we had no idea our children were gay. i would actually just at night pray to god you know me normal. they said you're a homo you're a homo and from that day in first grade i swear my life changed forever i became like a ridicule i don't get stopped still to this day. well alabama and texas instruct school teachers to tell pupils young people that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle and also instructs them to say that homosexual sex in private is a crime in those states if the church was going to fire me that's what they had to do but i was going to do this way. this is what we do we kill people and break things. we can see something is simple

as people playing soccer games you can see individual players and you can see the ball. you can only see his facial expression you can see is now open and crying out. maybe cursed. or maybe he asked. for forgiveness for. there must be near certainty that no civilians will be killed or injured. this is about making the business survive. that. corporations don't love your parishioners told kate. corporations

have no feelings. for issues don't care about you or me corporations only care about. people come to untouched forest and leave. the sea. we're not going to quit we will not stop until it is what is more precious music more. hello and welcome the cross talk we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle in the crosshairs as israel appears to be preparing for still another assault on the gaza strip on this edition of crosstalk we asked how it got to this point and what

israel hopes to achieve. to cross-talk the assault on gaza i'm joined by my guest dan r.l. in washington he's a scholar in residence at the center for israel studies at the american university in new york we have norman finkelstein he's a political analyst and author and in amsterdam we crossed him wean rabani he is a senior fellow at the institute for palestine studies are gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want my very much encouraged norman if i can go to you first here how did we get to this point israel says it began when hamas kidnapped and murdered three israeli teens what's your take. i think if you don't mind i'd rather have that question because he's closer to the situation there ok due deference moeen go ahead. well the fact of the matter is that so far we still don't know who abducted and killed these three israeli use

israel immediately blame thomas and we also now know that these really government suppressed evidence had very early on that these three youths had been killed in order to claim that it was seeking to resolve a hostage situation and use that as a pretext to launch a military rampage throughout the west bank from from the far north to to the far south while hamas which usually almost immediately claims responsibilities claims are sponsibility for its actions and if anything exaggerates its activities has this time stated that it has no involvement in this incident so i think we need to look at what israel's broader objectives or in terms of using this incident as a pretext ok dan says it's a pretext you're it where your reply to that well first of all. was behind the

kidnapping of those three innocent youngsters who were brutally murdered by hamas operatives there's clear evidence point of fact that hamas is behind it and hamas is also driving a reckless policy at the moment israel is fighting a just war hamas initiated this conflict it started this conflict no other country in the world will tolerate can tolerate would tolerate such an attack on its cities towns civilians and israel's doing its utmost to protect its citizens ok norman would you like to reply to that just war. well first of all there is no evidence at this point that hamas was responsible even the u.s. state department which typically apologizes for any and every israeli action the u.s. state department was asked just two days ago in july nine do you have evidence that hamas is behind this and they said as of now we don't have evidence in any event

what's clear is that prime minister netanyahu then used to exploit this incident for political purposes and as i'm sure that is aware it was all over the israeli press and it was said candidly it was said with forthrightly that prime minister netanyahu was using the incident in order to destroy hamas and because he wanted to dismantle the unity government and this is fairly typical of the israeli government it's what the israeli political scientist needs called these relief of palestinian peace offensives in this case hamas form the unity government with the post and the units are ready on the terms that were put forth by the u.s. and the u.a.e. and the e.u. hamas accepted those terms and now netanyahu was cornered he was going to be forced to negotiate and so he does what israel historically has always done it tries to

nip these. palestinian peace offensives in the bud in this case by attacking hamas and hoping and praying to evoke some sort of reaction dan would you like to reply that. yes please hamas initiated this conflict it started with barrage of rockets and missiles on israeli towns and villages it is constantly it was offered by israel a calm for calm deal that rejected the known we didn't reject the offer of a one on an aggressive campaign and again no other country in the. the world would sit idly by and just watch a barrage of rockets into its territory and not respond with blood they were put in sit idly by if moscow and st petersburg would be under the threat of rockets and missiles are you sure you that he wouldn't and so other other leaders in the western world such as countering merkel holand obama. idly by and the leader of

