with this conflict in the two thousand and eight war in georgia the overwhelming majority of refugees flee towards russia excluding some sort of bizarre stockholm syndrome it seems that for people in break we're republics in ukraine and georgia russia is a safe haven they often say that people vote with their feet and in the case of the most recent wars in european history it is clear whose feet are voting for whom and no mainstream media talking points can deny that but that's just my opinion. but i'll talk to my language as well but i will only react to situations i have read the reports for not pushing the know i will leave them to the state department to comment on your letter play it safe. secure yet a car is on the docket no. thank you no more weasel. what you need a direct question be prepared for

a chase when you know you should be ready for a. pretty speedy little down to freedom to walk. on air and in the financial world. to see these developments cannot stop because it only takes no demand for credit nothing to get any economic benefit in life there are absolute. hello and welcome to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lobo as ukraine struggles with a ceasefire the regime in kiev says it is committed to an association agreement with the e.u. the impact of which could be truly painful for the ukrainian people dividing

ukraine continues. to cross-talk the crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest fenian putting him in belfast he's an independent journalist who's written extensively on international affairs most recently on the situation in ukraine in london we have jonathan steele he's an international affairs commentator writing mainly for the guardian and here in moscow we cross the marks of all that he is a senior lecturer in researcher at moscow state university crosstalk rules and that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage you jonathan in london if i can go to you first president putin says he wants a cease fire in eastern ukraine present president poroshenko in ukraine says he wants a cease fire due to continue a new crane there is no cease fire in ukraine all the while care of is bent on signing an association agreement with the european union which was very unpopular with mr unocal which and we know what happened there so summit up for me jonathan

what the heck is going on well i think it's actually more hopeful than despairing at the moment i mean i think the fact that they did agree to a cease fire was a huge step forward to both sides except to do it to most of the rebels also seem to accept it of course there are violations it's very rare in any international ceasefire that you have a complete hostilities you know overnight within seconds of the signing of the agreement of a cease fire so i wouldn't be too concerned about that and i think president putin is sort. it should be extended if publishing through will says the certain thing i think the pressure should be put on the rebels from both political you know leaderships of various kinds to go to all of the ceasefire so i wouldn't be too despairing just yet well maybe if i go to you and belfast it seems like the ukrainian side the poroshenko say hasn't really honored the ceasefire so you know when someone's firing you you tend to fire back. well look that's very true peter i mean and i would be much more concerned than jonathan about this so-called cease

fire i mean since it's been declared last friday by the regime there's been massive and widespread violations of the cease fire tens of thousands of people have been displaced pushed across the border there have been several. months occurs over civilians and indiscriminate attacks on civilian centers like in churches were were at or. artillery fire the village of semi. was firebombed by the key f. regime forces par stations have been put out of action so people don't have water or electricity and with a massive displacement of the population this is a cynical description to say that it's a cease fire it's nothing nothing anything like a cease fire and that's what the local militia and political representatives of the people in donetsk and the the council been saying all week that this is

a facade that is just a cover an orwellian the end for the continuation all of a must serve assault on the people and you can call it crimes against humanity and even genocide when you when you thought all the casualties and the effects the impact on the civilian population massive displacement cutting off of basic utilities and i think. your other guest come come in there but i would like to follow that up at another time. mark but what's pushing the plan here because i don't see a huge commitment to it it he seems to still believe there's a military solution to this all the while this week we had president putin asked to have his war powers revoked revoked to send in troops the eastern ukraine that's a step of good will in my opinion it isn't being accepted in the same way and care of at least that's my interpretation. because as be perfectly clear there has never

been a ceasefire on the ground in the ukraine and there is not currently one the artillery shells have never stopped falling on the people of nova see on the people of the on the outs and lugansk within hours of announcing a cease fire quote unquote the kiev regime conducted air strikes against the civilian population of the east ukraine so it is indeed as has been said a cynical and orwellian term there is no truth to it on the ground it is a fiction it is largely a p.r. move by the kiev regime simply in the weeks leading up to this signing of this new liberal shock therapy agreement it's largely to for the benefit of the conscience of e.u. parliamentarian's who we don't want to be wringing their hands that they're signing a agreement with a government that is busy murdering its own would be people in the week running up

