cross-talk the crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest alexander in the class if in london he is a political commentator and a former kremlin adviser also in london we have belton he is a journalist who's been covering east ukraine for the b.b.c. and the independent and in moscow we crossed john roberts he is a writer presenter and journalist for the voice of russia right gentlemen cross-talk roles in fact i mean you can jump in anytime you want public about a month ago you wrote an article titled what a shank i was likely to fail as ukraine's new president do you still agree with that i wouldn't want to be in his shoes they probably wish he was still. selling chocolate he's got a lot to. the deck stacked against him you know in this war it's probably actually to be the most popular thing that he does pretty soon i.m.f. india is going to come online the gas price going to have to go up the i.m.f. prediction of the economy is not good it grew very fast so it will be a very rocky twelve months this is probably actually is going to be as good as it

gets for look a an interesting way alexander you know ceasefire no ceasefire ceasefire no ceasefire we have the berlin talks and then we have the state department saying go go go i mean what's going on here the americans are not saying the same thing as the europeans that's for sure. well think of the whole crisis have does demonstrate that. america has a separate agenda from europe if this trying to basically drive away between the russians europe if this failing a lot of the statements coming from europe should be taken with a pinch of salt because you know americans expect some of their leaders to say some tough things trust me for example that they in britain david cameron and his government are not very keen on spoiling relations with russia the companies like b.p. like shell that pressing cobden the government saying are you you know are you saying guys what are you doing we have multi-billion dollar contracts that are in russia

and you are talking about you know the rest extensions and song as regards president poroshenko i think he did his job already i think he was elected to sign that deal with the e.u. that's said done but thrown out can do whatever he wants he can you know basically sit and just listen to the or this coming from washington so i mean let's stay out and maybe look i think it's a little bit more complicated than that john if i go to you here in moscow you know he has right sector looking at him to you know the mog obviously and sitting there in in the my don they're keeping a close eye on he's got to do something or he's going to lose their support. that's absolutely right i don't envy petro poroshenko i don't support him either but he's almost in an impossible situation i agree his i think his main task was signing that new agreement he's done that he also has to keep himself out of some international tribunal or facing

a war crimes charges so he has to try to play both sides of the fence if you listen carefully to his speech as though there's some very coded language for the right sector in there so it's really down for that he's following. something other than their agenda in my opinion how did you think that train has left the station because if you look at some of the video coming out of east ukraine i mean shelling of villages i mean these people were no threat to anyone it is quite dreadful looking at these pictures here it's going to be very i mean what if they close it he was going to go to the east the first thing he would do and he did he went west ok had a nice photo ops with people but i think the train has left the station i'm really worried about that i don't want to see any kind of military intervention from russia i mean that very very clear that would be a terrible terrible mistake but the slaughter continuance can i say something on that not let me go but it's all be fair let's go to public go ahead you know it

says now that i've been in the east for the last month since i was in these election day. what's amazing is that both the d.n.i. and kiev are saying that they're going to talk even they agreed on when state to carry on talking in the me to try that before not on saturday it looks like pushing it was trying to achieve a quick cheek advantage on the ground just drink them him at the table he's going to lift forces on the ground for one now he's got between forty thousand and sixty thousand forces deployed in the east in march there were probably six thousand battle ready troops in ukraine that's that's that's that's a massive escalation terms of on the ground these chaps are letting to fight as they grew because the forces we don't typically could. state pushed it took over and there's been some some pretty key personnel changes but galatea just came in as minister of defense there's also been this this famed crowdsourcing of kits and even the people's drones. both sides have got some pretty hefty preconditions even

though they've been saying that they're willing to talk to the rebels having to lay down their arms that you can force them to withdraw entirely from the east but i mean i heard from a couple of leading separatists in the administration building went and talked to them over the last couple of weeks that they don't think they could hang on for more than a month or two so i think both sides know that there's going to be there's going to be some sort of political economy i'm even of both of them say the you know the the moment. i think the one thing the key of could maybe be used for leaned on is. you know he said in an operation speech that evolution was crimea to he is quite convinced that any forward evolved government would basically be taken over quite quickly by by people to be obstructionist and quite strongly procurement . it's not completely clear to me that's the case and one of the interesting things i mean the important thing about the separatists the d.n.r.

