the multi-ethnic society to live in harmony and joy no. one was for god to be told you about. the weight of chains on our to. leave me. alone welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter all about a ray of hope for merely a lol in what is rapidly turning into the ukrainian civil war claims it has an understanding with moscow designed to deescalate tensions and violence there are a few details known about this understanding can deliver. to cross talk to crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest lindsey german in london she is with the stop the war coalition also in london we have alexander me curious

he is a legal writer and analyst and in washington we cross to. he is the president of the american university in moscow or across the fact that you folks can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage at alexander find go to you first mr says he has an understanding with moscow we don't have too many details can he deliver on any promises that he makes. i wonder there were reports earlier today from mr who is the head of the dong bass people's republic that he had some discussions with mr of who is the interior minister in the government in kiev for ceasefires apparently missed out of promised various cease fires and these didn't happen and mr pushilin has questioned whether in fact the people on the ground in the eastern ukraine are prepared to actually a day orders from kiev to stop. fahri remember that some of these people in the

eastern ukraine are in fact militias themselves very right wing militias people like the sect. and the rest so firstly there's the question is mr poroshenko in a position to control these people secondly does he actually wants to bring the fighting in the east to the end because he's enormously ration speech of just a few days ago suggested that if he does want to bring it to an end it's very much on he's terms and they're not which i think people in the east would accept when seen also in london it is quite curious here because from moscow's perspective they may not have a partner in care of to talk to and it is still very unclear what kind of powers the president of ukraine has particularly since there are still mobs on the my don are not a legal organization on the my dawn but still wants to have influence. yes

well i think that what you're looking at is still a very very unstable and very dangerous situation it's clear the country is very very divided it's clear that the the people in the east have very very strong objections to the to the new government and it's not at all certain what is going to be able to change them my main concern here is of course the international situation these are very the west and the fact that there are likely to be nato exercises in the ukraine the fact. that we have a great deal of talk about increasing defense spending and so on even now. everybody now says the immediate threat of an international war seems to diminished i've feared for a march that we're in a very in a situation where nato has expanded eastward where it's continuing to carry out

maneuvers as the british. navy vessel just going to the baltic sea they're all these things going on and therefore i don't think anything is really resolved by the by the election it's very interesting in washington that what lindsey said is absolutely true in my mind here because it's very unclear who is running the show or how much independence the ukrainian president to have these of either washington and brussels because we just heard before we sat down here. said that if ukraine signed an association agreement russia will sanction the country here it seems to me that the russian side is being very very patient in looking for some kind of opening to talk to somebody we can make decisions in ukraine. well. i'm pretty sure of the decision i made next a few blocks from where i am right now in the white house and i don't think that bush has any leverage either was washington or was.

my done or people of the mob which is still running the show and so far washington is missing the chance recently normandy. bomber had a great chance to saddam is put in the sort of chewing gum he would talk to him and are more or less decided what what how we can stop this bloodshed. didn't happen but i have no doubt in my mind that it's the war from there i wouldn't see it unless washington in the stance that something has to be done and fast then this thing will unfortunately continue you know alexander a good friend of ours patrick armstrong load a very interesting article the destruction of ukraine in which he points out very smartly i think is that historically. the east cannot rule the west in the west can't rule the east there has to be a compromise but does victoria nuland know that i don't think she's cracked it a textbook on ukrainian history certainly the state department spokesman jen psaki

hasn't done that. no absolutely not ideally the understand the and if we go back to the motor car analogy the problem is it seems to me that both the mind done movement and its sponsors in washington just don't have a reverse gear they're just driving this thing forward and driving the the ukraine over the abyss with it because they don't understand i think the pro process is in the eastern ukraine have now taken a life of their own and that the people there have legitimate concerns they're not prepared to speak to them the whole point about the coup in february was to eliminate any presidential candidate that had any base of support in the eastern ukraine and i don't think they understand that the ukraine is a divided society and to the extent that they do understand it they want to suppress it and that i'm afraid is

