complex in ukraine is certainly complex and the key psychological difference between the west and russia i would argue is that the west as usual hopes for the best and russia as usual fears the worst and probably there are in democratically inspired protesters and i think we can also agree that there are some radical forces the question is of course. what is the share percentage of each of the group and what i would like to ask is is russia's proven wrong and this revolution this uprising is all about democracy then i guess we will all benefit but what if the west is proven wrong and those ultra nationalist anticipated forces prevail would that be to the detriment of all the parties involved have you ever heard of georgia or will absolutely in one thousand nine hundred four us george orwell said totalitarian politics or courage to arise by the use of smear words like if you semitic and extreme ultra nationalist we have not seen actions over the ultra

nationalist or for that matter even if you submit it could well in general care as if they as a synagogue was attacked in ukraine it is part of public record. who would who talk to well nobody knows but it was attacked the truth exactly. who. so it's quite possible these would provoke a tours well i mean you can argue are about who actually did that but one thing for sure is that in many of these municipalities protesters are now in control so they're calling the shots or if a synagogue is attacked once they arrive in power then maybe they have something to do with that oh i think you're stretching you're stretching for reasons of torah that control the protestors and so unfortunately maybe i am indeed stretching but i would like to draw one historic parallel ukraine have pretty strong used to have pretty strong ties. with libya on the again after regime many ukrainian nurses

ukrainian doctors used to worry there and i remember when the events in libya were unfolding there was the narrative was pretty much the same that it's a genuine democratic uprising sure there were some radical forces within the opposition but once they get alfie is ousted those militias will laid down arms they will no longer be part of conventional politics and that obviously didn't happen how can you be sure that those some of those radicals some of those ultra nationalist nationalist forces won't prevail in this quagmire the situation in libya is very different from the situation in ukraine we knew and this is what we understood even as khadafi was in power that there were extreme as to libya or you're right to some that there was a hope that would gadhafi left what would follow would be something beneficial something democratic that has not happened. but in ukraine the situation is vastly different we know worried about islamic extremists in ukraine would argue that

we're not really worried about nationalist extremists in ukraine if you look carefully there has been nothing incendiary said by the probably sector leaders nothing incendiary said by this attorney book since you omadhaun appeared although there are quotes from the sistani book from years ago which artists and gerry we've seen on close to model rhetoric coming from people in the mind on what but the people who have been producing that close to model of rhetoric they've been taking over government buildings they have been taking over city calls i wonder how would that be perceived in the united states if occupy wall street protesters were to take all over a city hall and washington d.c. how would that be perceived would that be still be labeled as as a peaceful protest that would be labeled as disorderly behavior but let's all just stand something something which i haven't heard you would know and that is that the policies of misty on a covert war authoritarian they were repressive and it's natural that people will

respond forcefully against authoritarian repressive policies people who are finally fed up with those restrictions as well as of course with the massive corruption. so i am not justifying the seizure of buildings are just explaining to the circumstances which it happened well you seem to be condoning some of the tactics employed by the protestors and i would even agree with you that their young a call which wasn't the most efficient ukrainian president ever even though of that country is yet to see a very effective leadership let's put it that way but i wonder what's the point of in danger in ukraine's nascent democratic system by siding with the protesters so on the quickly as the united states has been doing because you know you can blame all things on the by the one would think that democracy is more precious and democratic institutions democratic procedures should be valued higher than ousting an unpleasant or even

a dictatorial leader from power especially when you have elections coming up next year the united states has also suggested that the process suit should demonstrate restraint and i agree with that they certainly did things which we perhaps without advise them to do but if you contrast their behavior with the behavior of the burka as ordered by you will recall which the one saw it was brutal of slaughtering scores of people the other side was seizing buildings there's no comparison no you talk about the presidential election that was scheduled for two thousand and fifteen we all knew mr covert was preparing to steal that election the same way he tried to steal the election of two thousand and four when i was in kiev. micio going to make sure that the most popular politician is lord who is not in jail with the police go could not run in the presidential election of two thousand and fifteen well i'm busted or you don't know where i did or did russia complain yes

