of greece and cyprus probably find this really quite odd that the european union is so interested in involving itself in the affairs of ukraine well i don't find it old whatsoever i mean ukraine has been for a. long time a key part of the e.u. it's a very important state a transit state between russia. and the e.u. so i don't find it strange at all and of course what we've seen out in the streets of ukraine for the past three months has made it very clear that people on your own maidan have been looking to europe looking west for support and assistance from the e.u. to help them democratize and modernize their country i think the e.u. actually has a responsibility to support the ukrainian people to increase security and stability on the european continent which is exactly what the e.u. was created for and i believe in fact the e.u.

actually has been too slow in reacting to what happened in ukraine perhaps if they'd gone in earlier with a more robust policy we perhaps might not have seen so many deaths i think the e.u. with correct to try and help ukraine financially and this financial of a commander saying well how big of an event and how could they believe. they have been ok my goodness ok what business is it of the european union to determine what political environment there is an. alexander if i go to you in london i mean it seems to me and i'll be very blunt this is just kind of a very imperialist legality today but it knows better for other people i do not see any scenario right now but there's a good outcome for ukraine if you're over the next few months or next few years i mean the country is going into bankruptcy and who's going to pay for it is of the european union going to pay for it no i doubt it let us look at it go ahead our entirely agree can i can i just say something which is this mystery on a code which we are all agreed was an awful leader he was due to face an election

in march two thousand and two two thousand and fifteen which he would surely have lost if he had lost that election if that election as happened in a normal way whoever would have taken over would have taken over in a democratic way with a constitution and a government. works worked what we have now because of the way in which he was overthrown is an arty chaotic and fragmented situation in which everything is falling apart and that is precisely because of the wholly illegitimate way in which this was done preempting the result of a democratic election now it was not in the e.u.'s interests it seems to me for that to happen and if we have an economic crisis on our hands which is going to be far worse than it would have been had we had a functioning government in kiev with working within

a proper constitutional system ok and you know you has to pay the bill of that well what is the surprise. it seems to me where and when and look and remembering because they are new and lead conversation everything is going to plan because they want the e.u. in washington want to have their people in charge in kiev they don't want elections there they don't want to democracy there because they won't be able to choose who's in power they're doing it right now as we speak well. where play a devil's advocate here for some time. speaking about. i think that here was corrupt and ineffective show that he had one good thing about him he looked for a compromise. not only is he offered the position the position of their prime minister. he also offered the e.u.

several ways out of the crisis before the meant he actually didn't cancel this. association agreement with the you he just postponed it and he suggested try later negotiations between the e.u. law school and kiev who are in out the differences on the trade courses and the answer from brussels was no we won't have try later negotiations we're only going to talk to you so the e.u. indeed its role in the key of was extremely negative i would like to hear what armando would respond to me you know when she says that the you got involved too early well i think that the involvement of the u. was. wholly negative because even now the things that are coming from the e.u. you know like warnings. are brought you know chairman of the european parliament's committee he came to ukraine today and he said that ukrainians should stop when

chant because this may provoke russia's intervention there are no signs of russia's intervention there was not a single statement by the russian leaders that would make it look forcible there were no intercepted conversations nothing but steel you know the e.u. frightening ukrainians by the scarecrow over russian intervention created this terrible atmosphere or witch hunt so i think the elmar brok is the last man quarter fight to stop the witch hunt because he believed in the wages how can you stop that which of if you will if you believe in that which is ok a man to do when replying to a demon which is sad to say here first of all of course elma brock i mean he doesn't represent the e.u. i mean his comments are wholly unhelpful of course but hey it's not representing the. you you he's not a leader of a member state to an e.u. official and i just want to return to the point that was raised earlier about how

we should have waited until the president elections next year i mean quite frankly i don't think there's any doubt that these elections were not likely to to have been free and fair i mean the last parliamentary elections in ukraine and we know that they were far from being free and fair this was widely reported so quite frankly the chances of presidential elections being free and fair was not very likely i mean mr yanukovych which is rule full democracy going downhill very quickly in ukraine going anywhere you look at the union's mission to save democracy and in ukraine can you answer that question why is it your responsibility i mean let's look at it from the other way it's not the european union there's a demand here it's the it's the ukraine that is demanded from the european union for many years a closer relationship both politically and economically i mean the european union does not go around looking for countries to save the request came from ukrainian political elites from civil society from sense from society as

