hello and welcome to crossfire for all things considered i'm peter lavelle the scramble to save iraq as the baghdad government loses control over much of the country washington is calling for changes in the regime all the while the region's borders are set to be redrawn. to cross-talk a rock i'm joined by my guest michael o'brien in washington he is a former defense department contractor in iraq and author of the book america's failure in iraq also in washington we have michael hughes he is

a journalist and foreign policy analyst and in london we crossed to joseph willits he is from the council for arab british understanding only gentlemen cross-talk rules in fact and you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage it michael bryan if i go to you first in washington the united states has been deeply meddling in the affairs of iraq for the over the last ten years does it need to meddle more . well you know what it really needs to peter is a decision decision needs to be made by the president of the united states do we get go back to we get involved again or do we just wash our hands of it and i got to say the reason why it's a decision is because if we're going to get involved in iraq again in century expect it's going to have to be a lot more than three hundred advisers. manpower and a lot of force is going to be needed to keep this country from completely disintegrating and falling apart. and the iraqi government obviously is not up to the task so the united states obama needs to make very very very difficult decision

washes hands of this and walk away and it's a bloodbath or we go back in with i mean and i'm serious when i say this one hundred thousand troops two hundred thousand troops which bush did not do he had he had he didn't have the number that he needed to keep a lid on things like saddam had and that's what it's going to take and i know obama's not going to be able to do that it's politically a hot potato and it's going to be tough because we're just going to meddle and more american soldiers are going to get killed along with thousands of iraqis michael he was in washington barack obama hasn't shown any particular wisdom when it comes to foreign policy as amount of i think it's a dreadful foreign policy he's conducted every since he came into office but it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation it's going to be a bloodbath no matter what yeah he's he's in a situation he's trying to have it both ways you know like michael said it's you can't be half pregnant here it's either all or nothing and obama's trying to do

this in between let's send a few advisors which is a slippery slope we've heard that before but the u.s. should not get involved at all i mean what were the benefits of the two thousand and three invasion you know i remember bush used to say they hate us for our freedom they hate us because of our policies you know in one nine hundred fifty three think about iran and iraq fifty three we knocked off the leader. iran you know in the eighty's we we helped gas you know we were back in saddam hussein in the eighty's and then here we are two thousand and three you know we take the side of the iraqis and now here we go again we're going in who do we bomb you know do we bomb the shia do we bomb the sunni's we don't know whose side we are on you know these these extremists are over on in iraq that we need them to beat assad in syria you know and let's think about this al qaeda was not around al qaeda was not around before two thousand and three in this region that some people a defense intelligence report you know said there was no links between saddam and al qaida and now look at this it's overrun with al qaida and their and their

offshoot group who is worse than al qaeda believe it or not so i don't see any any benefit there's no what is the net benefit of us getting involved at all in this thing i would do why do we have a dog in this fight i don't think we do well i think we are the dog in the fight unfortunately and never had to be that way joseph i go to you in london what militarily they mean we hear on both sides of the aisle we hear in european capitals well that something must be done it's always this mantra something must be done so what must be done in iraq. i think we're seeing obviously the u.s. president is very very hesitant to get involved in a war in iraq obviously he was elected on the basis that he would take troops out of iraq and and i think that any any reintroduction of troops into iraq would be absolutely problematic i think obviously obama has ruled out direct military intervention in terms of troops on the ground and sending the know it whether we

send one hundred fifty thousand troops or whatever he has ruled that out i think perhaps although he is obviously perhaps wise to rule that out but i think the way in which he's done it has actually gone some way in assisting isis in that they know that nothing is going to happen militarily is also he's also discussed hasn't me strikes on on certain targets but i mean this is a massive massive must be problematic obviously you are or you would be putting support behind a a regime in iraq which has has also being part of the problem yep there's also talk with military cooperation with iran and there's something very curious about the fact that obviously the iranians are backing. in syria and they are also sending troops to prop up that regime we would also be seeing potentially if if the u.s. were to cooperate with iran on iraq you would see them working with alongside and

