hello and welcome to crossfire for all things considered on peter logo surviving the onslaught israel's continued assault on gaza has brought about international outrage and condemnation what does israel hope to achieve and will gaza suffering ever and. to across not the situation in gaza i'm joined by my guest in jerusalem he is a writer activist and author of the book the general's son journey of an israeli in palestine in tel aviv we have given levy he is a columnist and a member of the newspaper's editorial board and in new york we crossed afraid laysan he is a professor emeritus at ben gurion university as well as a visiting scholar at new york university and author of the book the struggle for soviet jewry in american politics right gentlemen cross-talk rules and a fact that means you can jump in anytime you want i very much encouraged me to go in jerusalem if i go to you first here all talks of a cease fire and truce have come to an end at least as well as we speak right now

what's israel's game plan. it's hard to say what israel's a plan is but if you take a look at the last sixty five years it's pretty clear that israel is intending to continue to bomb and destroy as much as possible in gaza i think it would have been a ved to expect the cease fire would these talks would lead to anything since we have sisi on one hand who works for the israelis or the americans and we have units on the out who really has no motivation no intention to stop terrorizing and stop this brutal violence against. the palestinians in gaza but the attacks on gaza are nothing new they've been going on for since the gaza strip was created in the early fifty's israel wants a palestinian to go down on their knees and surrender of course they don't and so therefore israel has to continue to bomb them if you were to be a little hopeful we would say that perhaps the world will step in the steinman stop israel and perhaps force israel to end the siege and so on but as for now i don't expect israel will will will want to stop to stop the violence at all fred in new

york would you like to weigh in here what do you think israel's game plan here is what is the end game where you're going to vote for. ok first of all are ok i have a problem with this word onslaught israeli onslaught of the fact is if any war crimes are being committed at the moment the big committed by hamas are just to quote my friend the palestinian ambassador at the united nations mr krishi or crazy i apologize if i'm mispronouncing its name made the comment the hamas send hundreds of missiles into civilian areas that's considered a walk rhyme even gives the israelis credit of notifying people when buildings about to be hid so they can get out of the buildings which he says is no longer a situation of a war crime now my previous colleague mr pallid talks about the onslaught in the horrors and all of that if hamas agreed to the cease fire it would have been all been over this morning

a couple of hours ago but instead it's continuing for whatever reason they wanted to continue they probably are of the opinion that in this current situation they might have less to lose but one should keep in mind this was all started by a provocation from them if you want to blame the time yahoo hamas caved in a ten yahoo and excuse they murdered three israeli young men outside of jerusalem and that is why the whole story as we all know you know now of hamas did that and you don't know for a fact that we have to be clear i left ok. let's see who will lead our i don't know let's go to our third guess a total of the votes go to get in and tell of eve you know this knocking on the roof this is considered fair by the israelis but you know hamas says you know we're going to fire rockets at israel and most members of every family in israel probably has

a member in the in the israeli military so i mean you know i don't see the difference there i mean everyone's giving notice here bit of four out of five people killed in gaza are civilians. basically it's all about without using doubt and timing wrong way nobody in the nothing wrong can have a doubt is nothing good can i am talking to you again right now we are coming back to you fred which happen for air time for everyone do you need to go here john guinee and please go ahead said to john to be an omega didn't you say something if you are just for me as i said anything on the program he hasn't said anything yet how first a phone one should see the real context of what's happening in the real context is that series released were kidnapped and murdered by some terrorists that this is a must build this needs that they stood behind it and did not take responsibility for their kidnaps and there is no proof that crime us is an organization to lend

the then stood behind it maybe yes maybe no but in any case this next step was. israel in the west they are claiming that israel is going to smash the hamas in the west bank arresting five hundred sixty beasts come i say cleve east including some legislators that had nothing to do none of them to the kidnap and to the murder after the scame the. murder and the burning of a palestinian child by individuals by all means by individuals who are now being brought to justice but their war that israel declared on hamas in the west bank was responded by hamas in gaza. by rockets that's that's the real context of everything and you can't stop just there was there ok it's you have almost two hours to save what brought them now right now i'm not sure that the truth. will be

respected because all reza after each operation there are few hours in which both spot these. to say the last word i think right now it's in the interest of israel and hamas to put an end to this because above all we have to remember is interested only in one thing in maintaining the start of school and. fighting disturbs these the goal is to maintain the status quo. see each west bank on the israeli occupation let's wait ok mico when you want to jump in there because we had the unity government here and we have hamas isolated relatively speaking if we can go back to two thousand it doesn't have a lot of friends in the neighborhood anymore is this convenient for israel this moment well listen they can be interesting and i like that he then wanted to put this in context and again we cannot look at this conflict unless we take