to this however this entire week while the operations have continued we have also seen it being used as a pretext in a cover for moving in a tremendous amount of heavy military gear of new and even deadlier capabilities into the dani it's going lugansk regions the most recent word on the ground is that they are moving right now as we speak to cut off lugansk completely. from any outside. to reach the city or for refugees to leave it so once this assignment agreement is signed i'm sure we will see some kind of excuse or perhaps a provocation some false flag event from the regime in kiev and by the end of this weekend the mass repression and state terror campaign that the kiev regime has conducted against the people of ukraine will be resumed at full scale to a new far deadlier and. more severe scope and this

is the peace plan that poor is. right we have we have a dissenting voice here jonathan would you like to react to what we've heard here go ahead well i mean i'm not on the ground and i don't think our two guests are on the ground search really important to know whether we're getting correct and accurate information because there is a huge propaganda war going on and very biased reporting on both sides so i would be i have said early on the crime has been only on the ground that american united the united nations the united nations refugee committee spokes person all the grand confirmed there are at least fifteen thought. people displaced or into the role stoff province of russia no that's the uganda speaking that's not the kremlin that's the uganda you know yes good where sort of sort of are you saying there's others saying there's a lot they're saying there's eighty thousand people have moved across the border and become refugees since the ceasefire was proclaimed. it will at least seven thought this week seven four isn't this week that's what the u.n.

is saying top all the other. previous week's. ok when i put it made me jump in here ok let me jump in jonathan. i find it really perverse in a way that. the people in the european union they want to sign an agreement with this regime in care of the probably going to happen on on friday of this week here but they have i hear no words of discussed about the atrocities that are being committed in eastern ukraine and we can talk about the scale but they're certainly there but i hear no voices talking about the humanitarian situation in ukraine and i'm not trying to take sides here i'm reflecting on what you said well i mean i think the main thing is to get our a c. monitors in there and also don't let's forget that some of the or see people are still being held hostage don't you have people i mean what are they're doing holding hostages of civilian internationally recognized monitors who were there

with the agreement of russia as well as of the kiev government if they were sent there with the permission of the two governments that are in power in the dunn and screeches they did not ask permission from the authorities in that region who are the people of danny it's going lugansk let's be let's be frank oh it's the monitors are not civilians they are military intelligence to a man ok and there's. the risk there are copious video footage is showing civilian muss occurs by the kiev forces in donetsk people lying on the ground civilians obviously civilians with their heads blown off their upper body shot to pieces in a deliberate policy of shoot to kill the was the core of it to people in the government building in lugansk the city of lugansk on the second of june when it to people were killed when a key have come on the air and the government building. people were killed that day there are several atrocities going on that can be verified with the by the video.

you know on the ground reportage it's not it's not equivocal or disputable there is the risk clear evidence that violations are being carried out yet the western media have sure no interest in covering these atrocities these war crimes these crimes against humanity i mean three journalists have been killed in a korean to two russian guys for the television last weekend two guys the shot the the. last quick to the russian journalists were shot down. so they were they were shelled deliberately by the kiev forces in lookout's previously the reason italian journalist who was also killed in what looked like to be a shoot to kill i am situation john i don't know hey i know you guys we've got this we got three good to ask you a question i didn't hear an awning jonathan do you think the regime believes that

there is a military solution to this because that's what it looks like on from what i've seen reported from the ground well i certainly hope they don't think that because that would be foolish there is no military solution to this the never is just involves more and more casualties so i think they should be honoring the cease fire they should be leached reaching out to the people of eastern ukraine and trying to find some political compromise and that's what seemed to be happening on monday evening when i think to milford shook and learned. people from the east met together and it looked as though that could be the beginning of a political process and that's what i'm really hoping will develop so i don't think one as i said at the very beginning should highlight too much the violations of the cease fire one should try to upgrade the political process and try and get that going good ok political process this this cease fire has been promulgated. it's an ultimatum that just yesterday john kerry was saying that the russians have to prove

good will about the ceasefire that volodymyr putin would have to deliver certain practical steps and one of those steps is to ask for the the separatists or they have federalists in east and south ukraine to lay down on their weapons in front of the armed forces you know that's not a peace process that's not reaching all right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with market. place we.

will come to the. city for control spend over billion euros of all she says to each one hundred people a million degrees become talk among. themselves from st petersburg to france we shall believe such as the song. we've got the future covered. please. it was a. very hard to make plans to get on here a plug in there that would make their lives. one. of please please please.