israel the government of israel has a commitment to its people to protect them to insure safety and stability and that's what israel is doing at the moment is all carhart i want what i want to read i want norman and myleene to react to that movie would you like to react to that because all of the leaders in all of the countries that dan just mentioned i mean they don't have a they don't have under captivity under blockade under siege one point six million people go ahead maureen well. what then is presenting us is just a series of slogans and unsupported assertions this idea that. israel is offering a ceasefire in fact netanyahu is on record today and you can see. this with our always having that he has no interest in a ceasefire at that point well hamas has stated very clearly. that it is prepared

but that israel is unprepared to go so we can either base our positions in analysis and conclusions on on reality or we can just throw around meaningless slogans and unsupported assertions which isn't going to get us anywhere really ok norman jump in you want to jump in please do. well. dan says that israel is doing what any other country in the world would do first of all as he mentioned among the leaders who would do something he mentioned prime minister cameron david cameron in the u.k. cameron himself who is a great friend of israel a great supporter of israel he himself has described gaza as a prison camp and then you have to ask yourself what rights do people under occupation have to resist the occupation and here the international. the international law says number one and i hope down will respond specifically to

the point i'm making now international law says number one occupier has no right under international law to suppress the struggle for self-determination that is to say that israel has no right whatsoever if the palestinians are resisting the occupation israel has no right whatsoever whatsoever under international law to use force in order to suppress the palestinian struggle for self-determination the international law is a little bit more ambiguous on the rights of people on the occupation to use force but most scholars agree that they do have that right so as a broad general statement the palestinians are exercising their right under gaza's done under israeli occupation power gaza is not under occupation gaza since two thousand and five of course. in two thousand and five the only number to return to has not returned uprooted soldiers from gaza israel is

not in does that i'm very sorry to clarify that ok don't mean to say nothing against i want to clarify exactly they're moving in israel is not in gaza please react to that statement. gaza israel removed its military bases and its settlements from within the gaza strip that's true but i believe it's the position of even the international committee of the red cross that gaza remains occupied territory for among other reasons that israel still controls the airspace. the territorial waters most of the boundaries of the gaza strip israel has been imposing a punishing seven year blockade of the gaza strip and so it's quite possible and i presume there are other examples of as well that you can control and occupy a territory without being physically within it it's

a form of indirect rule if you will and perhaps even more importantly israel almost will launches these kinds of armed assaults. on the gaza strip as well which is you know and in that sense the legitimacy of israel's actions is also. very much open to question particularly in terms of international law as norman just explained. ok dan do you want to react to a security council yes because because the u.n. security council adopted the palmer commission report back in september twentieth levon which clearly states that the israeli naval blockade on gaza is legal and so . norman can argue from today till tomorrow that does not the case but the naval blockade of gaza by israel is legal and has been. recognized as such

by the united nations ok norman do you want to react to that. you know really a completely different issue i'm not going to get into the fact i'm i'm not going to get into the factual details now but for those who are interested in a small window. and she has said is for some two counts number one as he did correctly say the palmer commission only dealt with the naval blockade it did not deal with the land blockade number two the un security council never approved the palmer commission report. a report was commissioned by banking moon it had nothing to do with the other branches of the united nations but let's get to the bigger issue then says two things dan says first of all he says gaza is none not under occupation well i have a question for you then you mention prime minister cameron not me you mentioned prime minister david cameron so when david cameron referred to gaza as a prison who are the prison guards who is he referring to when you refer to god so

as a giant prison camp who are the guards of that person can israel senior sarsi learn to not just this was a sure you know is your arm didn't. places keeping them citizens doesn't reason it was your own tell your aunt your mind so then you're on television don't make a full of yourself before the whole world. i'm not taking a family so it certainly was the putting on this point gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on gaza stay with arkie. we've received.

there's a media leave us so we leave that maybe. by the same motions your. play your party there's a bill. for shoes that no one is asking with to get that you deserve answers from. politics only on our team. i'm happy martin the stories we cover here we're not going to hear any right other big story the extra headlines same time there's a reason they don't want to. point that. out now let's break the set. live right see. first street. and i think you're.