correct i don't have a crystal ball i do have political analysis and historical analysis and if you look at historical analysis you see mr young tried to steal elections ten years ago it would not be surprised if he tried to steal the election in two thousand and fifteen well ambassador is that using your logic taking a logic it would mean that we should have preemptive. protest any time there is any suspicion of manipulation of the elections i think democracy weren't the other way around you first wait for the results you see whether the person whoever is elected and then you protest but you seem to be suggesting that you should intervene beforehand and in fact i think this is what we actually saw on the ground with their american officials and i would like to ask you about something that you wrote fairly are isn't see that i didn't say that at all what i suggested was your claim that all the all the protests are to do is wait for the two thousand and fifteen election was false based upon your coaches record first in two thousand and four

and then since two thousand and two now. let's talk about let's talk about the union issue protest in ukraine let's talk about the quote unquote american role not protest while the protest media and lever put it put to you a question because in one of your recent op eds you called washington's approach sensible you deny that the united states was meddling in the ukrainian affairs and that's despite the fact that the state department's assistant secretary of state for european affairs miss noland appeared on the independence square we have a bag of cookies for the protesters but i think you can take it as you know just a difference in diplomatic culture what i would like to ask you though if that doesn't count as as meddling how would you feel about russia's foreign minister sergey lavrov appearing at one of the american protest rallies let's say occupy wall street rally and handing out caviar and let's say bought go to the protesters

how would that be perceived well i think you i think you having trouble understanding that you have a repressive government in ukraine there's not a repressive government in washington who well life and you let you know you're still interested you're going to minute you us me question well some people take an issue over the people who take a little of it or people who represent authoritarian regimes you're probably perhaps as you were a newscaster and the country was that which is authoritarian and therefore you don't want to see a democratic country on your on your doorstep a democratic country in ukraine well in fact i believe that i leave in a democratic country i understand why you have to say you live in a democratic country just soviet soviet general source where the say that and we knew was not true that we know it's not true no but what will go regarding regarding the united states in the demonstrations in ukraine tauriel nuland showed up and handed out some cookies she was expressing support for the free right to demonstrate that's it but she is that official and her appearing on that square is is taken as a as an american position on that issue it's not about that she was expressing

support for peaceful protest now contrast the american air. and with the russian action a very important official in russia mr gloves you have cold so the use of force to clear the square micio to covert used force was to close you it was encouraging was the other codes to murder resumed citizens well ambassador i heard i heard you make that point before but mr glascock is there every really well let's say in significant figure in the russian politics he doesn't hold the public office he's not even a member of parliament he is a former political with very little weight in russia's political circles but i'm back there have said we have to take a very short break now i hope it will come back to this discussion ok and what we are going to discuss is how much of the geo political maneuvering in ukraine is about ukraine and how much of it about russia that's coming up in a few moments on well the part.

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welcome back to worlds apart discussing the events in ukraine of your own purpose the former us ambassador to the country ambassador herbst you mentioned earlier that my comparison if you're trying to libya was inappropriate maybe a bit of an over stretch but i think we can definitely compare the current events in ukraine to what was happening there a decade ago in two thousand and four when you were. here some bastard to that country and in one of your public appearances you reflected on the change of government at that time let's listen to what you had to say i remember telling my staff at the embassy when you should call one this was an important milestone. but this really wasn't a victory of the good guys of the bad guys as i said the same sort of people who make up the party that lost or in the party that want. to they're acting that's a very astute observation that i think it's even

a bit to straightforward for an an american diplomat this still believe that you know the party that lost is pretty similar to the party that won i think that there are similarities amongst the elite in all political parties in ukraine there is a large number of oligarchy who care mainly about their own wealth i also think though that there was was one important difference ten years ago i think that in the parties that make up the opposition you know you talk about the bust of shin a party you're talking about you daughter there are leaders who really are committed to an open society and to democracy was to you should go certainly was he had other flaws it's pretty clear the party the regions there's not such commitment to democracy and that's why you had all the problems of the past three months there's one other point to that's very interesting of the demonstrators on the minds on understand what i've said that they're all of that all parties

