people who benefit by swastikas are those who want to try to discredit the protesters so the idea that the protestors are busy putting in place symbols of hitler i think proposed for posterous what about the armed men in balaclavas because they're like reno for for a fact that they're behind the siege of the government buildings and by now government institution city halls have been taken over by protesters and in a lot of for ukrainian when this apology is what about down while the true this is happened it's also true this is a reaction to for use of a process of government by a c.e.o. to coach the seattle coverts was the beneficiary of mr usually goes democratic aspirations so young which would be free and fair election in two thousand and ten and unfortunately since that time as president he has put increasing authoritarian strictures on the opposition so that led opposition to take up arms to continue with to enforce their democratic aspirations mischaracterizing the situation we say

they took up arms to the point is the best you know to covert and this is why he's no longer in power he authorized the use of live force including snipers as a form of crowd control against largely on protesters this is a this is a crime this is a crime well i think his argument would be that it is the protesters who are started opening fire against the police and riot police but i think one thing we can agree upon is that was the or it is very very complex in ukraine is certainly complex and the key psychological difference between the west and russia i would argue is that the west as usual hold for the best and russia as usual fears the worst and probably they are in democratically inspired protesters and i think we can also agree that there are some radical forces the question is of course. you know what is the share percentage of of each of the group and what i would like to ask is is russia. is proven wrong and this revolution this uprising is all about

democracy then i guess we will all benefit but what if the west is proven wrong and those ultra nationalist anticipated forces prevail would that be to the detriment of all the parties involved have you ever heard of george orwell absolutely in nine hundred eighty four yes george orwell said totalitarian politics or courage arise by the use of smear words like if you semitic and extreme ultra nationalist we have not seen actions over the ultra nationalist or for that matter even if you submit it could well have killed yesterday as synagogue was attacked in the ukraine it is part of public record. who would who talk to well nobody knows but it was attacked the truth exactly no news made was the who. so it's quite possible these would provoke a tour's well i mean you can argue are about who actually did that but one thing

for sure is that in many of these municipalities protesters are now in control so they're calling the shots so if a synagogue is attacked once they arrive in power then maybe they have something to do with that oh i think you're stretching you're stretching for a reason to target to draw the protesters out so unfortunately maybe i am indeed stretching but i would like to draw one historic parallel ukraine have pretty strong used to have pretty strong ties with libya under the good after regime in ukrainian nurses ukrainian doctors used to worry there and i remember when the events in libya were unfolding there was the narrative was between the same that it's a genuine democratic uprising sure there were some radical forces within the opposition but once they get alfie is ousted those militias will laid down arms they will no longer be part of conventional politics and that obviously didn't happen how can you be sure that those some of those radicals some of those ultra nationalist nationalist forces. won't prevail in this quagmire the situation in libya is very

different from the situation in ukraine we knew and this is we understood even as khadafi was in power that there were extreme is the libya. you're right that some that there was a hope that would to doff the left what would follow would be something beneficial something democratic and that has not happened. but in ukraine the situation is vastly different we know worried about islamic extremists in ukraine would argue that we're not really worried about nationalist extremists in ukraine if you look carefully there has been nothing incendiary said by the probably sector leaders nothing incendiary said by this of johnny book since the year ommadawn appeared although there are quotes from the sistani book from years ago which artists and jerry we've seen on close to model rhetoric coming from people in the mind on what people who have been producing that close to model of rhetoric they've been

taking over government buildings there been taking over city calls i wonder how would that be perceived in the united states if occupy wall street protesters were to take all over a city hall and washington d.c. how would that be perceived would that be still be labeled as as a peaceful protest that would be labeled as disorderly behavior but let's all just stand something something which i haven't heard you acknowledge and that is that the policies of misty are no coverts were authoritarian they were repressive and it's natural that people will respond forcefully against authoritarian repressive policies people who are finally fed up with those restrictions as well as of course with the massive corruption. so on i am not justifying the seizure of buildings are just explain to the circumstances which has happened well you seem to be condoning some of the tactics employed by the protestors and i would even agree with you that their young a call which wasn't the most efficient ukrainian president ever even though of that

country is yet to see a very effective leadership let's put it that way but i wonder what's the point of in danger in ukraine's nascent democratic system by siding with the protesters so on equivocal as the united states has been doing because you know you can blame all things on the by the one would think that democracy is more precious and democratic institutions democratic procedures should be valued higher than ousting an unpleasant or even a death to tory leader from power especially when you have elections coming up next year the united states has also suggested that the protests suit should demonstrate restraint and i agree with that they certainly did things which we perhaps would of advise them to do but if you contrast their behavior with the behavior of the burka as ordered by you will recall which the one saw it was brutal of slaughtering scores of people the other side was seizing buildings there's no comparison

