here ukraine has a new president but he has made it clear he has no new ideas on how to resolve the country's dire problems but says he wants a peaceful ukraine but in his inaugural address he issued a declaration of war and an ultimatum whose agenda is he pursuing. to cross talk to crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest. in cleveland he is a professor and former czechoslovak diplomat in boston we have daniel patrick welch he is a writer and political analyst and in moscow we cross to mark so boldly he is the senior lecturer in researcher at moscow state university for the jelling cross-talk rules in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it it's go to cleveland first ukraine has a new president but he has no new ideas to me what do you make of what bush and co has said on the back of his trip to normandy. many people were hopeful.

coming into office will turn the page. make certain breakthroughs possible and. many other people more realistic were afraid to expect it. korea for. the program which is a full scale war on eastern ukraine with the qualms with the quarters given he essentially warrants that eastern ukraine the donuts and the guns people's republics submit surrender and does arm and four of the four bush and co and his. patrons this would be peace or pacific nation in history we know that certain powers were calling for peace or pacific ocean and by that they often meant extermination of war and removing any resistance or in the descent of the stones in the way this is the case right no ok daniel what do you make of it in

boston here because there i keep seeing these windows of opportunity closing it but it is making it very very clear that the people of the east people be and i want to stress on this program the anti care of folks not the pro russian folks because that's an illusion the anti care folks he's not taking away their rights right there he's not taking them into consideration whatsoever we see the violence again against them continue well i think one of the things i think it's unfair that he's getting all the credit instead of jen psaki since she obviously had a hand in writing that speech is completely a complete boilerplate repeat of a state department edict this is where actually us wants for four for ukraine and say you know when when putin said in to be fair to put i know he's taken a lot of flak right now but in paris he said well this is what he says in paris let's hear what he says in ukraine ok in kiev and in fact. look no i was going to

i'm sorry to interrupt you keep going oh. that's all right i call him. coach because in russian means like night commode so you have a president hologram you know talking to president turned bucket and what's really happening is the man behind the curtain was as obama is acting as the distant body voice of empire and pasha enco is the water carrier for empire and they are playing out this scheme that has been on the table for a very long time i think what is happening on the ground is more important than what hugo chavez said let the dogs of empire bark that is their job you know crimea is ukrainian assad must go the shah as an island of stability in the middle east you know these are all things that various exponents of the empire have said over the years and they've wound up being

a crock of what's in those bucket it's not the things we have to be honest things are going quite poorly on the ground for key of even though it's a horrific war crimes of being committed. you have put a shame. pretending it would be hours not weeks remember that they have failed in every aspect of what they're trying to do the end the war crimes that they're committing the wanton shelling of civilian areas the strafing from the air of civilian administration. going into hospitals and executing wounded soldiers. and. dan i didn't hear any of that on b.b.c. and c.n.n. did you did you well ok it was a little bit weird i think got me and i let me go to mark let me go to mark here moscow jump in mark you wanted to say something earlier go ahead yeah there was a reference to the speech was lifted from john psaki actually the truth of the matter is that the entire first few lines the introductory remarks of poor

shinku speech were actually. literally lifted from an earlier speak from his defeated also all of our opponent yulia timoshenko they were the lines that she delivered at an earlier speech earlier this year word for word so that should say something about the quality of at least of the speechwriters of this new regime in ukraine now it should be noted that is not some new character on the scene he is an oligarchy he has made his money as a media baron in chocolate but also in the ukrainian arms industry and his media hold over channel five which he promised he would divest himself of as well and with his other. corporate holdings he has now reversed course on this and says he

will keep poroshenko has had a position in the governments of the previous now ousted by the my don porch government of. as head of the national bank and various other cabinet posts regarding the economy he held a position including a foreign minister under the corrupt orange revolution. you could go regime and he also held high government positions under the kuchma government so he is a known factor he has been around for a long time and fact the wiki leaks us state department cables just a year ago the united states noting that he was a discredited and all of dark there was severe and credible allegations of corruption against them and this is from us ok ok. ok but that's why he's washington's man that's for sure let him

a really go back to you in cleveland let's talk about right sector how much does the new president there well how much latitude does he have in policy making because there's some really nasty elements that pulled off the coup beholden to them. the some very worrying signs already when the coup happened the oligarchs clearly made a deal to put on board openly or almost openly fascist elements including the right sector and they made a deliberate strategic decision which means the white house washington made the strategic decision to put these elements in control in charge of all the security apparatus the military the police of the ukrainian state which means that although till then there are popular support for the right sector was around one percent the oligarchs and people in washington thought that

these are the best possible people to run the police the military in force mant and to be commanders of the unleashed war against all the anti-fascist patriots in ukraine and with the election of pushing this seems to continue and there is nothing in the news on the horizon that would suggest otherwise in fact the right sector just these few days make that a correlation that they are indeed closely cooperating. with poroshenko that they most likely will have yet more important positions in portions scores government and that the right sector which essentially has become the national guard the most ideologically committed force on the part of the junta of that is also responsible for the most of war crimes that are taken