please. please please. please. please please if the people. your friend posts a photo from a vacation you can't afford. to different. your boss repeats the same old joke of course you like. your ex-girlfriend still tends to rejection poetry keep. ignore it. post only what really matters. to your facebook news feed. there's a media leave us so we leave the media by the same motions security for your party

there's a goal. for shoes that no one is asking with the guests that you deserve answers from it's all on politicking only on r t. please. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the recent developments in ukraine. ok mark at the very end of the first part of the program we heard the word russia and vladimir putin and what john kerry the u.s. secretary of state expects of russia and vladimir putin what is russia's involvement in all this we don't hear much about it we just hear

a lot of accusations go ahead bark ok i want to be perfectly clear full disclosure i have family in laws who are right now at the barricades in eastern ukraine fighting for their freedom and their lives so i do have a personal interest and biases to what i say but i think my analysis bears out regardless i have been watching hopefully for signs that russia should be doing something to protect the people and support the people of eastern ukraine from this regime that has come to power in the kiev is and is bent on using military force to subjugate them to what's rule but unfortunately i have not seen it every western reporter that has embedded themselves with the forces inside of eastern ukraine from mark friend shetty who was recently live on ukrainian t.v. to simon shuster reporting for time has shown that these people are for the most part the vast majority of them are ordinary you eastern ukrainian people they have

very little military training they have no military support they have no monetary support they have no russian advisers i wish to god that i see that they did have any of this it would give me some hope by unfortunately i do not. see it i think the move by the russian presidential administration. rescinding their right granted by the federation council to use military force in eastern ukraine is a tragic mistake i think pulling back the military forces from the border at first gave this regime a green light to begin this heavy artillery barrage and airstrikes in earnest a month ago and now without even the hope of some kind of deterrent it will only accelerate i don't see any type of russian control i don't see any type of russian support and quite frankly i think it's shameful ok jonathan it's one of these interesting cases depending on what side of the barricade you are either putin is

doing too much or he's not doing enough well i think used during virtually the right thing i mean he's he's calling for a political solution he's withdrawing the resolution and the supreme sort of you had to give him you know power to go in there with that original council troops and so on. well the federation council i'm sorry i'm out of date but it's all right keep going to get out of there was out of date keep going. keep going oh ok all right federation council. but you know that so that is good and he's calling for talks and he's sending his sort of representatives to join the talks so i think all that is very good and i think there's been some suppression from the size of the careful thought that is so so all that it's good i mean i don't want any side to be ramping up the military. question and i think. it's wrong to suggest that he's somehow weak or betraying the interests of the people have done yet sq in

changing those things that the federation council was asked to do initially well i mean russia does not have the right to intervene in ukraine even if russian citizens are being massacred it is a un thing that should be done countries do not have the right to cross from just unilaterally without u.n. authorization whatever the provocation on the ground ok and when a regime when it was doing governments have violated international relations international law by openly interfering in the domestic political affairs of the ukraine supporting financing in orchestrating regime change and approach in the country russia has every right and duty to intervene to protect the people of eastern ukraine city and belfast you want to jump in the lot said here are. yes well i think that this hold to be it not this program but the western media to be it is trying to narrow the focus and distort the picture into you know like a miniscule distortion of the bigger picture which is that as mark just said or

there's been in the in the illegal criminal regime change interference in the sovereign a first of ukraine and going back over several months and indeed several years noite as well as up that the background to this is that the nato has expanded aggressive fully relentlessly over twenty years on russia's from taters and is continuing to do so even in the last few weeks there's been massive war games in the baltics and former us eastern europe thirdly let's just talk about another point that the two months for the last three months the key has been a program of mass. violence indiscriminate violence and crimes against humanity with with food western support american support no talk about that thirdly fourthly this talk about energy politics what this is all a ploy is america trying to smash up decades of russian energy triaged with europe and trying to display the us russia for its own self interests. well ok in

the big bigger picture issues that are not being addressed as you just begun the program with this illegal regime and key if it's not signing away sovereign affairs or the country of you with no monday at noon the children must see they are signing up to the e.u. association pact they're signing they want to sign up with nato on what monday or authority have they got poroshenko when election with only forty five percent of the electorate in large parts of the country didn't even vote ok all right as he was let me go to let me go to jonathan here and let me go to jonathan here why the association agreement so fast i mean this is something that i really am puzzled by they mean they want it done immediately i mean wouldn't it be better to get a consensus on the ground i mean this all started you know back in november that there were people that wanted you know which isn't it he didn't dismiss it he did city didn't want to sign a debt that time and then we all know the events that have happened but why is the e.u. pushing so fast so hard to get this sign because if you read the fine print jonathan