no you talk about the presidential election was scheduled for two thousand and fifteen we all knew mr coverts was preparing to steal that election the same way he tried to steal the election of two thousand and four when i was in kiev. micio going to make sure that the most popular politician is lord who is not in jail with the police go could not run in the presidential election of two thousand and fifteen well i'm busted or you don't know where i did or did russia complain yes correct i don't have a crystal ball i do have political analysis and historical analysis and if you look at the historical analysis you see mr young tried to steal a lection ten years ago it would not be surprised if you tried to steal the election in two thousand and fifteen well ambassador is that using your logic taking a logic it would mean that we should have to give. process to any time there is any suspicion of manipulation of the elections i think democracy works the other way

around you first wait for the results you see whether the person whoever is elected and then you protest but you seem to be suggesting that you should intervene beforehand and in fact i think this is what we actually saw on the ground with their american officials and i would like to ask you about something that you wrote fairly are reason see that i didn't say that at all what i suggested was your claim that all the all the protests are to do is wait for the two thousand and fifty the lection was force based upon your coaches record first in two thousand and four and then since two thousand and two now. let's talk about let's talk about the union issue protest in ukraine let's talk about the quote unquote american role in a protest while the. lever put it puts you a question because in one of your recent op eds you called washington's approach sensible you deny that the united states was meddling in the ukrainian affairs and that's despite the fact that the state department's assistant secretary of state

for european affairs miss noland appeared on the independence square we have a bag of cookies for the protesters but i think you can take it as you know just a difference in diplomatic culture what i would like to ask you though if that doesn't count as as meddling how would you feel about russia's foreign minister sergey lavrov appearing at one of the american protest rallies let's say occupy wall street rally and handing out caviar and let's say bought go to the protesters how would that be perceived well i think you i think you having trouble understanding that you have a repressive government in ukraine there's not a repressive government in washington who want a life and you lose a show you're going to raise when you're going to omit us me question well some people take an issue over the people who take a little of that are people who represent authoritarian regimes you're probably perhaps as you are a newscaster and the country was that which is authoritarian and therefore you don't want to see a democratic country on your on your doorstep

a democratic country in ukraine well in fact i believe that i leave in a democratic country i understand why you have to see to live in a democratic country just soviet soviet general source were to say that and we knew was not true that we know it's not true no but what will gordon regarding the united states in the demonstrations in ukraine tauriel nuland showed up and handed out some cookies she was expressing support for the free right to demonstrate that's it but she is an official and her appearing on that square is is taken as a as an american position on that issue it's not about that she was expressing support for peaceful protest now contrast the american as. what the russian action a very important official in russia mr gloves you've told through the use of force to clear the square mr gotobed used force mr glaus it was encouraging was the only coach to murderers own citizens well ambassador i heard i heard you make that point before but mr glascock is there really well let's say in significant figure in the russian politics he doesn't hold a public office he's not even

a member of parliament he's a former political with very little weight in russia's political circles but i'm back there have said we have to take a very short break now i hope it will come back to this discussion and what we are going to discuss is how much of the geo political maneuvering in ukraine is about ukraine and how much of it about russia that's coming up in a few moments on world apart. let's talk a. little. bit . more. for the young girls campbell for the future harder. between two and three

hundred million guns united states so you can act like they're not here and keep kids away from them. the process that is they learn you know i mean this teaches them a lot of the rough spots ability to simply come to pay through the eyes of children if we can't do it for our children for our future what is the time to do the same. the help to buy scheme for real estate which is a copycat of the fannie mae and freddie mac. debacle which caused the sub prime crisis two thousand and seven the british energy

corporations are going to take fracking even though in america it's been proven to be completely on economical and environmental disaster but they're going to do it here anyway because why nobody in the media here except for maybe george will be up over there to guard him will say anything about the fact that this is an ecological disaster and more importantly an economic blue dog that will increase britain's debt to even higher than it is right now the highest it's been a decade. welcome back to worlds apart and discussing the events in the ukraine with john hurts the former u.s. ambassador to the country ambassador herbst you mentioned earlier that my comparison of your crane to libya was inappropriate maybe a bit of an over stretch but i think we can definitely compare the current events

in ukraine to what was happening there a decade ago in two thousand and four when you were the u.s. ambassador to that country and in one of your public appearances he reflected on the change of government at that time let's listen to what he had to say i remember telling my staff at the embassy when you should go one this was an important milestone. really wasn't a victory of the good guys it was a bad. as i said the same sort of people who make up the party that lost or in the party that want. ambassador i think that's a very astute observation that i think it's even a bit distant for with foreign an american diplomat is still believe that you know the party that lost is pretty similar to the party that won i think that there are similarities amongst the elite in all political parties in ukraine there is

