possess public land until something is created that's my house you see back there live it sent them to well at least. if we had done we wouldn't have been home i want to go we don't just you know people with anybody. just. a mistake on never going to the internet with one fell swoop got a place to live once on monday i'll be out here. hello and welcome me props for all things are considered i'm peter lavelle indecision in

ukraine while it appears there is a commitment to a multilateral ceasefire in the country fighting continues again talks the talk of peace which forces pursue their assault in the east. and control. to cross-talk the crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest alexander in the cross if in london he is a political commentator and a former kremlin adviser also in london we have product belton he is a journalist who's been covering east ukraine for the b.b.c. and the independent and in moscow we cross it john roberts he is a writer presenter and journalist for the voice of russia gentlemen crosstalk roles in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want a particular about a month ago you wrote an article titled what a shanghai was likely to fail as ukraine's new president you still agree with i wouldn't want to be in his shoes he probably wishes he was still. setting chocolate he's going to wow. the deck stacked against him you know he does was probably

actually to be an inappropriate thing that he does pretty seated in an effin diesel stand he's going to come online the gas price going to have to give up the ins prediction that the economy is not going to grew very fast so it will be a very rocky twelve months this is probably actually is going to be as good as it gets for an interesting way alexander cease fire no cease fire cease fire no cease fire we have the berlin talks and then we have the state department saying go go go i mean what's going on here the americans are not saying the same thing as the europeans that's for sure well think of the whole crisis have because demonstrate that. america has a separate agenda from europe if this trying to basically drive away between the russians europe if this failing a lot of the statements coming from europe should be taken with a pinch of salt because you know americans expect some of the leaders to say some

tough things trust me for example that britain david cameron and his government are not very keen on spoiling relations with russia the companies like b.p. like shell that pressing problem the government saying are you you know are you saying guys what are you doing we have multi-billion dollar contracts that are in russia and you are talking about you know the rest extensions and song as regards president poroshenko i think he did his job already i think he was elected to sign that deal with the e.u. that's it done but throw now can do whatever he wants he can you know basically sit and just listen to the or this coming from washington so i mean what's there now and maybe what i think it's a little bit more complicated than that john if i can go to you here in moscow you know he has right sector looking at him to you know the mog obviously and sitting there in in the my don they're keeping a close eye on him he's got to do something or he's going to lose their support.

that's absolutely right i don't envy petro poroshenko i don't support him either but he's almost in an impossible situation i agree his i think his main task was signing that new agreement he's done that he also has to keep himself out of some international tribunal or facing a war crimes charges so he has to try to play both sides of the fence if you listen carefully to his speech as though there were some very coded language for the right sector in there so it's really down for that he's following. something other than their agenda in my opinion how do you think that train has left the station because if you look at some of the video coming out of east ukraine i mean shelling of villages i mean these people were no threat to anyone it is quite dreadful looking at these pictures here it's going to be very i mean what if they close it he was going to go to the east the first thing he would do and he did he went west ok had a nice photo ops with people but i think the train has left the station i'm really

worried about that i don't want to see any kind of military intervention from russia i mean that very very clear it would be a terrible terrible mistake but the slaughter continues and can i say something on that not let me go but it's all the france let's go to public go ahead. now that i've been in the east for the last month since i was in these election day. what's amazing is that both the d.n.i. and kiev are saying that they're going to talk even they agreed on when state to carry on talking in the me to try that before not on saturday it looks like pushing it was trying to achieve a quick cheek advantage on the ground just drink them him at the table he's going to the forces on the ground for one now he's got between forty thousand and sixty thousand forces deployed in the east in march there were probably six thousand battle ready troops in ukraine that's that's that's that's a massive escalation terms of pete's on the ground these chaps are letting to fight as they grew because the forces we don't typically could. states took over and

there's been some some pretty key personnel changes because galatea just came in as minister of defense there's also been this this famed crowdsourcing of kits and even the people's drones. both sides have got some pretty hefty preconditions even though they've been saying that they're willing to talk to the rebels having to lay down their arms that you can force them to withdraw entirely from the east but i mean i heard from a couple of leading separatists in the administration building went and talked to them over the last couple of weeks that they don't think they could hang on for more than a month or two so i think both sides know that there's going to be there's going to be some sort of political economy i'm even if both of them say the you know the there wouldn't be. i think that the one thing the key of could maybe be used to leaned on is. you know he said in his is an alteration