a whole they want to have this engagement with the e.u. they want to have the relationship but what we have seen also going from president to cooperate and his government was one of those and one of the big problems here is that it is so divided country it's a divided country our xandra can you address that here because again you know we we have these differences in eastern west and that's what's happening in kiev right now is giving plenty of people good reason to say hey you want kiruv you want my dog you can have it because a lot of people are dissatisfied with the kind of political slogans and ideology that is spewing out from care of right now and they don't want to have anything to do with it. well exactly because of course from the point of view of the people in the eastern ukraine this is the third time that a government they elected has been overthrown it happened in two thousand and four it happened in two thousand and seven and it's happened again and not only has it happened this time but we're seeing people like mr yarrow should we talked about

before and others like him speaking in the most extraordinary way and talking in a most repressive way and not just about russians by the way but about jews the chief rabbi of the ukraine has said the jews are no longer safe there now when that happens both course people in the east and the south of the ukraine who do not share the views of some of the people on my done are concerned and of course that accelerates process of fragmentation in a situation where the constitution is no longer working which it isn't at the moment you know i think you know amanda speaks about democratic elections not happening in two thousand and fifteen we never got there we never found out up to a few months ago the e.u. was dealing with mr yanik over which as the democratically elected president of the

ukraine they were dealing with the parliament as the democratically elected parliament of the ukraine now we're told that in two thousand and fifteen that might not have been the case and in that as as a result of that we have total chaos in kiev now repression all over the place men with guns and you know i am amazed by this denial that the still is on this question when the facts on the ground speak overwhelmingly for themselves and people in the south and east for the first time seriously talking about secession you know in here in moscow how do you see that the issue of the session because it's you know it's it's always been there at the. in the crimea looking for an opportunity like this because they don't like the rule from care of how is this going to play out because i know it was a lot of there's a lot of tensions here there's a lot of tempers flaring what's going on in the east and south. i don't believe

that ukraine a will split. of course what's going on there is a lot of injustice. you know people in the east and in the south of ukraine they lived under the soviet union they were formed under the soviet union so they have a lot of good things you know that they inherited from the soviet union they also have some bad ones and the bad one is to always look up to the authority to walk up to kiev to fulfill the orders even though these orders are now coming from possibly the people who are like mr jarosz i think it's a scandal that mr jarosz who holds all been the anti-semitic muse is going to become a deputy prime minister of ukraine i think it's a scandal that mr tag me bork is median european leaders that for the first time since i think nine hundred thirty nine we have this situation. i was sorry that i'm

on a could not finish i think i can go forward for thinking you know when you say that elections were criticized by the media so that means that the next election is going to be unfair. i don't know then it's very easy to invalidate any election in the world i'm a journalist i walked with western journalists i know how easily they report about the breach or electoral process in other countries not in the room i mean international organization folks i'm really sorry i wish i really wish we had more time but we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in brussels london and in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember i'm. really busy.

pulls. a little. bit of the. pain of the young girl's cammo for the future hunger. between two and three hundred million guns the united states so you can act like they're not here and keep kids away from them. deposits not if they water you know i mean this teaches them a lot of rope spoke ability and simply come to pay through the eyes of children if we can't do it for our children move for future what is the country before.

the dawn the help to buy scheme for real estate which is a copycat of fannie mae and freddie mac. debacle which caused a sub prime crisis two thousand and seven the british energy corporations are going to take fracking even though in america it's been proven to be completely on economical and environmental disaster but they're going to do it here anyway because why nobody in the media here except for maybe george will be up over there to guard him will say anything about the fact that this is an ecological disaster and more importantly an economic boom dog all that will increase britain's debt to even higher than it is right now the highest it's been a decade. the

be . dramas that can't be ignored to. stories others refuse

to notice. the faces change lights never. filled picture posted. from around the globe. up to. fifty.

trends arrow to vnukovo report your best way to the heart of moscow. but i worry about my own ultra nationalist groups are seeking to grab the top jobs in ukraine's government as a list of potential ministers a set to be pulled the four protesters in kiev. meanwhile demonstrators in ukraine south are defying the country's new leadership pushing for greater autonomy and protesting against the neo nazi groups they're gaining momentum they're. religious stanch and runs high in london with a local community organizing christian street patrols in response to a muslim initiative set up earlier. and the european parliament blasts the trio of international landers for their bailout program saying the troika needs fixing.