and that's one of the reasons why they did not simply accept the points of view expressed in the positions taken by the leaders of the opposition party even units a machine code a man who was or his or like or was booed by some protesters on the mind on when she spoke there after she was released from jail so this is a new phenomenon that is looks that we need to watch i don't i can't say i understand it. but you expressed the fears of the people on the my dawn were radicals. there may be some there we don't really know but it's also true they may be insisting on a more of a more honest political culture and ukraine they may be insisting on on a more honest political culture in your cream who wouldn't for that matter but i think what people in the ukraine really want is some effective leadership they want the alive to get better and as we all know economic situation in ukraine is pretty

desperate at this point of time now taking you back to your years as an ambassador in kiev it didn't take long for the general public to become disillusioned with victor you should because government even though as you said he was democratically elected he was a very inspiring leader but he simply didn't deliver on the promises that he made how long do you seeing a new government that is going to be formed within the next few months hopefully how long does it have before people in ukraine will take to the streets again or us who question as to how war will the new government has i think frankly it really depends if if there is an immediate economic crisis it will not have much time at all. if ukraine is the able to receive some bridge financing to avoid a crisis then it might have a euro war speaking about this financial issue says here is you just mentioned it is estimated that ukraine may need somewhere around thirty five billion us dollars

over the next two years to deal with outstanding loans and of if its social obligations how much do you think this newly found western trajectory of ukraine is conditioned on the west's ability to deliver that money and i would also suggest that the appetite for generosity among the taxpayers in the united states and europe may not be so great first of all we really don't know how much money ukraine would need to get through this crisis though we've heard various figures the latest as you mentioned is thirty five billion i'm skeptical that much money is needed but i don't claim to do more important than the the amount of money or the reforms that must accompany any loan because if the current system continues a current system where corruption is rife. anyone assistance whether it came from the west from the i.m.f.

from russia would disappear soon corruption ills now you just mentioned russia and i know that in the early years of your diplomatic career you worked as a political counselor at the american embassy here in moscow and i think you probably understand how russian officials or how russian politicians operate do you think moscow's concerns over ukraine's becoming a part of nato or indeed x.-treme extremist kept coming to power in ukraine do you think those concerns that moscow has at the moment are they legitimate and if you were a russian diplomat what would be your stance be in that case if i were in any way responsible for russian policy i would like to see ukraine develop as a democratic market oriented society because only in my opinion through transparent non-corrupt market economics can a country develop quickly china has exactly what russia wants there at least mr

putin made that claim on a number of occasions that this is exactly what russia wants ukraine to be i would say this if mr putin thinks the do your asian economic union is the path to russia's economic prosperity he does not understand economics. the way to develop economically used to be open to the global economy the way china has been well that's also true but on the other hand the european union is very protective of its markets and the united states mines here as well so why what is so unorthodox i should say about russia really trying to protect its markets reach is one of the main reasons why it wasn't so excited about ukraine signing that economic association agreement with the european union russia has done very well trading with the e.u. to create an economic union based on russia kazakhstan ukraine tajikistan and kyrgyzstan is not the path to economic success it's a path to economic stagnation well i think mr putin argued on

a number of occasions that it's not about you know you know trading within the former soviet republics he also wants to say and to make sure that russia trades with the european union but i think he believes that together if you're creative if they're bellicose with kazakhstan russia they will all have more bargaining power but i would like to transition a little bit to the bully this isn't really to know where russia's economy has done will all be because it has large amounts of gas and oil this is sells on the world markets. if you created a business environments which would which would reward entrepreneurs who do not have a crucial russia's economy would thrive the way china's economy has thrived well i think you're even gonna means that focus on the ukrainian economy at the moment or rather on the political implications of that crisis just the other day i heard that you say in a bloomberg interview that quote that mr putin believes he should be able to dictate what kind of government rules in kiev and i would also like to take an