speech that evolution was crimea to he is quite convinced that any forward devolved government would basically be taken over quite quickly by people to be obstructionist and quite strongly program and. it's not completely clear to me that's the case and one of the interesting things i mean the important thing about the separatists d.n.r. is they're articulating sense of grievances that are pretty widespread in the east so even after arms are laid down i think at that point you've got such a massive difference three years a very of the mind on the national debt of undone by us ok john we have to be stitched together somehow somehow john jump in go ahead. i just i want to protest about the label separatists but it's ok because i just wonder underline the fact that i mean that the people who are being bombed they didn't do anything other than disagree to be ruled by a i'm sorry it's a nazi fascist who. legally grab power and they're being punished

for disagreeing with that as far as military operations i think it's about time there was some sort of international at least a peacekeeping operation i don't know how russia would be able to play a role there is they've already been labeled the aggressor but really the civilian population needs absolutely needs to be protected there it's i think that's imperative and i still don't understand why the european union is just sitting on their hands ok i don't i don't think they are sitting on their hands alexander let's let the it isn't that who we got alexander here alexander you know this is this is the problem here because you know one of the things that really bothers me with western main stream coverage of this is that all of the diplomacy that russia has been pushing behind the scenes in front of the scenes and we had mr lavrov and berlin talking to anyone that would listen to him to bring peace to this country and russia continues to push diplomacy you know i think the problem is this we

always talking about what key if and put a president finking on saying we're doing but unfortunately it's not but mr prussian coup is deciding but it's the washington people who decide what he's going to say and what he's going to do and in my personal opinion america is at the moment not interested in a new peace in eastern ukraine at all and there's a reason for it and the reason being that this is a grab we are witnessing and grap by american companies now that talking a lot about you know democracy the future of ukraine in your op. the wonderful future in reality behind the scenes they are taking over ukrainian assets they have already taken all the spy ply which runs from russia to our desk that's the chemical. chemicals going there to address it to a future and to price which i think is already being bored by the american company

so what they're doing is that taking a cruise a fool industry chemical industry in ukraine they don't need peace in washington to be established in ukraine they will do anything to stop a new negotiations that is why you people pointed out you know russia is doing its utmost i don't even know what else can put in and lavrov say i will do that can convince the americans to stop doing something but it won't work it won't work this is an assett grab this is a typical aggression ok if i go back to you in london and i agree on says some level it's an answer grab it if the country becomes a failed state that it's worth nothing. yes i i think you are right on this i think that a program that's a couple of days ago. no matter what exactly does the putin once said thing that he doesn't alter ones is is a completely destabilized ukraine he doesn't want it to fall to pieces on the

border. this is not in any sense in his interests. and i do you think that there will be a massive step back the precipice reasonably soon in terms of that a russian economy is stopped growing actually the i.m.f. just said because of the level to sanctions new body. inside or the russian side wants it to escalate to this actions. do you think we will start to see some political winding down of this you know all the let me let me finish let me just want to go to johnny of are we go to the break here i mean i guess i think that we missed the point of the political players in kiev we have some really radical people on the ground the push angle has to be very very worried about they want results and i worry that we're going to get to my down three i think that's quite possible as far as the failed state i don't think they really care i mean if you look at the people in libya if you look at what they did to iraq i mean and we have they can just buy oil from the bandits that are running around in the and there are

islamic terrorists and what i want to say about the media coverage because i've had people coming from directly from down boss i've done several interviews i've been in contact with a lot of people and what i've heard is that our coverage artie's coverage which is the only probably normal coverage in the world of all theirs is actually not showing how she's really really bad it is it's worse than what i thought i john i like what you say but we got to go to a short break after lunch or press we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with our.

war is probably the most complex and difficult to. apply. to the phenomenon of friendly fire probably extends back to the invention of gunpowder. kill a bunch of people you know don't know if they're on the premises there are a us people. reading. this some shoots my brother in the leg not intentional because of it because it was night times four in the morning even the best given the best soldiers. are going to make mistakes this is this whole idea of brotherhood and author and that and camaraderie in this sense it was in this context that has absolutely no place.