is they're articulating sense of grievances that are pretty widespread in the east so even after arms are laid down i think at that point you've got such a massive difference three years i know of the might on the national done by us ok john we have to be stitched together somehow somehow john jump in go ahead. i just i want to protest about the label separatists but it's ok because i just wonder underline the fact that i mean that the people are being bombed they didn't do anything other than disagree to be ruled by a i'm sorry it's a nazi fascist who. legally grab power and they're being punished for disagreeing with that as far as military operations i think it's about time there was some sort of international at least a peacekeeping operation i don't know how russia would be able to play a role there is they've already been labeled the aggressor but really the civilian

population needs absolutely needs to be protected there it's i think that's imperative and i still don't understand why the european union is just sitting on their hands ok i don't i don't think they are sitting on their hands alexander but let the it's not that who we got alexander here alexander you know this is this is the problem here because you know one of the things that really bothers me with western main stream coverage of this is that all of the diplomacy that russia has been pushing behind the scenes in front of the scenes and we had mr lavrov and berlin talking to anyone that would listen to him to bring peace to this country and russia continues to push diplomacy you know i think the problem is this we always talking about what key if and put a president finking on saying we're doing but unfortunately it's not but mr prussian coup is deciding but that's the washington people who decide what he's going to say and what he's going to do and in my personal opinion america is at the

moment not interested in a new piece like in eastern ukraine at all and there's a reason for it and the reason being that this is a grab we are witnessing and grap by american companies now that talking a lot about you know democracy the future of ukraine and your rope. the wonderful future in reality behind the scenes they are taking over ukrainian assets they have already taken all the spy ply which runs from russia to our desk that's the chemical. chemicals are going to address that to a huge and to price which i think is already being bought by the american company so what they have doing is that they're taking a fool industry chemical industry in ukraine they don't need peace in washington to be established in ukraine they will do anything to stop

a new negotiations that is why you people pointed out you know russia is doing most its outmost i don't even know what else can put in and lavrov say i'll do that can convince the americans to stop doing something but it won't work it won't work this is an assett grab this is a typical aggression ok if i go back to you in london and i agree on system level it's an answer grab it if the country becomes a failed state that it's worth nothing. yes i i think you are right on this i think that a program that's a couple of days ago. no matter what exactly does the putin once said thing that he does not want is is a completely destabilized ukraine he doesn't want it to fall to pieces on the border. this is not in any sense in his interests. and i do you think that there will be a massive step back to the precipice reasonably soon in terms of that a russian economy is stopped growing actually the i.m.f. just said because of the level to sanctions new body. inside or the russian side

wants it to escalate to this actions. do you think we will start to see some political winding down of this you know all the let me let me finish let me just want to go to john what are we go to break here i mean i guess i think that we we miss the point of the political players in kiev we have some really radical people on the ground the push angle has to be very very worried about they want results and i worry that we're going to get to my dom three i think that's quite possible as far as the failed state i don't think they really care i mean if you look at the people in libya if you look at what they did to iraq i mean and we have they can just buy oil from the bandits that are running around in the and there are islamic terrorists and what i want to say about the media coverage because i've had people coming from directly from down boss i've done several interviews i've been in contact with a lot of people and what i've heard is that our coverage artie's coverage which is the only probably normal coverage in the world of all this is actually not showing

how she's really really bad it is it's worse than what i john i like what you say but we got to go to a short break after lunch break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with our. play. golf the tried to. play polygamy for your life for sure taking every minute.

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fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and our crass cynical we've been hijacked lying handful of transnational corporations that will profit by destroying what our founding fathers once will just i'm tom market and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem try rational debate in a real discussion critical issues facing or not to find her feel ready to join the movement then walk a little bit. more it's probably the most complex and difficult human activity.

of all. i'm not in the phenomenon of friendly fire probably extends back to the invention of gunpowder. i just killed a bunch of people in a family don't know what their families there are to us people. right now reading. this some of it shoots my brother in the leg not intentionally because of it because it was night times four in the morning even the best commanders even the mesh shoulders. are going to make mistakes does this whole idea of brotherhood an author and an end come. in this sense it was in this context that has absolutely no place.

as a new physician i swear to abide by the hippocratic oath. to the best of my ability and judgment. i will prescribe for the goodness of my patients. i will not give deadly doses to anybody. or advise of those to do so. i will never do harm to. doctors of the dogs. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered to remind you we're discussing the recent developments of the ukraine crisis.

