placed with a jihadi summer. welcome to sophie and go on sophie shevardnadze general najib. served his nation his whole adult life first in the military under saddam hussein and then as a mayor of the town of tal afar after the u.s. invasion his efforts to combat militant extremism by working around sectarian divides managed to bring peace to the city by now that it's controlled far its former mayor follows that spate closely and with concern he's here with us today to explain what exactly is going on in iraq today. as isis makes like the first advances in iraq the nation's army's. showing the

world how feeble the country is three years after u.s. troops left its soil what's the cause of its weakness what will it take to contain the wave of terror and can you come out of this as a united nation. najim a bad algebra or e x. mayor of iraqi town of tal afar which is now in isis hands you are now based in america and you are made a scholar it's great to have you on our show today now tell us far has been overtaken by isis you were the city's mayor i know and i know that you keep in touch with your colleagues there so what's going on right now how is to sit in managing under. for witness the same thing. that frankly speaking. to local security forces was pretty. they didn't feel like fighting at all their commanders about. and into soldiers locals told me. had left

his position in a secure historic fortress on the top of a high hill and moved to the airport which is an open unprotected area their commanders were involved in corruption and were only interested in raising money they were not ready for a war the army has no national spirit it was built on the base is a religion which is wrong because religion divides. the only thing that mattered to them was being. so the army lost its commanders and morale failed in the battle against several hundred. and fighters general before we talk about why the army playing in masses i want to ask a couple of questions about itself this success since like a complete surprise to the public how did they gain so much support so suddenly. fortunately the iraqi government took the wrong course and building

a relationship with its people in fact it split them into first rate and second rate citizens for instance decisions by paul bremer is occupational authority like destroying the baath party dismissing the iraqi army and shutting down iraqi public institutions were wrong the way the government implemented all that was very harmful. to annihilate the party was taken as an order to annihilate sonic's people in western parts of bend and then forgotten or their country did nothing for them and did not protect their rights so they took to the streets the protests continued for over a year the iraqi government paid no attention to them it's it was too overwhelmed with its military potential too busy equipping and training the army but it overlooked the fact that these masses could become infuriated. in which case no military force would stop. the authorities do it with those demonstrations strongly

over sixty people were killed in a house as well as in fallujah and other cities soldiers storming the square's another mahdi became the final straw sunni it's turned into a movement generating mechanism ready to fight against the government i believe it was your stories who pushed to the edge so they started looking to cooperate with whatever group there was beat isis troops or others ok but now your prime minister saying that saudi arabia funding. saying is true i mean what's in it for riyadh saudi arabia need a taliban style extremist state on its northern border do you think it's true that saudis are financing the i s's. i do not think the saudi government finances ice's or any other terrorist organizations. certain individuals organizations based in saudi arabia or in the other gulf countries may

be involved in. saudi arabia just like other countries in the region has suffered from terrorism which prompted its government regulations to criminalize any connections to such organizations it is true that saudi arabia and iran are in a religious confrontation or rather a fight for leadership but i believe that there is no link between these extremists and the saudi government oh as i've already said they might be funded by individuals who have nothing to do with the government. ok now earlier on you mentioned that division that there are divisions that political parties create within the iraqi army tell me are those divisions to blame for the total breakdown of the military. i think that there is more to the crisis in iraq than just armed conflict there are also the political differences the confrontation between various

political parties and groups to squabble over privileges and high offices in the government all of this has made security vulnerable in our country at the large scale corruption among the ruling parties which has to degree favorable conditions for terrorism to develop. political confrontation and corruption are both key factors that affect the military. remember also to criminal cases about deals to buy and sell faulty weapons and equipment which involved iraqi politicians in the military as well there's been more than one story like that the media has covered them extensively. now like we've seen the army fleeing in masses putting die. in arms but we see the kurds that they're actually the ones that are capable of repelling gases those in syria and in iraq and why is that the iraqi army isn't capable of doing that either through. the iraqi military has lost its patriotic

feeling of this is the key reason an army without ideology can never be a strong one and looks as if it were made up of mercenaries they do not fight for an idea for a goal for their homeland when iraq was a war with iran a script would get. to his training was over he would go to the front line aware that with a ninety percent probability of he'd be killed now the situation has taken a u. turn as far as i know servicemen receive calls from their parents who tell them to not fight for these dirty politicians. kurdish fighters are an entirely different story they have a dream they know they're fighting for their homeland they want to build a state of their own their aspirations are highly ambitious they have faith and

patriotic feeling very different from the regular army in iraq. this morning. now so far the ass is a parading in predominantly sunni areas of iraq while their success this stalled once they move into shia majority territory. it's not only isis that is responsible for what's happening in the sunni regions it's tribes retired officers and bar fests. this must be more prominent in soudan actually there are also people who sympathize with former officers who feel offended because they were dismissed and not given what they were entitled to. some time ago the government conducted a number of operations in a city. something that the government called a preemptive strike designed to curb any possible insurgency. reports from karbala skirmishes between the army and the guards of shia cleric. several people will note