a large number of oligarchy who care mainly about their own wealth i also think though of that there was was one important difference ten years ago i think that in the parties that make up the opposition you know you talk about the bust of shin a party you're talking about who daughter there are leaders who really are committed to an open society and to democracy mr you should go certainly was he had other flaws it's pretty clear the party the regions there's not such commitment to democracy and that's why you had all the problems of the past three months there's one other point to that's very interesting of the demonstrators on the minds on understand what i've said that they're all of that all parties and that's one of the reasons why they did not simply accept the points of view expressed in the positions taken by the leaders of the opposition party even units imma show

a man who was in his or like or was booed by some protesters on the my don when she spoke there after she was released from jail so this is a new phenomenon that is looks that we need to watch i don't i can't understand it . but you expressed the fears of the people on the my dawn were radicals. there may be some there we don't really know but it's also true they may be insisting on a more of a more honest political culture in ukraine they may be insisting on on a more honest political culture in your cream who wouldn't for that matter but i think what people in the ukraine really want is some effective leadership they want the alive to get better and as we all know economic situation in ukraine is pretty desperate at this point of time now taking you back to your years as an ambassador in kiev it didn't take long for the general public to become disillusioned with victor you should because government even though as you said he was democratically elected he was

a very inspiring later but he simply didn't deliver on the promises that he made how long do you think a new government that is going to be formed within the next few months hopefully how long does it have before people in ukraine will take to the streets again or us who question as to how war will the new government has i think frankly it really depends if if there is an immediate economic crisis it will not have much time at all if ukraine is the able to receive some bridge financing to avoid a crisis that it might have a euro war speaking about this financial issue says here is you just mentioned it is estimated that ukraine may need somewhere around. all of us over the next two years to deal with outstanding loans and if it's social obligations how much do you think this newly found western trajectory of ukraine is conditioned on the west's ability to deliver that money and i would also suggest that the appetite for

generosity among the taxpayers in the united states and europe may not be so great first of all we really don't know how much money ukraine would need to get through this crisis though we've heard various figures the latest as you mentioned is thirty five billion i'm skeptical that much money is needed but i don't claim to do more important than the the amount of money or the reforms that must accompany any loan because if the current system continues a current system where corruption is rife. anyone assistance whether it came from the west from the i.m.f. from russia would disappear from corruption ills now you just mentioned russia and i know that in the early years of your diplomatic career you worked as a political counselor at the american embassy here in moscow and i think you probably understand how russian officials or how russian politicians operate do you

think moscow's concerns over ukraine's becoming a part of nato or indeed x.-treme extremist kept coming to power in ukraine do you think those concerns that moscow has at the moment are they legitimate and if you were a russian diplomat what would be your stance be in that case if i were in any way responsible for russian policy i would like to see ukraine develop as a democratic market oriented society because only in my opinion su transparent non-corrupt market economics can a country develop quickly to a china has exactly what russia wants the at least mr putin made that claim on a number of occasions that this is exactly what russia wants ukraine to be i would say this if mr putin thinks the do your asian economic union is the path to russia's economic prosperity he does not understand economics. the way to develop economically used to be open to the global economy the way china has been well

that's also true but on the other hand the european union is very protective of its markets and the united states mind you as well so why what is still unorthodox i should say about russia really trying to protect its markets reach is one of the main reasons why it wasn't so excited about ukraine signing that economic association agreement with the european union russia has done very well trading with the e.u. to create an economic union based on russia kazakhstan ukraine tajikistan and kyrgyzstan is not the path to economic success it's the path to economic stagnation well i think mr putin argued on a number of occasions that it's not about you know you know trading within the former soviet republics he also wants to take to make sure that russia trades with the european union but i think he believes that together if you're creative if bellicose with kazakhstan russia they will all have more bargaining power but i

would like to transition a little bit to believe this is not really to know where the russia's economy has done will all be because it has large amounts of gas and oil this is sells on the world markets. if you created a business environments which would which would reward entrepreneurs who do not have a crucial russia's economy would thrive the way china's economy has thrived well i think you're even gonna mean sadistic approaches its focus on the ukrainian economy at the moment or rather on the political implications of that crisis just the other day are part of the you say in a bloomberg interview that quote out mr putin believes he should be able to dictate what kind of government rules in kiev and i would also like to take an issue with that because i think mr put it was pretty comfortable go parading with the previous prole western government of mr you should go and yulia tymoshenko after all it was on there that government bad this very lucrative for russia gas deal was signed so it seems that mr putin is pretty capable of building bridges with whatever