cooperating with a regime which has been in opposition to too many of the groups that we are supporting in syria absolute absurdity all of it is here if i go back to michael bryan in washington a lot of people say it's all about mahler agreed he's he's turned into a dictator on his own but he's america's dictator they've never liked him very much one of the things i find very interesting is that america uses the figure. to invade a country like iraq to bring democracy there but iraqi voters voted for this government now the united states wants this guy to leave overturn this government i get more absurdity the whole thing is absurd peer i mean we invaded. it people may say why do we have to keep why do i have to keep going back to two thousand and three well i'm sorry our invasion of two thousand and three started this mess and the expression it's

a cliche you broke it you won't it we broke it we broke iraq. when when we invaded on bogus reasons when we didn't have enough troops there to keep a lid on it and for pete's sakes when paul bremer disbanded their army and their national police we created that insurgency i mean i'm sorry we created it it is what it is you know if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck and we created the problem in iraq right now maliki is just a symptom of the problem we created the problem and then barack obama says into that in his campaign i'm going to pull of our troops out of iraq well he said that to get elected ok got it but then he got it he got into the white house and all of his military advisors are going to have any idea what's going to happen if we do pull out and he pulled out anyway it took him four years to do it any pulled out anyway and none of this has been good we we haven't done anything right

there and people are blaming maliki maliki is a is a shiite if there was a sunni they'd be blaming him and the shiites would be all bent out of shape and as i've said many many times on my website which is the same name as my book and in my book saddam on and on it was as bad an actor as he was on his worst day never killed the number of people. all that have been killed as a result of the u.s. invasion of zero three up to this day and he kept a lid on things and it's all you know krag you know a lousy way to live if you're an american but you know we're there arac eason if they kept their nose clean and didn't upset saddam they they were ok and i don't say this lightly i was there for fourteen months and they told me that they didn't like the guy but if they didn't want get out on the sidewalk and say saddam is

a you know what nothing happened to them you know and we went up there and the best analogy is and this is the last thing i'll say for my colleagues to get in jump in is we went over there and we kicked a hornet's nest and then we would then then we walk away and go gosh you guys are getting stung hey we're real sorry about that yet michael he says it's really interesting we have a lot when looking at mainstream media that they really focus in on molecule because they don't want to it meant that the invasion itself was that catastrophic mistake they just look at one element of it just changes guy everything will be fine which is nonsense yeah i think they're they're looking for an easy scapegoat because it's a complex problem they want to simplify it say here's the problem our invasion worked you know we had the surge and you know when they want to justify all that we want to justify or training you know you know if we stay there one hundred years like john mccain wants us to if we stay there one hundred years i mean what would

the situation be any different look you have ten thousand ragtag nuts maniacs rough you're running rough right through through this country we have a they have a force of two hundred fifty thousand troops on the ground they've got another six hundred thousand in reserve if these guys can't defend their own country against ten thousand of these jihadists i mean well us staying longer what would it at that have accomplished nothing i mean this is it's insane to think that way it's insane it's a insane thing to do in the. expected a different result and ok and if i may if i may michael go ahead jump in michael if i may i i honestly michael believe me i was there i you know martin dempsey the current chairman of the joint chiefs was the commander of the multinational security transition command iraq min sticky is what the we used to say it's a long acronym and his job was to get the iraqi army and national police stood up

after paul bremer totally dissolved them that's not going to happen overnight and before him was david petraeus was the commander of that outfit the guy that lost you know his unit his his his command was the two hundred thousand a k forty seven s. they disappeared i wonder where they are but the thing about it is and nobody talks about that nobody talks about that and here's the thing the iraqi army they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag i'm sorry they're not up to it because they were totally dishpan did if we were there we be doing the fighting make no mistake american soldiers would be fighting these ten thousand ragtag jihad is i totally agree with the on that then the iraqi army would be sitting back with their arms folded go in thank you so much uncle sam but they can't do it and the guy that was in charge of getting them stood up all right gentlemen i really just mean here i'm going to jump in we're going to go to a short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on iraq say