issue with that because i think mr put it was pretty comfortable go parading with the previous prole western government of mr you should go and yulia tymoshenko after all it was on there that government that this very lucrative for russia gas deal was signed so it seems that mr putin is pretty capable of building bridges with whatever government there is in in the ukraine isn't it i think that if mr putin had been interested in good relations with mr you should know what his government he would not have conducted the gas war in the winter of two thousand and five and two thousand and six but we had similar scandal with mr unocal which is well and also was was was was of course below mr lucas shaker that's true absolutely and only too willing to use gas as a method of imposing political pressure on a country but i think it also contradicts that this very familiar western claim that unocal which was a russian stooge reaches you know it really a nonsense to anyone who knows anything about the kremlin politics because there

was absolutely no love lost between putin and you can call it i don't consider micio stooge i think was the only code which was interested in the young in the welfare of missy article which i don't think he was russian stooge and i disagree with analysts in the west who see the current problem in ukraine as a problem an east west problem the current problem ukraine is really a problem of an authoritarian government did still has triggered substantial opposition from its own people. and in other states since it believes in democracy has endorsed the democratic aspirations of the ukrainian people by the way when i was in ukraine and won the third election of two thousand and four or encouraged him to go to moscow on his very first state visit rather than go anywhere else because i understood how important korean russian relations or that was true then that's true today well maybe you were in the minority when it comes to western

political analysis because your ride that this conflict has been really portrayed in the west as this very binary very stark choice between russia on one side and the west on the other side i wonder if it's in a way a product of mr unocal bitches on strategy because he was the one who really tried to play a russia against the west has he really succeeded all that i think. tried to take advantage of differences between russia and the worst but i also think that the political culture in russia makes it very hard to see this is anything but an east west issue and that's unfortunate well i think many araminta here in moscow would actually say the same about the west but since we have just a few minutes left i would like to ask you about russia's national interest and obviously russia does have a significant interest in ukraine and russian free to stationed in the crimea russia would also be a highly reluctant to see your crane joining nato and so on. i wonder if you

believe got to be in the u.s. national interest if russia were to lose that naval base if you crane was indeed to join a nato the united states does not have an opinion as to whether russia should have a naval base in sevastopol we just don't care to start importing. and we think that ukraine should determine its own its own future if ukraine has a democratically elected president who treats its citizens nicely and that democratically elected president who treats his citizens nicely says i would like to join your asian economic union we say it doesn't you want go for it we think it's a mistake but go for. so the our our issues really democracy and the way the ukrainian government treats its own people i think it's actually in the interest of ukraine to develop close economic ties with the european union i think it's in the interest of ukraine and russia to develop close economic ties together and i think it's in the interest of russia to develop closer to monetise with the european union and

that i think are true blossoming of the russian economy a true blossoming of the ukrainian economy would be the national interest of the united states while it's touching to see the american former american ambassador to be still concerns with the prospering of the russian economy but let me ask you the final question which is political and again if some of those things that i've already mentioned ukraine becoming a member of nato reach it has been encouraged by some of the western part partners in the past it was indeed to join nato if russia was indeed to lose that naval base in sevastopol i think that's would sooner or later provoke a very strong reaction from russia and probably that's reaction would also be negative it in i understand that having ukraine under the western umbrella is very valuable for many western countries it's a strategic gain but i wonder if it really worth spoiling completely spoiling relations with russia i don't think it would spoil relations with russia because

russia needs to have a good business like relationship with the west including the united states but there's an important thing you know that we need to point out you know when i was in ukraine the russian position was they had no objection of ukraine joining the e.u. they did have an objection of russia join nato so the russian position has changed in horn in the past year or so and that's unfortunate well ambassador harsh to have to say that no one as of yet has all for ukraine the e.u. membership and i don't think it's going to happen that's kristie i agree future but i think we have to leave it here i really appreciate your being on the program thank you to our viewers please keep the conversation going on our twitter you tube and facebook pages and hope to see you again. same place same time here on the world cup my.

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that. ukraine southern republican crime is set to date for a referendum on further autonomy from kiev as thousands rally against the rise of ultra nationalism. few clues to the whereabouts of the elsa present in a coach as he announces a news conference to be held in southern russia after this dismissing ukraine's interim leaders as illegitimate and asking moscow for protection. under international accuses israel of using excessive force against palestinian protesters in the occupied land saying some killings could be tantamount to war crimes.