on our reporters. and still. be in the limo on. welcome back across the uk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle true mind you were discussing the israel palestine conflict. ok we now have to go back to you in amsterdam of the obama administration says quote it supports israel's right to defend itself against these rockets how do you reply to that. well i think very much along the lines the normand has already

replied which is that this is not about the right of a sovereign state to defend itself it's really about whether a state has the right to occupy colonize and dispossess another people i mean the idea that entire families are being blown to smithereens by the israeli air force in the gaza strip and the best that the obama administration can come up with is that israel has an absolute and unconditional right to self-defense which washington will defend uncritically. morally obscene is really the first in all the term that comes to mind here ok dan israel says it always is it being mindful of civilians when it attacks the garden it let's face it historically it happens quite often if every few years but the death toll the civilian death toll is always quite high so what kind of precision is that you know let me it's

a great question peter and i think that it's important to remember in the last three days more than four hundred fifty rockets and missiles were launched into israel into cities towns villages and thank god for that are in don't miss our system that was able to intercept them if not it would have been how do you answer the question that israel do and so israel during this time has to respond to this barrage of rockets and missiles and during this entire conflict first of all israel has been continuing humanitarian assistance into the gaza strip israel when it attacks it attacks surgically strikes at targets which are clearly connected to hamas tries to avoid targeting the civilian population actually warns civilians by dispersing leaflets by calling the homes by initiating announcements to stay away from harm from harm's way so israel is doing its utmost to. keep this attack on hamas and not on the citizens of gaza ok norman no matter how you cut it i mean if

you get a leaflet or not this is collective punishment this is collective punishment and that is illegal under international law norman go ahead. let's look at the picture on the israeli side how many people have been killed zero there hasn't even been a single reported injury from these so-called barrages of period of gaza there has been zero casualties and apparently so far no reported injuries as a matter of fact i haven't even read a report of a building being damaged yet in fact i face more danger this past weekend when i went to the coney island fireworks israelis have felt experience suffered from the gaza tax now let's look at the gaza side site so far

sixty nine people have been killed of those sixty nine sixty have been civilians so you have approximately a total ratio of seventy the see a row civilians sixty to zero does that sound like a war. no he says it's because of the higher you don't like when you first of all you have a neighbor who look and how he doesn't have a. right we don't have a city we don't have citizen the omnia viz his catering for human she has to become human shields for its operation and it's a launching rockets in the hands of some schools. and republican homes so there is when you when run fights. when innocent people are in harm's way unfortunately regretfully they sometimes are heard israel is doing its utmost not to allow this day and as the rights of the law alright alright alright alright because you know

they don't talk over each other go ahead norman and i want to go to move mean ok go ahead an army ten year ok one second there and you're reading from the wrong script you're reading from the script from the two thousand eight hundred nine war israel hasn't even the way children out of cincinnati are going to continue living in house with those that's that's your that's the old script now using the human shield script so let's go see how this is very common israel has freely admit is fresh over the us ok then. a fresh evidence sure you just pulled it out of your pocket let's look at the evidence it is you. show that it's targeting ok. israel has freely admitted its targeting the homes of hamas militants the civilian homes that's not legal under international law even if you give a warning even if you tap on the roof how would you like it than if i tapped on your roof or tower ballroom gave you of warning on the cell phone i'm going to blow

up you how he dismisses it as you need a mind to do i get it i did it wrong guy until you go through meaning in amsterdam . it's very interesting this time around because. go ahead go ahead ahead jumping. yeah i mean dan is again just presenting us with a series of meaningless slogans and on support a disservice ins including ones that is norman as pointed out even israel is not making and this idea that it's somehow legitimate to blow up someone's house simply because you've indicated you're going to do it and if the person's wife and children are murdered well that means they're human shields by the same logic has announced that it's going to seek to lob missiles at all of israel isn't that considered fair warning considering that virtually every israeli family has