a larger look at the context of the context is that israel has been attacking in bombing palestinians in gaza since the gaza strip was created in the in the one nine hundred fifty s. that is almost seven decades of attacking the people in gaza the rockets have nothing to do with it and i get on with saying if there are rockets if israel does not like the rockets then we need to remember that the mass is a resistance organization if there was no israeli brutal oppression if there was no . occupation of palestine there would be no need for a palestinian resistance official is not like the resistance israel has the power to change all that i would recommend certainly immediately ending the violence unilaterally by israel lifting the siege of gaza beginning to reconstruct help the people in gaza reconstruct the horrendous damage and try to compensate them with arrest. him for some restitution and then begin to rebuild anything less than that would be would be

a complete joke people are focused on on the on the process all the type hamas and this hamas that hamas is not the issue the issue is israeli agree. towards gaza and towards the palestinians for almost seven decades and if we don't address this we will address nothing we will achieve nothing ok fred in new york you want to respond to what we've heard so far ok what y. one should one should keep in mind that israel didn't go into the gaza strip until nine hundred sixty seven the gaza strip was set up and controlled by the egyptians israel didn't create that problem when. pulled out of gaza he pulled out israeli settlements he pulled out the israeli army and we've got missiles in our cities now to say that it's not about missiles but it's about as you're hitting the right he is red it is not created there are a few g.'s israel created there are a few g.'s for a who man as if he was only god said let me live and i had many of the people in gaza they would lead refute my wife if israel was not me just know i

want to piss in fresh meat and i finished my ph and fred was only there john hating fred and i wanted to finish your point please to my mother my mother in law my mother in law who was sitting in that today ninety two years old sits on a porch and tell a big she has no bunkers she has no shelter and she listens to sirens where was she from she was from a place called baghdad in the country of iraq one hundred thirty thousand iraqi jews came to israel they lived in tents they lived in shacks and they all found housing one should ask the question why the palestinians that fled to arab countries were never reabsorb it was an intent to jeopardize with the legitimacy of the state of israel they were kept under horrible condition terror friday we had sat listening later him and had to go to why can't the palestinians have their country where they would feel safe go ahead gideon i don't see the example how it works go ahead there are plenty of out there plenty of the other having

a felony and jumping cattle are going to clear the way her royal for every moment her citizens get in go ahead. you didn't let me comment. there is a major difference between the jews who fled from iraq and the palestinians which were expelled from gaza because the jew so lift the rock made the reason be any kind of reason it's come to a place where they became full citizens in their own homeland in the old and free states while the palestinians until these very moment nodes were not able to create themselves a state to serve the term in themselves to have any kind of rights on this piece of land and as long as these railways. in the west nodes realized the palestinian heaven exactly but exactly the same rights on this

piece of land nothing will change and unfortunately the big majority of the third my fellow israelis did never but never they just never really agreed to this really a very very very basic faked that not only the palestinians have the same right radius i say i don't hate everybody john mason here will give you a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the state . police with.

your comment. on the face. a pleasure to have you with us here on our team today i'm sure. this is about making the business survive. that. corporations don't love your parishioners don't eat corporations

have no feeling. corporations don't care about you or me corporations will make her book for. people come to untouched for sins and leave massive bleeds for the state come on. we're not going to quit we will not stop until it is done what is more precious music more more. if. it was there a moment very hard to take a look once again on

a plane fly out of that x.x. with a perfect hair cut if it's going to. smash if it was. safe. if the people. one of the wonderful in a lot of these policies i think you know. a

pleasure to have you with us here on our team today i'm sure lead. despite all the democracy slogans that we're heard from the white house you seem to believe that deep down the u.s. administration has a sort of cultural bias towards a believing that arabs or your rock is on simply not capable of democracy in the middle east is that it's been the site for multiple competitions by great powers and empires no real ability to consolidate legitimate nation states except under military dictatorships i think if these parts of the world were left alone a little bit more by the rest of us it's possible that we might see more successful

democratic experiment. at least the only solution. is a. little. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle reminder we're discussing the situation in gaza. ok fred right before the break you said you wanted to jump in place there ok why i why. to agree with two things that could own said one is these optimistic are hopeful that maybe there will be of cease fire in a very very short period of time despite what's happened i agree and i hope that that's the case i think it's in everyone's benefit of the second point is without

a doubt i agree with him of the solution has to be two states for two people a jewish state in israel a palestinian state in palestine i have no trouble with that and i think most israelis in principle would support that one of the major problems just come out as hamas is committed my other colleague from jerusalem talks about we have to rebuild gaza why we build gaza so they can bring in more and more alms what hamas has done over the last couple years is to bring in missiles which is designed to kill israelis they're not building a society that wants peace a society that one speech recognizes the of them the pallor the hamas not the palestinian authority we fuse to recognize the state of israel abbas wants to make peace i hope that we pressure put on him pressure put on it and the hour or so that they will bring about peace talks again ok album is his position ok if i go