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can you do about the ukraine for example i'll do anything. dramas that can't be ignored. stories others through a few stenosis. faces changing the world lights now. full picture of today's. on demand from around the globe.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter all of your mind you were discussing the crisis in iraq. and joseph i'd like to go back to you in london you mentioned earlier in the program about iran does washington have to be nice nice now too because it looks like to me that they hold a lot of the cards in this crisis. i think it i think it is important that we do in engage with iran but not just iran i mean other regional players including saudi arabia and turkey and we are we are seeing obviously there is there is this repression in between certainly britain and iran and the u.s. and iran and we have we have worked with iran in the past with in terms of afghanistan and there are there are shared interests i mean there was talk before in terms of the discussion about nouri al maliki being you know america's nouri al

maliki i mean he's also iran's nouri al maliki so there is that in the sense in the sense there and iran will be will be looking obviously incredibly closely at the situation and is. is it is becoming ever more apparent that actually nouri al maliki is one of the biggest factors in in this problem and is sectarian as ation of a state institutions aside iraq and iran will be looking at this very closely indeed nouri al maliki does not command all support from all all of the shia community inside iraq and i think we saw that in terms of the parades in baghdad of starters militia and that is another another sign and of course these will be taking orders from iran that's interesting to put. a militia in in the context of how iran sees that but again that is further proof not just i mean the

violence with isis in terms of engaging various sunni communities who are obviously exasperated and disillusioned with the maliki regime but also within side this year community as well who see who see maliki is a lame duck and also a dictator and unable to protect their interests globus lee as differ very soon. militia groups. are. getting getting together and flexing their muscle and all in these various call storms we're seeing further proof that actually iraq is being divided almost all seen from the outside as these two camps shia militia and isis and this is very dangerous for all those iraq is in the middle who are actually on a not unrepresented by a failed iraqi political system and an iraqi regime which doesn't really know what

to do or how to protect them look ok michael o'brien everything that joseph said very interesting because that was all made in washington every single part of it yeah. absolutely you got it and now you now i have to go back to the gulf war of ninety one because the you know george h.w. bush we had a half a million soldiers coalition soldiers on the ground and my premises we hear the fact that the forces the power to keep a lid on things if we had taken out saddam back then and the story goes well we pulled out and we walked away because we didn't want to create the the vacuum the power vacuum in iraq ok fine. we didn't create we left saddam in place and saddam did keep a lid on things but when his son bush the second went back in zero three what did

he do created the very power vacuum that his father supposedly was trying to avoid creating and not only did week he create a power vacuum he sucked all the power out of that country when they disbanded the army and national police hey there is nothing left and as joseph said who is quote caught in the middle of this whole mess the people of iraq i'm telling you countless countless thousands of iraqis are dead we talk about forty five hundred american soldiers god bless them a lot of contractors guck have gotten killed over there you never hear about them but i'm telling you the people of iraq have suffered and as joseph said nobody is speaking for them and i'm telling you half a million to a million iraqis are dead in my humble estimate and not to mention the number that

have left that country we created that vacuum when we went back in zero three and disbanded their own security forces and then and then left the surge the surge was nothing more than a response to general george casey doing absolutely nothing for about two and a half years nothing but of course he leaves and gets promoted to chief of staff let me go let me go to michael here who's here michael hughes i mean one of the interesting things is that barack obama in his remarks will probably rely upon air power and drones doesn't the united states risked turning every sunni in iraq into its enemy. yeah the air power option i know you know there's quotes from the u.s. military not on not only on this type of invasion but even on libya that you know it's a declaration of war you know you can't you can't sit there and pick exactly who