there's a lot of pain ahead well actually let's not forget that the political side of this agreement was already signed soon after the crew in february so this is that you can all make sign such side of it sort of the big question you're asking are should have been asked back in early march will serve when it was first signed i mean you know i'm against the signature of that i think there should be tripartite talks with russia and the e.u. and the careful start is to try and work out a rescue package for the ukrainian economy which is on its knees that would not involve a zero sum game with one side claiming that they've won on the other side having to so he's they've lost the should be a combination of common sense until you can all make reality our enemy got an economy going to move here like we continue to so yeah well let me go to mark here i mean you know victoria nuland you find her to be a reasonable same person because none of this should have happened in the first place when russia said exactly what jonathan said before all this there should be

a trilateral commission all three sides should talk the u.s. does not want to talk it just wants to push push and push and it doesn't care what the cost is. yes from the very beginning of the onset of this when the e.u. association agreement was presented sensually as an ultimatum non-negotiable to the ukrainian government the democratically elected legitimate government at that time they said that the ukraine had to make a civilizational choice and putting this and these manichean terms trying to draw a dividing line in an ethnically and culturally divided country with no common sense of national identity such as the ukraine was an absolute recipe for disaster that has thus unfolded as russia warned at the time both the ukrainian government at the

time and russia recreated repeatedly requested trilateral in the goshi ations on an economic settlement that would. help what is then and is even more so now a completely failed ukrainian economy this was rejected ukraine europe rejected any negotiations with russia they were bent on bringing and they are still bent on bringing ukraine into the european union's the west's geo politically orbit not because they care so much about the ukraine or certainly not about the ukrainians but simply as hillary clinton has earlier stated to the it is an absolute necessity for the west to stop a formation of the eurasian union they see that as a geo political necessity they feared in the year between the signing the not signing of the agreement and the next elections that would somehow commit

ukraine irreversibly to the eurasian union and that is why all of us i don't have time here i want to go back to belfast here one of the things i think is very interesting is that this thing will be signed but if you will sign it and you know what all the pain that will come there after will be blamed on russia what do you bet. well the thought to be a pittance economic advisor. described it as economic suicide and i would i would agree with his prognosis but what i what i want to get back to you peter is what's what does all this emphasis on our perspective on russia what can russia do you know the western media commentators are all asking for for russia to do something or to preserve the i think the question is what is the u.s. what is washington and its european allies doing about this they are the ones who have escalated this crisis they have instigated the crisis they have escalated they

are escalating the crisis they are they are continuing discrete the crisis yet all the onus has been placed on voting near putin in moscow to prove some sort of bona fide a bloody or putin and. have been doing excellent work over the last few months to try and can situation daryn the geneva seventy seventeenth of april accord that was signed to try. to bring about a dialogue with all groups and disarmament of all groups that was signed up to by the you yes the e.u. the kiev regime and russia what this deal it is not being honored by the three other parties that moscow is the only party that is actually asking for this geneva deal to be implemented meanwhile all the pressure all the emphasis being placed on putin and moscow to prove their bona fide is have already been proven were the bonafide is from washington and brussels there are none they are escalating the situation they are sponsoring the regime and can that has been

illegally installed the doesn't have a mandate that slaughtering civilians as we speak. and yet there is no moral obligation or onus or examination or interrogation of washington or brussels there are going on with more pessimistic now gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks and i guess. in belfast london and in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember. you know not only are you going to. find his or.

his name was joseph goebbels he was nazi germany's minister of propaganda in the midst that he created exist to this day. it was google's propaganda it was posing actually trying to denigrate other nations while at the same time raising ordinary german so students would. keep its use of goebbels new precisely what the masses needed to hear in order to make them follow him he was like the pied piper from the fairy tale who made the rats follow that you know despite. the myths created by the chief nazi ideologist bound for tal saw in the west we have to fight these myths today in memory of those who won in the second world war.

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doesn't give a darn about anything turns mission to teach creation why you should care about humans. this is why you should care only. coming up on our team in detroit thousands of people are without running water the city has turned off the taps due to overdue accounts r.t. is on the ground in detroit looking at the crisis facing thousands of motor city residents. and mid east turmoil causing a strange twist dealing with attacks from isis militants the nations of iraq syria and others find a common enemy the latest on the middle east shake up coming up. and rolling down protesters south africa had seen numerous minor protests over the years and now a local company is offering a riot suppression drone.