a formula for more war or into you pointed out the nato exercises or a few weeks ago russia had exercises within its borders i want to point out and it ended those exercises but now nato does that i mean is this a provocation what kind of message are they trying to send i mean russia certainly is not mobilizing for any military conflict. one of the talk a month or so ago was that russia was going to invade eastern ukraine in order to back up the protest said that clearly hasn't happened and clearly isn't going to happen in my opinion that for whatever reason. russia has decided it isn't going to to intervene in this kind of way what is happening however with the talks that took place over the last week or so during the. commemorations in france was the bomber has made it very very clear he's going to give more backing and more military backing to countries like poland to the baltic states now you don't have

to be taking sides in this you don't particularly have to be taking the side of russia to see that for anybody looking at this this can look as something which is going to escalate the threat of war in the region and i feel if you look in the longer term if you look at in large mint and particularly the accession which took place in two thousand and four when many of the states joined you this is very very much tied up with nato expansion indeed it is very much a part of the whole package are we supposed to be sold a package of which is about freedom and democracy moving eastwards rights for minorities which of course is ignored in some countries where for example in hungary we now have very strong right wing party which which is extremely hostile to various minorities but this is a sort of package and i'm afraid that the military aspect of of the is something

which is which is growing here and we have to remember that when the started right back in the nine hundred fifty s. it's a regional aim was as was as a defense force in europe that. for many. it's main economic role but there's no question in the last decade or so that military role is becoming more and more important. it's becoming more and more you use it in washington you know pushing washington's man right now how far are they going to go to defend him because he said in his inaugural address he wants to take care of this operation in the east in a matter of hours well of course that's hasn't happened and it's certainly not going to happen i mean how much of they get it back this guy up. well i think. let's take a look what's happened to really. to some extent i wasn't there was supporting circus really and then the sub going to drop him interested in our circus really starting to give advice to be referred to what kind of advice you can give them this is the absolutely are you saying now. head there really

a great chance to stop the bloodshed in this point and said and many others until he's integration he didn't have blood on his hand so he could win here there are fears of the president he could declare peace negotiations talk and this is what more schools and not only a mosque everyone in this crowded room to sit down and talk he thought of the plan to get a signal that first he has to really minute all those so-called terrorist separatists and he cannot do it without huge massive washington help so far i think there's some hawks of course on capitol hill who are pushing obama to go that he is still resisting but i don't know if this is absolutely a policy or simply i mean washington if we have some element instability i'm talking about of against an iraq syria libya and the ukraine it's a policy which is going nowhere it's a good demolition not only to all those five countries but the united states itself

you know alexander i agree with what the ad says i mean at least they had a can do one thing right and that's create a lot of chaos in the world and they're doing the same thing there's no learning curve here. there is no learning curve i once came across a comment that as the romans made a desert and call it peace to the americans make and make chaos and call it freedom . i have to say looking at the situation in the ukraine now which is the subject we are discussing it's very difficult i think to take an optimistic view even in mr poroshenko wants to slow down the forces that of their within the regime that exists in kiev at the moment are pushing very hard for a confrontational solution they have room with or confrontational solutions i do think in washington there's yet any real desire to break out to put a brake on this and i think that they're coming up against

a very powerful forces in the ukraine itself in the east and i suspect before very long elsewhere too ok we're going to start as immediately here alexander we're going to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine staying with r.t. . or c. and c. we're. going to. leave. it was a terrible mistake and very hard to take a. chance against long here is a plane flight pattern that has sex with her make their lives. a

little. bit please. please. please. please. please if. you. choose your language. according to recover the influential send us a still some of the. treatments that use the consensus here to. choose the opinions that immigrate to. choose the stories that impact the lives

choose the access to your officers. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the continuing crisis in ukraine. ok wincey i want to go back to you in london here how in the world if the plan is ok let's assume the plan is that there washington hawks and and some other hawks in let's say brussels want to see ukraine in nato how does that make nato stronger how does that create

a greater security for all its member states because i don't see how it possibly can. well i think you're absolutely right i don't think it does make it more secure i think the expansion of nato and nato has role in the last two decades which is a much more out of area operation in afghanistan for example but also much more aggressive role is playing a very direct political role is not to the benefit of the people of europe including the people of ukraine i think that's absolutely true and we're very very much concerned with this at the moment we have nato coming to south wales in the end of august beginning of september we're going to have big protests over this we hope over exactly this question i think it makes it much more dangerous but i think it's one of the other contributors said that there's no sense here either of looking at what you've done wrong in the past and we can have a long litany of failed interventions including afghanistan iraq libya