place that this right sector would be president sure. president's private army i mean let me getting. to the break here so in the army looking at it again you'll hear i mean who's watching whom here because this is sounds like a very toxic mixture. it is it is unleashing i think that what washington does is keep the hubris alive just like they do with al qaeda and the nutters brigades in syria and everywhere else they think that they can pull the genie out of the bottle and then put it back at will and direct that anger and vitriol wherever they want just like they did for forty years with death squads in in central and south america there's nothing new here in terms of that what i think it's important to point out is that people will especially in the west we're talking about breaking into the echo chamber. that well you know it's

a moscow. line that these are all fascists and they keep using the word nazi and probably and the fact that hard fact is of course not everyone in western ukraine is a nazi not everyone in nazi germany was a nazi either by the way i mean that's not you have a tiny group of incredibly influential armed and people who have the ear of not only the president but the cia and nato and the e.u. seems to be fumbling around the background not knowing where their own interests lie as usual but you're right it is an incredibly toxic stew as usual well because they believe in plurality so mark let me go to you i mean you but who has control over whom i mean is that a shameful following them or the other way around i mean i want to see where the power balances but i think it's exactly that there is a balance and a given. there are reports in the ukrainian media it's well known that poroshenko was the biggest die met domestic financier of that euro my don riots but it has

also been reported that he has been the personal financial patron of the right sector for years. so what we've seen is that relationship already intensify the leader of the right sector dmitri euro which came out earlier this week and stated as a lot of here said that the right sector will now be the personal. army of poor shank oh and that euro child has been promised a cabinet position and a portion go has done nothing to discredit these rumors all right gentlemen see i will run out of time here let me go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with arkie. for the things we want. is a. history

of yugoslavia this formation as a prosperous and peaceful country was concerned that so be a success story of market socialism and in many regards it was the most developed. whom was this teacher of democracy and market economy if any republic in yugoslavia wanted for the us a it would have to break away from yugoslavia and declared its independence ok it's not a conspiracy theory it's not my speculation it's not my analysis it's a public. opinion. and punish it harshly for every slight do not some unlearnt the serbs start a business war the serbs really original cause of the war they are the complete aggressors and wrongdoers. is

a bomb. that. small. ball is told to kitchens six of them you want to own so. cool assists and the multi-ethnic society. live in harmony and joy no. one was forgotten to be told. the weight of chains on our. right to see. her straight. and i think you're. an army corps.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered on people about to mind you were discussing the continuing crisis in ukraine. ok i didn't have to have a lot of here in cleveland of vladimir i have a pretty good idea what this new president wants to do and he's uncompromising at least at this stage it's early days but his words are very clear he's not going to compromise is no federalization dissident voices will not be given any kind of platform so vladimir put my question to you is it going to work well it depends what the objective is and it seems to me that on the part of the white house that

is behind poroshenko the goal is no step is ation or peas a creation of a huge lake or ocean off chaos instability mayhem and destruction that is supposed to engulf eastern ukraine and ultimately parts of russia as well in this respect i would also like to bring maybe a little interesting information there is such a book called the devil's guard. which you describe. an odyssey body or to see off an officer who was a war criminal he was hired after world war two by the french he went to. to do his murders job and then he was hired by the u.s. to continue basically the same joke this book became the most popular book among the u.s. troops in iraq and in this book this former officer describes anyone who was on the other side of steroids and this is indeed were i think the connection is

that for the regime anyone who stands up to bend or ism fascism the current of the oligarchs is a terrorist that needs to be exterminated ok daniel i mean these types of regimes they can last a while but they're quite murderous and they're intolerant but they do for tend to fall apart because that is a ideology that is so intolerant it can only go on for so long and i'd like to add that the country's going into economic chaos i mean this is another toxic mixture here but i don't see a fascist a fascist take regime like this being in power for too long because people like right sector you can't really have elections because they're not electable but they do like power. this is the million dollar question peter you have stayed in power from one thousand seventy three and told one nine hundred ninety one thousand nine hundred one. you know it's it didn't work in vietnam it isn't seem to be working in syria it works great in libya because they destroyed the

entire country you have. i believe that the great achilles heel of this and i don't just mean the fish just tick regime but the regime change operations that washington continues to dole out year after year that if hubris is the great achilles heel because if you constantly deny that these people have agency you know you can say they're terrorists you can get all of the media echo chamber to repeat that they're terrorists but they're not and you know who knows that more than anyone else they do and what they are doing now the longer it lasts and i hate i don't want it's absolutely disgusting what is being done to these people it's you know it's emotionally very moving but. they the every second they spend on this kind of terror campaign they are losing another generation in done by us is permanently out of out of their control they despise key have and they are