right on the scene. first street. and i think pictures. on our reporters twitter. and instagram. to be in the know. on. this is what we'd. you kill people and break things so we can see something if simple as people playing soccer games you can see individual players and if you see the ball. you can only see his facial expression and you'll see is

a mouth open and crying out. maybe cursed us or maybe he asked. for forgiveness for house. there must be near certainty that no civilians will be killed or injured.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered to remind you we're discussing the recent developments of the ukraine crisis. ok patrick i go back to you in london and some of the things you said earlier in the program time really quite interesting because the way things are going this this anti-terrorist operation they're not gaining any results or killing people but they're not getting any political results and it's dividing the country more and more and i would surmise that pretty soon they're going to feel like they're occupied by care of and that's something that is untenable that will keep the country very divided and we could even see something like a guerrilla war start which russia does not need on its border go ahead. in many respects i actually agree with a lot of that i mean the ukrainian forces already being seen in a lot of the east. badly this this is tearing you create

a part of it i mean you're starting. what's amazing is senior separatists have told me a coffee last couple of weeks at the beginning of my dorm the support they sought is antek as a crusade against corruption you know they can sign on with a lot of the things that people are saying there in kiev and look where it's gotten i mean if you've got a national here to that's come out of might on the doesn't speak at all to the east doesn't gauge them it doesn't do anything for them doesn't really work them in and then in the east there are more maybe than at any point the last decade starting to see themselves as sammy has been collected is not understood some one done boss said to me the other day you know patti they're talking about building a wall to keep us while things are what is this what is this all about and how to explain the game of thrones to. vance i mean a city of a hundred twenty thousand people has no electricity really somewhere around thirty to forty thousand people a flared muesli cotton club is the way to go to course there in at the moment i

mean the people who are left to generally be quite infirm quite old really it is a bad situation and just the best for everyone really the soonest that you know what's really interesting here if i've got alexander and now we have the association agreement where the country is going to go quite possibly into a depression in its poor already i mean this is why push and go has to get something done something on his name because now the real pain economic pain and economics affects everyone and this is going to start starting immediately and the winter is coming we have no gas contract russia has no gas contract with ukraine i mean the worst of it's ahead of us. i have i have absolutely no idea how and you know president bush and his people were thinking you know how this will work out when they signed this agreement i know that had a sort of a contract to fulfil that we're on the step but you know technically on the ground

color they're going to do this when this impact of that the agreement kicks in seriously and you know the one when we were talking about before even before the agreement was signed i made the point to some of the ukrainian officials that if there be an union this look in the in the good shape itself so i said you know what are you doing why are you trying to get into it when it's a sinking ship and yet they don't understand that you know because the big place apart from germany for example that will bankrupt britain is bankrupt technically france is bankrupt that is bankrupt and yet they're going in and there is no money on the table has no money on the line on the table absolutely not i can't understand how well but i shouldn't because people are sitting there and claiming that you know economics test that you ok so how is it go the word alexander and i will know what i want to go to john right now i found out in the last few hours the

only thing ukraine is going to be allowed to export to the european union are eggs really that's it that's it on both well i believe on. their whole industry is going to be completely wiped out i mean if they can't trade with russia that said they're finished i mean there are there are industrial sectors going to be gone their military industrial sector is going to be gone their agricultural sector is finished. i don't see you mentioned they're all bankrupt well in ukraine they're going to have a lot of free cheap resources that's the way i'm reading it i mean they got that four point two billion or what is it of gas that's already russian gas that they're holding there and i guess what are they going to do so. all that or get that for free or what. i go back to you in london i think one of the interesting things and i think it's not commented on and nuffin media is that the way things are going with this european association agreement and the south stream pipeline russia can

replace its factories it'll be a little painful but will have new factories not soviet era factories will have new ones in russia they won't have to worry about what i'm getting at is that russia has a long term view now of course there's going to be suffering particularly for the people in the east but it's just not worth it it's not worth it if the european union and the americans want ukraine take it. to the band mind there's a difference between economic integration and actually joining the e.u. they're not doing you any time soon i mean there's this deep and meaningful free trade that's all going to be off it all for the foreseeable there will be weight is they will be in the west they will be heavy loses there in the east and internal discussion in ukraine's all in how it is is how winners from korea trade are going to compensate losers and you can have to have that conversation alexander do you want to jump in there well i think that basically the problem is that for ukraine is that there is no threat that you're on the table the european union is offering

them nothing america is offering them nothing and this was basically an opportunist step by signing that the agreement and we now can understand by the way why victor unocal which didn't go for that because i think i suspect he's people told him that this is a trap this is a swamp we're going to go in and work and that we will never get out of it so in this respect it's very difficult to understand the lord or the people and if if if we don't assume that these people they're not planning to stay long that they're playing probably to move out and you know base their future somewhere else then it works out for them but for the long term. future of the country there you know i don't understand how it's going to work and i suspect nobody on the stand i do i have and i got a theorist i got to see that i've got a theory ok john here's my theory ok ok he will like victoria nuland don't want