the attempt at syria and so on but there's also no sense of foresight was no sense of thinking ok maybe we're going to make the situation worse if you look at why in which people like victoria new and john mccain most of the people of have treated the ukraine is very very simply that they want this under the western sphere of influence they would like it to be in nato although what they're most concerned with at the moment is the association agreement with the much much closer into the new community if you like and this of course has very very dangerous implications for the reasons that we've discussed and is a country that is very divided the role sorts of different interests of course part of the. association is privatization and this is being proposed for the many of the coal mines in the east and so on now of course people in ukraine the same as they would in many other countries in europe don't like this and don't

like it happening so it's tied up with war is tied up with if you like an economic offensive which has been going on. since two thousand and eight and it either i think we are heading not towards an immediate war although that may be the case in ukraine i agree that the reason a particularly optimistic outlook here but if you look in five or ten years time i think we can be talking about the prospect unfortunately of more conflicts and wars in in this part of the world you know it in washington it's quite interesting because we have washington in brussels i mean whatever happens physically in ukraine doesn't affect the united states at all but it does affect your appear i mean the more they push this offensive in ukraine with this current president of his legitimacy is quite dubious to me i mean all he is is creating more divisions more more the more houses that are shelled civilians killed this is creating an environment where no one in the east is going to look to care of ever again it's

creating a failed state. well i disagree because the experience that doesn't concern washroom term because maybe doesn't concern like an immediate but in the long strategic way it does concern because after collapse of communism washington had the choices to make every effort to make russia belarus to make russia part of the rest part of what they called western civilization and the second option was simply to continue to weaken russia and back it up and then geopolitical corner unfortunately there was cheers a second the very worst and whatever reagan or only could do the job of getting rid of communism and bringing russia does arrest all presidents after him did everything possible to move russia or east and to weaken it and instead of making the friend and ally tried to turn it into enemies which is stupid and i don't know

how who are those thinkers who are doing this you know alexander ed mentioned earlier in the program that there would have been many opportunities windows of opportunity that had been purposely intentionally missed by the west hear it because i will stand with this i think that if they can't get all of ukraine including crimea by the way which they will never get this trashed the place ok make russia pay for it cause misery in this part of the world and in that sense said it doesn't bother the united states one observation i would make about this is that if there is a visible failure all the us policy in the ukraine if there is a massive crisis there the ultimate winner in geo political terms will be russia because it will actually be drawn into the ukraine and has means to reel in to the situation in the ukraine which the us doesn't have and the big losers will be the united states in

a part of the world that is crucial to itself which is you it so is the. americans really think that they can simply sit back and cause mischief in this part of the world and it won't affect them that is a very complacent attitude indeed it's also one which i suspect is going to eventually start creating resistance and opposition within europe which has to live with the situation very directly as you said so i do think i think the point about all this crisis is the u.s. has sacrificed a lot of opportunities i agree completely with their desire and ski here and with yourself and it's in its relations with russia it's fishing in very dangerous waters in the ukraine it's not possible for it to exchange of the maximalist geopolitical goals it set itself there whatever those are they are simply impossible in that region but the risks to it if it all falls apart and fails are

very great you know it would see if this solved for nato to prove it has a reason to exist because you know i think the czech republic slovakia they don't want foreign troops nato troops on their soil i mean what's driving it here because again you know ok arm spending we can always go on that when there are military brass careers eccentrics such i mean what's driving it within the alliance in europe. well there are obviously all those kind of elements that you've talked about but i think the absolutely crucial one is maintaining u.s. influence in europe and the influence of the of the u.s. is a prime ally which is which is the united kingdom i think those things are very very important i think that if you look at what nato wants to do in europe it is definitely carving for itself a much more