government there is in in ukraine isn't it i think that if mr putin had been interested in good relations with mr usual what his government he would not have conducted the gas war in the winter of two thousand and five and two thousand and six but we had similar scandal with mr unocal which is well and also was was was was of course below mr lucas shanker that's true absolutely and only too willing to use gas as a method of imposing political pressure on a country but i think it also contradicts that this very familiar western claim that you know call which was a russian stooge reaches you know it really a nonsense to anyone who knows anything about the kremlin politics because there was absolutely no love lost between putin and you can call it i don't consider micio stooge i think misty on a coach was interested in the young in the welfare of the c.e.o. which i don't think it was a russian stooge and i disagree with analysts in the west who see the current

problem in ukraine as a problem an east west problem the current problem ukraine is really a problem of an authoritarian government did state has triggered substantial opposition from its own people. and in united states since it believes in democracy has has endorsed the democratic aspirations of the ukrainian people by the way when i was in ukraine and won the third election of two thousand and four or encourage them to go to moscow on his very first state visit rather than go anywhere else because i understood how important korean russian relations or that was true then that's true today well maybe you are in the minority when it comes to western political analysis because you're right that this conflict has been really portrayed in the west as this very binary very stark choice between russia on one side and the west on the other side i wonder if it's in a way a product of mr unocal which is all in strategy because he was the one who really

tried to play a russia against the west has he really succeeded all that i think. tried to take advantage of differences between russia and the worst but i also think that the political culture in russia makes it very hard to see this is anything but an east west issue and that's unfortunate while i think many air many here in moscow would actually say the same about the west but since we have just a few minutes left i would like to ask you about russia's national interest and obviously russia have a significant interest in ukraine and russian for it is stationed in the crimea russia would also be a highly reluctant to see if you crane joining nato and so on. i wonder if you believe that to be in the u.s. national interest if russia were to lose that naval base if you crane was indeed to join a nato the united states does not have an opinion as to whether russia should have a naval base in sevastopol we just don't care because don important and we think

did ukraine should determine its own its own future if ukraine has a democratically elected president who treats its citizens nicely and that democratically elected president who treats his citizens nicely says i would like to join the eurasian economic union we say. it doesn't you want go for it we think it's a mistake but go for. so the our our issues really democracy and the way the ukrainian government treats its own people i think it's actually in the interest of ukraine to develop closer canonic ties with the european union i think it's in the interest of ukraine and russia to develop close economic ties together and i think it's in the interest of russia to develop close second to toys with the european union and that i think a true blossoming of the russian economy a true blossoming of the ukrainian economy would be the national interest of the united states while it's touching to see the american former american ambassador to be still concerns with the prospering of the russian economy but let me ask you the final question which is political again if some of those things that i've already

mentioned ukraine becoming a member of nato reach it has been encouraged by some of the western part partners in the past it was indeed to join nato if russia was indeed to lose that naval base in sevastopol i think that's would sooner or later provoke a very strong reaction from russia and probably that's reaction would also be negative eat in i understand that having ukraine on to the west an umbrella is very valuable for many western countries it's a strategic gain but i wonder if it really worth spoiling completely spoiling relations with russia i don't think would spoil relations with russia chris washing needs to have a good businesslike relationship with the west including the united states but there's an important thing you that we need to point out you know when i was in ukraine the russian position was they had no objection if ukraine joined the e.u. they did have an objection of russia join nato so the russian position has changed in horn in the past year or so and that's unfortunate well ambassador harsh to have

to say that no one as of yet has all for ukraine the e.u. membership and i don't think it's going to happen that's kristie i agree future but i think we have to leave it here i really appreciate your being on the program thank you to our viewers please keep the conversation going on our twitter you tube and facebook pages and hope to see you again. same place same time here on worlds apart. this is something you adjust your mental tuning fellow children of the industrial revolution we come face but nobody seems to be running out of steam as well as the oil coal gas water it's all true. lisa but this energy crisis suggests yes we have

a recession obama is wise and more such does not supply just a futuristic stick you know next old pipeline stripper sites to. dramas that can't be ignored to. stories others to a few snowdrifts. faces changing the world lights now. so picture of today's news no longer from around the globe. local. t.v. . winter is when the sahara comes to life in a way says palm trees are being harvested. people are waiting for the biggest event of the year. the desert festival. this

is true it is very out of this race leading camel races have spent the last year preparing for the grueling marathon. the day before the race there's a heavy sandstorm overcoming the power of nature is a never ending challenge. a desert winter on r.t. .

a transit route to the nuke of the report your best way to the heart of moscow. ukraine's ousted president who dismisses the country's interim leadership as illegitimate and asks moscow for protection. while pro russian occupy a parliament building in southern ukraine with hundreds of supporters gathering outside to protest the rise of ultra nationalists in kiev. said i am. no real expert on china but. on days otherwise of the new you are somebody to china record obama's latest round of diplomatic nominees are accused of being the most clueless ever and allegedly behind the drums for two minutes. and another day of violence in venezuela unrest spreads further outside the capital with fear street battles other crime and poverty breaking out in the no.