a member who serves in the israeli military i mean you know the civilian noncombatants are either legitimate or illegitimate targets but to take a tribal approach to this which which is to say that it's legitimate to murder palestinian civilians but it's illegitimate for israeli civilians to be targeted well that has absolutely no moral and no political standing one either takes a clear position on. the protection for civilian noncombatants in conflict or one doesn't and if one doesn't i think down should have the decency to admit that he values different human life differently according to his political preferences ok dan would you like to reply to that. to remind us so where we are you know the two other participants norman and when the sound i think came from mars not from planet earth and what we're facing here is

a situation which israel is under a barrage of rockets initiated by hamas which refused to cease fire which continues to use homeschools to thaw or at israelis which is cynically trying to raise the casualty not number of to see if there is a person or a few who are its own for on one of her own purposes last week would know it's last week when israel offered calm for calm hamas only rejected it but went on aggressively to launch continued rocket turps so this is what i'm talking about so let's be let's all play along and see what we're talking well not pretend but. that's what i wanted to please only you know reading articles on the way along ok that's the problem ok when we knew wanted to say something go ahead ok. go ahead. you know why should i play along with with pure fantasy. the fact of the matter is

you want only us to consult it is israeli press where netanyahu states explicitly that israel has no interest in a cease fire and that a cease fire is not on the agenda and massa stating that there is no one to negotiate a ceasefire with now one can either accept that and in dan's case seek to justify it because apparently his political principle is that whatever anything and everything israel does is right or you know one can start making things up and putting forth these these increasingly bald assertions and bringing in mars and earth and what not but you know facts are facts and at some point people have to deal with them ok norman it's slightly change gears here this time around hamas doesn't have a lot. particularly when we look at egypt and its other arab donors say they're alone standing alone right now and you know it looks like tel aviv sees this is an

opportunity hamas is isolated the entire middle east is aflame right now it's an opportunity for tel of eve to get rid of their greatest nemesis. right but you have to understand why hamas is their greatest nemesis moss' their greatest number says because they formed a unity government with the palestinian authority hamas is their greatest nemesis because hamas agreeing to the conditions set forth by the e.u. and the us for negotiations hamas is their greatest enemy because the us and the e.u. agreed to negotiate with the new unity government hamas is their greatest enemy because hamas was so weak as you correctly put it hamas was so weak that it was now being forced in a position where together with the palestinian authority it would negotiate a reasonable settlement of the conflict and that's the thing that netanyahu like

israel's leaderships in the past have always dreaded that's why they coined the phrase these palestinian peace offenses israel doesn't know what to do when the palestinians are ready to negotiate so it does what it always does hamas pounds then it is going on this is a term that you know is a shade of gauges are not. going to get on and i want to give the last word to dan dan twenty seconds i want to be fair go ahead. hamas is a terrorist organization branded as such by us law in other countries around the world hamas is recklessly causing the situation hamas will has to pay a dear price for what it's doing israel cannot stand idly by in the face of the cynical policy conducted by hamas it will continue until brings prison peace and tranquility to the land of israel ok do you think that's going to happen norm in

ten seconds will be peace and tranquility in the land of israel when israel negotiates a settlement of the conflict according to international law everybody's ready for the conflict to end except the lunatics in tel aviv ok gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks i guess in a minute mr new york in amsterdam and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember prosper. you. we never saw that coming. we had no idea or children were gay. i

would actually just night pray to god you know me normal. they said you're a homo you're a homo and from that day in first grade i swear my life changed forever i became like the ridicule i don't think it stopped still to this day. well obama and texas instructs school teachers to tell pupils young people that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle and also instructs them to say that homosexual sex in private is a crime in those states if the church was going to fire me that's what they had to do but i was going to do this with. and.

with these economic ups and downs in the final month a month the deal sang i and the rest because i think it will be a briefly on thing. this is about making the business survive. corporations don't love your parishioners told hate corporations have no feeling. for issues to you or me. corporations when we offer. people come to untouched for sins and leave massively in the sea come on. we're not going to quit we will not stop until it is what is more precious

music more moving. israeli air bombardments of guys have led to the deaths of more than ninety palestinians among the many children we hear from those in the midst of the shelling. relations between the u.s. and germany reached a new low as berlin kicks out a top cia official in retaliation to the latest spy scandal plus. as kiev says it's ready for a cease fire in the east of ukraine we meet families who've been devastated by the army air raids.