a much more forceful role of much more high profile role a much more political role than the one might think it is supposed to play given it's supposed to be simply a military alliance it clearly sees itself as a very very major player. and if you look at what is happening i don't think you can see the drive to war in any of these circumstances you can see it's completely logical if it were completely logical people wouldn't go to war over nearly anything particularly at a time when actually these big powers are not faced by a direct aggression i mean all the talk about defense of britain or defense of the united states from which any way their main enemy they still say is islamic terrorism but the truth is there is no major military threat most the time of course the dangerous with with any kind of conflict which involves russia and the west is of course the question of nuclear weapons as well which is a very very serious question the people who will suffer will be the people of

ukraine and other parts of central europe lindsey if i could stay with you analysis is very interesting so for nato to keep itself together in the american british special relationship to be maintain two things out to happen russia has to be the end of me in the battlefield has to be ukraine that's a very cynical view of the world and i'm agreeing with what you said. well i don't i don't want to be cynical about it and i hope that this is wrong but i don't think it necessarily started out like that but if you look at the end of the cold war the supremacy of the united states in the years after that the only superpower and so on the war in kosovo which was clearly a turning point in terms of of nato and of western intervention and of course the failed interventions in iraq afghanistan and libya when you add all those things are you can see that how the the a lot of the central center point of conflict is not just in europe we have in

africa we have in the middle east we have in south asia this is the great jeevan of the so-called war on terror but we also now have again the beginning of a new cold war which will have very serious consequences and you know you're in washington here victoria nuland started this with her backing of this coup i mean if they taped one conversation they taped hundreds of them let's face it here i mean how far are they willing to go because there is if there is no meeting of minds here do you think the nuance of this world are good even push harder with the mccain e.-x. of this world and start arming this regime. well frankly i'm not sure why move appearing on a still is a state department because after the things she said and did she had to be fired a long time ago but we know you're somewhat cynical yes we know and our foreign policy is cynical we are grown ups we understand the foreign policy is not about charity or making and i was someone to love you foreign policy is cynical so. let's

talk what is good for united states what does in the long run the best policy for united states and if we look at what's going on in the world in different parts especially in cities all those things we see today yesterday in pakistan in iraq and in libya and again is that russia is nature all ally of the united states russia can do more good things for us than ukraine or actually any other countries in the world so making country which can be your strongest ally turn into anything it's absolutely stupid and it's devastating policy which is harmful in the long run to the united states itself and so alexandrescu last word twenty seconds alexander last word godhead. very simply what i did think that i i personally think the momentum is for further escalation from the united states it's taking no risks with the international system all the time to an ideology of the us preeminence in doing

that it's losing its fret it's losing friends like in russia and it's creating problems for itself in the ukraine which you can only solve it seems to me by negotiation i'm not worried we're going to negotiate as a good way to end the program many thanks to my guests in london and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember crossfire bulls. are seen. going to. see the series called the tried to

play. a polish going to make news for your life for the story taking every minute. cut me the last laugh oh well. my a lot like the campaign. was saying this setting all. these cases just leads one. sometimes from nothing which. is so mean and simple. it's not just only about the story it's still being just if you could you see a stage eight lupita but speech was. playing and. the for.

her a history of yugoslavia this formation as a prosperous and peaceful country was concerned that so be a success story of market socialism and in many regards it was the most the developed bomb. whom was this teacher of democracy and market economy if any republic in yugoslavia wanted for the us a it would have to break away from yugoslavia and declared its independence. ok that's not a conspiracy theory it's not my speculation it's not my analysis it's a public. her and punish it harshly for every slight let some unlearnt the serbs started this war

the serbs are legal riginal claws of the war they are the complete aggressors and wrongdoers. bomb because. that. small. ball is top two kitchens six of them new it's expensive to poo assist and be multi-ethnic society to live in harmony and show not. what was forgotten to be told feel about yugoslavia the weight of chains on our teeth. right from the seat. of the first street. and i think the trip. on our reporters twitter. and instagram.

to be in the moment on the odd. coming up on r t iraq faces a crisis as violence grows baghdad experience a suicide bombing while another city falls under the control of radical militants the latest on the fighting and what it means for u.s. foreign policy in the region ahead. and a new turn in the syrian conflict syrian rebels have abandoned the city of homs but the war torn nation's future remains unclear an inside look at that coming up. and in d.c. space x. is the latest spacecraft is on display the dragon the two is designed to carry us astronauts to earth's orbit and beyond we'll give you an up close look at the future of space trying.