you're going to kill the repercussions of an air campaign it's easier said than done you know that's my understanding and the drone strikes alienated the entire muslim world you know regardless who you're going after the collateral damage will make the entire endeavor counterproductive so i think yeah i think obama is trying to have it both ways he's in this place of again like afghanistan this political decision you know i won't put too many troops in there let me send you know only send a few you know a few tens of thousands because i need to assuage my liberal base but the same time i can't i can't ignore everything for god sake you know he he's afraid not to do anything because of his legacy well that was the guy that didn't send troops back into iraq that's ridiculous. joseph oh let me let me let me go to joseph here in london real quick i joseph are we just seeing because of the invasion of two thousand and three just a huge sectarian war because as i started out on the beginning of the program it's damned if you do damned if you don't that's what the west has done to this country

and this region and it has ignited a sick tarion war and that the us in the west cannot stop in any way. i think very all too often we do we do frame the are going to buy iraq as if iraq only existed since two thousand and three and in in many cases it does appear as if iraq has often been taken off certainly certainly in the u.k. has been taking off it doesn't cover it doesn't feature in the media i mean even in two thousand and fourteen alone four thousand five hundred people have been killed in violence across iraq according to a of peace figures and in may think is one thousand one hundred and what we're seeing i think again it is that we're seeing a blurring of boundaries as well between iraq and syria yeah. vance once that that isis have made in. demonstrating this and obviously the the power power they're

taking a course in the euphrates is significant. we're also seeing that there are many within the sunni community that would support what isis isis do there are also those that would support you know given a tacit understanding would allow isis to come in as long as they're sort of left it left to their own devices sort of thing and there are those i think that would almost welcome isis as a way of ridding iraq of the regime of nouri al maliki but again and this is i think it's very important to emphasize we are seeing in iraq right now this creation of of two two significant groups obviously isis and this and shia militia and that can only be devastating in terms of. the impact that would have on the iraqis we haven't yet seen isis coming

down very hard upon ordinary iraqis in the in the areas that they're taking control of but this i think will change and the blood. it is going to increase. and obviously ice is very dangerous to your iraqi soldier but the impact on the bloodshed will increase. or near our kids who will feel through the rough they can. can put that they possess ok michael bryant in washington the u.s. state department or i think was the white house said that obama would limit his limit targets meaning it would get not only iraq but presumably syria and joseph just said there the blurring of these two cond conflicts here do you think that this is going to make it even further. damage the situation because if barack obama is going to start bombing syria which you know a lot of people criticize him for not doing last august it will just create this even wider conflict within the region and pull in other powers as well you know

peter there's a lot of parts to the answer to that question one of the one of the things you said at the very outset of the show was that obama's foreign policy has been abysmal and it has been and the reason it has been is because he's been so focused on stuff that he really didn't need even need to focus on for example he put all if you put as much energy into foreign policy as he did into health care a lot of the stuff might not be happening right now however you know i'd like to i'd like to address what michael said and what joseph both said yeah i agree and i agree with that with both of them the lines are being very very blurred it's now spreading what the united states has done and i love my country don't get me wrong i hate to see what it's done. what the united states did with this invasion of zero three and the abysmal aftermath of it and now it's starting to spread

across borders across from tears and on top on top of that what michael said about the drones obama can sit in the situation room and say ok send drone over drones over and zap these guys and zap these guys like it's a game it's like he's playing a video game don't send soldiers over there because if without soldiers you we don't really have a dog in the fight but we're sending drones over there and work killing people if you like it's a video game and the more people we do that too the more people are going to get more upset with the united states and i'm using the word upset i'm being i'm being ok on that over and i exaggerate depressing you know you gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember. you know.

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in poetry keep. it. to your face. this is our international breaking news this hour antigovernment. agreed to lay down arms until friday and join proposed troops. children who died in the government's military offensive. headlining to poland's foreign minister allegedly gets caught out by a leaked conversation suggesting his nation. coming up. the revelations keep coming global privacy champion edward snowden. seeking a haven from american intelligence. on the final serious.