vladimir putin helping out in syria you know the chemical weapons and people like victoria nuland doesn't want a country like russia to be involved in iran's nuclear program and pledged weapons which they don't want russia's help that's what the problem is this is payback and they want to create a problem on a huge problem on russia's border and blame all of it on russia and you know by the way make the russians pay for it on top of it that's what it works out to exactly i don't know that i can add to what you said i mean. you know i think you would you pretty much got it ok you who want to do you want to jump in there you wanted well well i think you know pete this is another important point you know when you create tension right on the border. over russia you do course russia a lot of problems let's face it and i think this was you know on the political and then the military is a level that i think that's what they wanted to achieve and i think that they

caused russia problems that you know let so little waste about that's true the terrorist president putin must be a warrior you know if you have tension like that on your board right basically with your door you all boarded the boat to send specialists can spill into russia so that they have achieved you know hitting ability i think personally that america is creating instability all across the uk look what's happening on call in kong you know they've sent a signal to china we can do things that will hurt you and now we have this huge massive demonstration demanding democracy and for some unknown reason all of a sudden just because you know america is playing its games look at the me the least look at everywhere everywhere we're seeing tension and it sometimes makes no sense of told you know not so i thought i don't like it i want to go back to you cry in their public i'll go back to you were in eastern ukraine. and one of the reasons why i wanted you on this program because your personal experience there. did they swung to stay in ukraine in

a federated way or the longer this goes on the more they want to be completely separate and ergo join russia which the russians are not keen on really. depends on who you talk to you would talk to and you would have a lot of people even if they see themselves within ukraine as a country who will see themselves as meaningfully russian but they don't want to live in the state of russia they're probably happy to live in the state they live in this but at the same time their psyche pained when they see attacks on the sea and most of or the phrase that it's often used but which in which peter this this causes them some some some angsty even though they see themselves within ukraine as a project the separatists themselves. you talk to them a lot of them will tell you that the beginning they would have been reasonably happy with the federal solution. and then they think the moment for that's passed. now there they could hold out for either independence what's interesting is that

a lot of them actually are saying their preferred solution is independence and they see themselves in a sort of switzerland yeah who would trade you know with your asian. union but they learn to be on their own. and you know if they're willing to concede that a month ago the federal solution would be on the table you kind of think maybe they could be tempted back to it ok and then of course you'd have a lot of ukrainians because you see them this all is a bit silly. and the people instruments who just want fighting to stop yeah i think you know all of this is unfortunately a no if we look at a year back all of this is so weak as it never should have happened in the first place it was intentionally done our xander what it was you know what about the self-determination of these people on the ground because it really stuck between a rock and a hard place because russia is not going to intervene unless there was some gross gross ethnic cleansing which i don't think you know if they're just killing people one of the time here with their shelling but you know what about their self-determination what's going to happen to them well i think you know it's

a situation at the moment because of the regime and if it's not really sure where you and your willingness to talk to the people in least until there is some willingness to talk. and you know sort of discuss the situation then i don't think anything can couple westville by the way of the so-called unity government right they called it unity government when they created the off to look cool and it's still people from the you know from the west who have no interest in talking to the east than pot and and basically no interest in helping the u.s. the goal so until this this balance actually by the way would be in the balance here gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks and i guess in london and in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our d.c. you next time and remember. to name the things you want.

to try to take. people to. your. teaching everything to. me. all i know what. my life like. let's say. this case is. sometimes for nothing. this. is

not just the story can still be just if you see the state take the t.v. with my feet. it was. about seven years old it's one of the largest ten cities on the east coast of america and it's got about one hundred people here just because of economics the cost of housing in this area especially is very high and i believe as an american we have a right. to say about her composer s. public land until something is created that's my house you see back there live it sent them to well at least then spend the. rest. if we hadn't done that we wouldn't have been home i want you to understand we don't just how do you know people a tent city we don't know anybody that needs help so tell your friend to just give

us more take care of them or a mistake on never going to city and today in one thousand got a place to live once on monday i'll be out here with my dog. your friend posts a photo from a vacation you can't afford college it's different. the boss repeats the same old joke of course you like. the ex-girlfriend still tends to rejection poetry keep tabs nora's. we post only what really matters at r.t. to your facebook news feed. so we need to. either see bush and secure. a party visible. issues that no one is there with

the guests that you deserve answers from. politics. this is arts international this hour more residential areas come under fire in east ukraine where people say they're living in culture fear of shelling even though the president promised not to endanger civilians. the time a classified document is leaked in the u.s. apparently a road map for a deadly assault on the rest of east east of ukraine if peace negotiations with the self-proclaimed republics fail we've got a lot coming up. also. elsewhere here israeli police fired tear gas on palestinian protesters venting their anger at what they say was a revenge killing of a teenager this thousand joined his fear.