absolutely guaranteeing that no voters will always be that way and that that can't last you know mark i agree with dan just said there and that this is one of the this was all this whole program our viewers should know was prompted by a message that dan made on facebook to me and he even suggested the panel here so i thank you very much for that dan but you know mark i mean you know when we look at what's going on here and you and i are very good friends and we've talked a lot about this for months now what dan just said is true i mean you know they can occupy kids can occupy these people but they will never get their hearts and minds . yeah well there's a lot of things that are being unreported in the western media and it is really unconscious and of all the blackout that is occurring of what is happening in eastern ukraine at this moment the b.b.c. tried to report among other news sources that poroshenko was reaching out to all

for peace and nothing of the sort is true the exact opposite he has he had the perfect opportunity to try to bring the country together to make some hard concessions some compromise he did nothing of the sort he has continued he offered nothing that wasn't that wasn't the line of the. regime acting government under to change off for the last few months during the inauguration speech the reports on the ground is that as he was delivering speech the shelling the artillery shelling of civilian areas in slovyansk actually intensified the western media is not reporting that there are air strikes against civilian areas in eastern ukraine they're not reporting that they're using artillery against civilian areas they're not reporting that they are using grad rocket launchers against civilian areas and this is absolutely unconscionable but we have an interplay here in that while the

people of the boss are not certainly you know they have come to absolutely despise the government that is trying to kill and terrorize them into submission at the same time the lack of any noticeable support from russia is starting to really so high level. of or low level of morale among them they are being killed president putin made a statement where he said that he reserves the right to act to protect the people of east and south ukraine and it does not appear is certainly not to them that he is doing so and this right now they are caught between. a government in kiev that is trying to kill them and a government in moscow that seems to be dithering it is continuing pragmatically to try to play for peace but this is not occurring and it's really caught between a rock and a hard place the people against ukraine you know what i mean one of the interesting

things if you know something about ukraine and everyone on this program does one part of ukraine cannot dominate the other one for very long and that nothing in the cards now is going to change that and this is why i keep asking this question you know is it going to work because they we historically it has never worked we all know rational people know it's a federalization the centralization is what is necessary for that country but the new president in the white house don't seem to know much about history do they. i think they believe actually in the white house they are the creators of the you world order of the new world and it seems to me that they are taking genesis of the old testament literally which is that before you create a new world you need to have chaos and out of chaos new order emerges and then everything will be far but first for that to happen you need to have bloodshed chaos confusion mayhem cetera and it seems that one portion of their strategy to

win hearts and minds is to break the spirit to break these hearts and minds into pieces and that's what they are trying to do on the other side. there are also people who are zealots who splayed or once in the republic what want certain people get a taste of blood something strange demonic happens to them and they are lost to humanity and that's where the right sector and all the other theories are at this very moment ok daniel but he absolutely agree with what vladimir said there but you know with this this campaign against these people in the east and south of the country i mean you're never going to have their hearts and minds again i mean too much blood has been spilt and it's this uncompromising ideology that's in kiev which western media just hates to talk about i mean i am heartbroken reading western media that's why i continue on this program to do this topic because it's

a huge block out and it's very shameful on top of it but to go back to my point one site one part of the country cannot dictate over the other one for very long it just doesn't work. well i think what the other side of the coin here is and this in turn i like this format because we grant too much space to the shouters and the time wasters when we have fairly significant disagreements even in our own camp and i would if i can summarize what mark and vladimir might say is that that's not actually historically true there are lots of societies where repression and horror and breaking the hearts and minds of the people have caldas sheens and power for quite a long time and i think that they think that we are close to that i respectfully disagree i think that there is something happening not just in the east

now one of the things that went on reported it along with everything else in the western media was that only a few blocks away from the glorious inauguration yeah right when that young soldier was dropping his rifle and fainting to the ground all minutes leading up was a car bomb exploded right near the presidential palace where you know it's right in downtown key and you also have parents of potential recruits blocking the roads with trees in love all of i mean this is the center of ethno nationalism in ukraine there is the longer that you can keep relying on only the crazies the worse the regular people will see them because if you have a massive russian intervention you will inflame the anti russian sentiments which are the long standing in the western regions of the country and even in some parts of town but us you know i don't want to be glib about it at all and i know that

there are these are horrific things happening but i think there's a rock and a hard place for moscow as well and i really think even though i know they disagree i think that the point for nato and washington is to try to draw russia into a war so that it can justify cold war two point zero and one as long as we're in the neighborhood ok mark i'll give you the last word go ahead. ok what happened also there are speech yesterday that has gone completely on reported in the western media is that there was a assassination attempt on the leader of the next republican and a successful assassination of another done as a republican parliamentarian a leader and assistant this is gone completely on reported and this is a clear indication of where poor shango intends to go this is no all of branch no peace there will be war they intend to win by subjugating and terrorizing the people of east ukraine back into the silence and political apathy that they have

lived in under the last twenty years and i'm sorry on that mary depressing no we've run out of time gentlemen many thanks to my guest in cleveland often and in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our peak see you next time when we members profit off. the things we want. to try to. people are going to. want you. to think every minute.

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