this situation in the south is also tense. there might be the so-called dormant cells in the sunni areas which can be exploited by the rebels in groups be isis or others they could exploit them whenever they want. us. to think acis have any chance of taking over iraq. i don't think so. isis is not that strong but at least the way we see it that isis acts like a shock force they can capture territory and then hand it over to other groups but take mosul for example this is no longer there he took the city and handed it over to the local tribes to its supporters and some former officers who backed him. according to the dot i have biases accounts for no more than five percent of the

total force active in a sunni. so there are other groups that cooperate with them. i don't think isis has the capacity to take control of the whole of iraq. want to talk a bit about the leader. baghdadi now he was a u.s. prison there but that he was set free for good behavior saying that he was not a threat anymore what do you think is that a blunder for of the intelligence. absolutely . we work with the americans while they were still here. these prisons are hotbeds of terrorism we know that prisoners were freed to meet and talk among them were people who had nothing to do with terrorism but once they were put in in any of those jails. or people with a certain ideology they were brainwashed and left the prison with

a completely different. and then they joined al qaeda and similar networks. there were many innocent people locked up in jails and. because they were unjustly convicted because they were down jordan they easily accepted the ideas spread by extremists. brainwashed. those channels was come book. there were so many moderate people who ended up being extremists after leaving this jail as. all right general we are going to take a short break right now we'll be back with no bad algebra a former mayor of the iraqi town of tal afar to talk about what's next for the embattled country stay with us.

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or back with the g m a bad algebra with former mayor of the iraqi town of tal afar made a scholar base in america welcome back to the show now i read somewhere that you've said the u.s. has wrecked your country but you also believe that it is the united states that can save it well honestly we all remember what happened the last time u.s. intervened iraq so is that really wise. well as i have already mentioned the united states has effectively admitted that the invasion of iraq was a major mistake. the split imposed on the iraqi public has been primarily influenced by the us ambassador paul bremmer. iraq never used to be like this before two thousand and three shiites didn't get killed for being shiites and likewise sunnis and kurds didn't get killed for being what they are not anywhere in iraq people didn't get killed for what their passport said. i

believe the americans have admitted they had made some fatal mistakes by banning the baath party disbanding the army dismissing government institutions and forming the iraqi governing council i think that the united states as the world's greatest power certain moral commitments. along with the responsibility for the ongoing bloodshed. they should rebuild what they have previously destroyed in iraq in collaboration with the international community. hope iraq will split into three smaller weaker states in such an event we would witness an eruption of ferocious sic tyrian an ethnic violence with arabs kurds turkmen and all other iraqi communities being at each other's throats. that is why i believe the us should not distance itself from what's going on in iraq instead it should collaborate with the

un security council with the regional powers and with the rest of the world to assist in rebuilding iraq and i don't just mean rebuilding infrastructure. but do you feel general i'm sorry but do you feel like the americans know what they're doing like even ten years on because i know that obama's administration is calling now for a new leadership in iraq that's number one request. but it also proves the call for fresh leadership in egypt in libya in syria it's not really working out in those countries either do you feel like the white house knows what it's doing to feel like it knows to peculiarities of iraqi people and iraq in general. well in my opinion america's military might and its foreign policy exist separately from one another. the us is a formidable military power but sadly it's weak foreign policy wise that is why i'm

not inclined to suspect the obama administration pursuing some secret plan directed against iraq had warned the public about iraq's security forces back in two thousand and nine predicting exactly what we are seeing today many people didn't agree with me then saying the new iraqi military are normally of the people and for the people and therefore there is strong will withstand anything. but at the end of the day what has happened was exactly what i had warned against that is why i think u.s. foreign policy is weak as it fails to focus on the right issues. so do you think it could make things worse in iraq. we have practically hit rock bottom where the situation is critical a u.n. report alleges more than five thousand people were killed. in iraq this month alone

the purpose the people of baghdad fear attacks from isis. and insurgent groups. are afraid and so are shiites. province isis fighters are engaging government troops and targeting locals people are dying there over a million refugees out of mosul. and by the doctor. they just can't get much worse and that there is fighting as we speak the situation in iraq is very difficult and we're looking at a very grim future unless politicians manage to come up with a government that observes and pursues the interests of each and every iraqi. for now when you were mayor you tried to build a system in tal afar that would ignore after the sectarian lines and emphasize civil duty why did you fail in the early. i didn't

fail. yet thank god i succeeded and my success in tal afar was that i help people remember that they are iraqi i help people forget about their religious or ethnic differences and concentrate only on being iraqi nationals . but it ended up a very different. unfortunately one style or far recovered and became stale and prosperous the iraqi government made sure to remind people intel or for that i used to be a member and in general during saddam hussein's rule. unfortunately people always have their religious differences and when people were reminded of having them they stopped living in peace with each other this never happened while the americans were in there they would never have allowed something like this i lost my protection when the u.s.