ok i'm going to go back to you in london and some of the things you said earlier in the program time really quite interesting because the way things are going this this anti-terrorist operation they're not gaining any results or killing people but they're not getting any political results and it's dividing the country more and more and i would surmise that pretty soon they're going to feel like they're occupied by kiev and that's something that is untenable that will keep the country very divided we could even see something like a guerrilla war start which russia does not need on its border go ahead. in many respects i actually agree with a lot of that i mean the ukrainian forces already being seen in a lot of the east. badly this this is tearing apart i mean you're starting. what's amazing is senior separatists have told me a coffee last couple of weeks at the beginning of my dorm the supporter they saw

his antics as a crusade against corruption you know they can sign on with a lot of the things that people are saying there in kiev and look where it's gotten i mean if you've got a national data that's come out of might on that doesn't speak at all to the east doesn't gauge them it doesn't do anything for them doesn't really work them in and then in the east there are more maybe than at any point the last decade starting to see themselves as separate has been collected is not understood some one done boss said to me the other day you know party they're talking about building a wall to keep us while things are what is the source it's all about and how to spin the game of thrones to. instill advance i mean a city of a hundred twenty thousand people has no electricity really somewhere around thirty to forty thousand people a flared muesli cotton club persuaders you have to go risk there in at the moment i mean the people who are left to generally be quite infirm quite elderly it is a bad situation and just the best for everyone really the soonest that you know

what's really interesting here if i've got alexander and now we have the association agreement where the country is going to go quite possibly into a depression in its poor already i mean this is why push and go has to get something done something on his name because now the real pain economic pain and economics affects everyone and this is going to start starting immediately and the winter is coming we have no gas contract russia has no gas contract with ukraine i mean the worst of it's ahead of us. i have i have absolutely no idea how and you know president bush and his people were thinking you know how this will work out when they sign this agreement i know that so that our contract to fulfill that we're on the step but you know technically on the gun problem they're going to do this when this impact of that the agreement kicks in seriously and you know the one when we were talking about before even before the agreement was signed i

made the point to some of the ukrainian officials that there'd be an union this looked in the good shape itself you have so i said you know what are you doing why are you trying to get into it when it's a sinking ship and yet they don't understand that you know because the big place apart from germany for example that will bankrupt britain is bankrupt technically france is bankrupt the thing is bankrupt and yet they're going in and there is no money on the table has no money on the line on the table absolutely now i can't understand how well but i shouldn't because people are sitting there and planning that you know economic strategy ok so how is of going to war alexander i wonder what i want to go to john right now i found out in the last few hours the only thing ukraine is going to be allowed to export to the european union are eggs really that's it that's it on both well i believe on. their whole industry is going

to be completely wiped out i mean if they can't trade with russia that said they're finished i mean there are there are industrial sectors going to be gone their military industrial sector is going to be gone their agricultural sector is finished. i don't see you mentioned they're all bankrupt well in ukraine they're going to have a lot of free cheap resources that's the way i'm reading it i mean they've got that four point two billion or what is it of gas that's already russian gas that they're holding there and i guess what are they going to do so. all that or get that for free or would. i go back to you in line i think one of the interesting things and i think it's not commented on and nuffin media is that the way things are going with this european association agreement and the south stream pipeline russia can replace its factories it'll be a little painful but will have new factories not soviet era factories will have new ones in russia they won't have to worry about what i'm getting at is that russia has a long term view now of course there's going to be suffering particularly for the

people in the east but it's just not worth it it's not worth it if the european union and the americans want ukraine take it it isn't going to bend my there's a difference between economic integration and actually joining the e.u. they're not doing you any time soon i mean there's this deep and meaningful free trade that's all going to be off it all for the foreseeable there will be when it is they will be in the west they will be heavy loses there in the east and internal discussion in ukraine's know it how it is how winners from korea trade are going to compensate losers and you can have to have that conversation alexander do you want to jump in there well i think that basically the problem is that for ukraine is that there is no threat that you're on the table the european union is offering them nothing america is offering them nothing and this was basically an opportunist step by signing that the agreement and we now can understand by the way why victor

unocal which didn't go for that because i thought i suspect he's people told him that this is a trap this is a swamp we're going to go in and work and that we will never get out of it so in this respect it's very difficult to understand the lord or the people and if if if we don't assume that these people they're not planning to stay long that they have plenty probably to move out and you know base their future somewhere else then it works out for them but for the long term. future of the country there you know i don't understand how it's going to work and i suspect nobody on the stand i do i have and i got a theorist i got a theory i got a theory ok john here's my theory ok ok he will like victoria nuland don't want vladimir putin helping out in syria you know the chemical weapons thing people like victoria nuland doesn't want a country like russia to be involved in iran's nuclear program and pledged weapons which they don't want russia's help that's what the problem is this is payback and