forces started to withdraw and i received several orders to leave my post. later i learned that they were circles in the iraqi government. which would do anything they could to destroy me if i refused to resign. so that's the reason i stepped down. but i thank god that the people of color far stood by each other and protected each other despite everything that's happening there. that the local sunnis held the local shiites escape and didn't let isis kill any of them think god people still feel united work hard to create a feeling of national unity and the residents of tal afar remember that first and foremost they're citizens of iraq. you have to collaborate with americans while you are aware i mean right now european based in the united states but while you were mayor did you feel like you were collaborating with occupiers or was liberally liberators what's what does an average iraqi feel at that moment.

i'm completely open about this when i work with them i view them as occupiers not liberators i always said that i did my best to help my people recover from the massacre and devastation and i can't deny that i met some truly good and humane people in the u.s. army all the needed was advise and they asked for it. to prevent my town suffering the fate of fallujah to prevent the same things from happening there you know i told them in two thousand and nine not to use any heavy weapons or air force in their missions where i said i would resign. and they listen to me and never use those kinds of weapons everyone knows what i did for tal afar only the iraqi government unfortunately doesn't want to knowledge it just them. they know very well what i did. even the prime minister said it he commended my work in tal

afar but unfortunately there are many inside the government who want to build the revenge state in iraq with a policy of revenge and violence. well one cannot build a nation state with such a policy this explains the failure we're witnessing today. ok so because there are so. so much sectarian divide like you sat do you feel like iraq could be one country ever again or is it going to end up being divided into curt's sunni and shia states. the iraqi people have any separatist sentiments they have been forced onto us by the government and politicians because they're losers who can't keep their warm scene without backup from the sectarians so the problem lies with the politicians not with the people if the politicians

remain shortsighted and focus only on their vested interests then yes the country will fall apart. some of them listen to the voice of their conscience and feel compelled to help the people heal their wounds and create a government capable of delivering what the majority of the iraqi people want without any preferential treatment persecutions because everyone is equal in the face of the law the kurds the sunnis the shia and turkmen alike who is nationals of one state in that case yes iraq can rise up to be a nation state of unity and integrity again. there's also been examples of local sunni is rising up against islamist and driving them away to get out the sons of iraq movement i'm sure you know it was that the it wakening happening now. unfortunately the present government is trying to stay

afloat as soon as the americans left iraq the first thing they did was start a fight against the awakening movement they know as everyone else that neither the american nor iraqi military would have been able to win against al qaeda if not for the awakening for the sons of iraq but the first thing the government did was turn against this movement many of its leaders were thrown. jail and deprived of the salaries. for trying to stop them but the iraqi government did not hear the voice of reason and continued its war on the awakening of the sunnis. so when this catastrophe happened and the government realized the scale of the problem it was too late it happened after the fall of basra. many of those tribes that had participated in the awakening no turned against the iraqi government i'm not saying that they're necessarily fighting on the isis side we all remember him. who used

to be a part of the sons of iraq he's currently the leader of the anti-government tribes revolutionary council so the iraqi government had been acting wisely and therefore it reached a stalemate of course. it's about that is already cost health from the northern oil fields thousand shiite held areas rich in oil are affected as well will iraq have the money to keep on fighting. i don't think that isis will keep these areas for a long time i believe the iraqi government will regain its influence over the rocky territories the leaders of the sunni tribes have said many times that they're ready to push prices away their only condition would be the establishment of a national government treats all its citizens equally. but then they will be

willing to assist the military or even fight isis and kick the extremists out of these areas i don't think the extremist would stay. but but how will the government work without the oil money. government still has the money that we shouldn't forget that ninety five percent of production is located in basra which is controlled by the government in other regions the oil production is in significant. oil production was suspended in kirkuk due to an explosion on the export oil pipeline. but there is no oil production in other territories where the armed distilleries are taking place. ninety five percent of iraqi oil production is concentrated in basra my son. and west. are under government control and. carol thank you so much for this wonderful interest thanks for explaining us what's going on in iraq we're talking

tonight jim bad former mayor of the iraqi town of tal afar is our base in america and made east scholar their great talking to were talking about what's going on inside iraq well as his would ever ever take over the iraq and what's in store for iraq that's it for this edition of. time. your friend post a photo from a vacation you can't afford college it's different. the boss repeats the same old joke of course you like. your ex-girlfriend still tends to

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mortar shells target residential areas of eastern ukraine not have already suffered months of attacks the spike government promises that cities and villages would no longer be hit. and they came right behind me and. i mean they punched me in the face and went on content on our team meets a palestinian teen who was beaten by police protests against alleged abuse of power by israel spread. after the insects i mean they already have like the last face safe in their government that is revelation that america has been spying on its german allies leave the public wondering whether berlin will ever do anything to stop.