they want to create a problem on a huge problem on russia's border and blame all of it on russia and you know by the way make the russians pay for it on top of it that's what it works out to exactly i don't know that i can add to what you said i mean. i think you would you pretty much got it ok you who want to do you want to jump in there you wanted well well i think you know pete this is another important point you know when you create tension right on the border. over russia you do course russia a lot of problems let's face it and i think this was you know on the political and then the minute to a level that i think that's what they wanted to achieve and i think that they caused russia problems that you know let us a little waste about that's true the terrorist president putin must be a warrior you know if you have tension like that on your board right basically with your door you all boarded the boat this especially this can spill into russia so

that they have achieved you know hitting ability i think personally that america is creating instability all across the look what's happening on call in kong you know they've sent a signal to china we can do things that will hurt you and now we have this huge massive demonstration demanding democracy and for some unknown reason all of a sudden just because you know america is playing its games look at the me the least look at everywhere everywhere we're seeing tension and it sometimes makes no sense at all you know numb so i thought i'd let you know i want to go back to you crying there particular i'll go back to you were in eastern ukraine. and one of the reasons why i wanted you on this program because you have personal experience there . do they swung to stay in ukraine in a federated way or the longer this goes on the more they want to be completely separate and ergo join russia which the russians are not keen on really. depends on who you talk to you would talk to and you would have

a lot of people even if they see themselves within ukraine as a country who will see themselves as meaningfully russian but they don't want to live in the state of russia they're probably happy to live in the state they live in but at the same time their psyche pained when they see attacks on the sea and most of or the phrase that it's often used but which in which peter this this causes them some some some angsty even though they see themselves within ukraine as a project the separatists themselves. you talk to them a lot of them will tell you that the beginning they would have been reasonably happy with the federal solution. and then they think the moment for that's passed. now there that they could hold out for either independence what's interesting is that a lot of them actually are taking their preferred solution is independence and they see themselves in a sort of switzerland yeah who would trade you know with the. union but they're not there to be on their own. and you know if they're willing to concede that

a month ago the federal solution would be on the table you come to think maybe they could be tempted back to it ok and then of course you could have a lot of ukrainians because you see them this all is a bit silly. and the people instruments who just want fighting to stop yeah i think you know all of this is unfortunately you know if we look at a year back all of this is so because it never should have happened in the first place it was intentionally done alexander what you know what about the self-determination of these people on the ground because it really stuck between a rock and a hard place because russia is not going to intervene unless there was some gross gross ethnic cleansing which i don't think you know if they're just killing people one of the time here with their shelling but you know what about their self-determination what's going to happen to them well i think you know it's a situation at the moment because of the regime and if it's not really sure where you and your willingness to talk to the people in least until there is some willingness to talk. and you know sort of discuss the situation then i don't think

anything can couple westfeldt by the way have the so-called unity government right they called it ula to government when they create the off the cool and it's still people from the you know from the west who have no interest in talking to the east and pot and basically no interest in helping the east the cold so until this this balance actually by the way will be on the balance here gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks and i guess in london and in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.k. see you next time and remember prosper. you know the thing.

about seven years old it's one of the largest ten cities on the east coast of america and said got about one hundred people here just because of economics the cost of housing in this area especially is very high i believe as an american we have a right. to camp out or to possess public land until something is created that's my house you see that there are limits and them to well we spend ten to now the rest of it if we hadn't done that we wouldn't have been home i want you to understand we don't just how you know people the density we know anybody who needs help so tell your friend to just give us more take your mortgage i'm staying on never going to get a sense of the internet in one fell swoop got a place to live once on monday i'll be out here with my dog.

this is what we do we kill people and break things. we can see something if simple as people playing a soccer game you can see individual players and if you see the ball. i can almost see his facial expression you can see his mouth open and crying out. maybe cursed us or maybe he asked. for forgiveness for. there must be near certainty that no civilians will be killed or in. numbers so the people in kiev's independence square were not terrorists and the people of them boss they are the terrorists also just because we don't agree with what kiev is trying to impose on us and stand by our conviction of

a civilian input on the nose would. use a secret laboratory to mccurry was able to build a new its most sophisticated robot which all unfortunately doesn't give a dollar amount anything tim's mission to teach music creation why it should care about humans and world this is why you should care only on the dog call. put it on your show comment watch as the polish face i describe you.

pleasure to have you with us here on seeds today i'm real researcher. more residential areas under fire in east ukraine where people say they're living in fear of shelling even though president poroshenko promised not to endanger civilians. ukraine's forced to tap into long term gas storage facilities after being cut off by russia for its human unpaid bills energy chief warning europe may be affected. back to iraq u.s. a top general says the country may actually launch an assault on isis insurgents while saudi arabia sending thirty thousand troops to their border sparking fears of an armed invasion.