to you i mean i certainly don't see two states there i see one very long brutal occupation in the west bank is getting smaller and smaller for the palestinians i don't i don't believe in this peace talk and two state solution stuff anymore it's a joke you're absolutely right and i think you asked the key question peter at the top of the program when you said will gaza suffering ever end i think the suffering will only end once the world intervenes once the world puts a stop to israeli brutality once. states that have relations with israel pull way their ambassadors and force and force there is really this is really about is back to tell of eve and all this has to be done until the siege is lifted until palestinian few jews are allowed to repatriate and it's not true that hamas is not built hamas has done quite actually admirable job in gaza. considering all the situations i was all the other conditions i was in gaza and i saw that and i have spoke to many people there but that's not the point because hamas is not the point the point is the brutality like you said peter the onslaught and the ongoing

oppression of palestinians whether they're in gaza who seem to suffer the largest the largest amount of violence by israel the palestinians in the west bank are fairing very poorly they live under horrific horrific conditions palestinians inside israel some of the some of the towns in cite israel israeli citizens look like refugee camps because israel treats them with contempt and does not allow them to grow does not allow them to build the question here is and as we've seen there is palestinian unity as we saw the last few weeks the protests were not focus were not only in the west bank and in gaza there are protests in the north or protest in the south and other places an injured run jerusalem the issue is the world has got to intervene the world has to start treating israel the way treated apartheid in south africa pull away i mean pull out there there in bassa tears stop the stop the trade begin to boycott imposed sanctions on israel until dark and israel are allows for the rebuilding of gaza allows for the repatriation of the refugees and allows

for a real solution to this problem which like you said is not going to be the two state solution because israel killed it but a single democracy where israelis and palestinians can live free and equal until such time there has to be to make jones i don't know where you go on israel go ahead frag go ahead. make. me got to know who you represent i don't know you're speaking for ninety percent of the jews of israel one a jewish state they don't want one state that's going to be a buying national state or you talk about the world word repatriation i suggest you look at the comments of no i'm chomsky he's a leftist in the united states that just broke with the be the last moment here in norman finkelstein made it clear the b.b.s. the boycott disinvestment sanction. he is out to destroy israel they want repatriation they make note is the same comment you make they make no distinction between israel and the occupied territories take the test me on you talk about

israeli arabs he does israel nineteen percent of the technion so that israel are arab israelis is the top technological university take a look at the west bank they have the best health care of any arabs in the middle east with the exception of the gulf states ok they have a good haiti and so says of the i don't know what he does have the west bank. the palestinians have to thank for the israelis for their wonderful comfort in the west bank. it's an occupation and it should end that's my position go ahead but it isn't because they say that it is about go ahead gays line equal time gentlemen if you've been equal our time to get in go ahead. yeah i envy people like fred who always have a real imaginative creative imagination to find all ways the best

excuses why not to put an end to the occupation so now it is hamas and before hamas it was our occupation and in between it was about us and in between aid between it was the terror every period of time has its own excuse why israel showed. remain in the occupied territories because they are such enemies on the other side and one day hamas will be gone and someone else will come it is and will use someone else's an excuse the majority of israelis and even the majority of the american jewry are in favor of the two state solution but not in those here someday where it will be convenient when nobody will disturb when we will be ready for these until then let the palestinians live under these brutal cruel inhuman criminal q patient for ever meet one of the things i found very interesting in watching the story on develop developing in gaza is israeli politics itself and the

cuyp of right wing political rhetoric it's it's really quite ghastly in people watching the bombing of gaza as if it was a sport. yes but you have to remember that the state of vision was created after a massive terrorist attack that ended up ethnically that ended up with ethnic cleansing of palestine over fifty percent of the population of palestine was forced into exile so if you compare what's happening today to that you see there is a continuity it is the exact same story it's the genocidal tendencies of a racist colonialist regime against the. smaller states as well talking about the ways in talking about in talking about the west bank israel is the one who blurred the differences between the west bank and the rest of the country wasn't me so we cannot come and say i am not i make no difference between the west bank and other parts of the country israel completely eliminated that difference when it in fact

integrated the west bank into the rest of the country when you drive on the highways here you don't see any difference between the signs that go to the cities and colonies in the west bank and cities and colonies that in other parts of the country this is a reality that israel has created now i don't recall the whites in south africa wanting apartheid to end either and welcoming l. someone del as president but one day they woke up in the morning and the world said enough and that was enough and nelson mandela was president and apartheid fell israelis might not want this today but they are going to make of it only one morning when this is going to be a reality here fred jumpin you know how kids if they don't like that are gonna go out our nation or backward if no i'm trying to have the population is palestinian let me just finish what i'm trying to ensure point for the surely you do not like the fact that over half the population are so thank you if they don't like the fact that over half the population is arab here are palestinian arabs then they can go live somewhere else the reality here over fifty percent of the population are palestinians they cannot continue to live under this brutal inhumane regime again

whether they live on a gradually in the west that are gaza or in jerusalem go ahead fred a new york. ok ok mostly i think that you're making the same mistake you're saying basically so my mother marcia go back to live in baghdad which today the right even christians anymore let alone jews the fact is the solution is a two state solution who you are suggesting is a one state you want to do away you want to dismantle the state of israel and let it become a binational democracy supposedly while most israelis want a jewish state and the solution here are go back to get it done there has to be a two state solution but the pressure that you want to bring on israel is basically to dismantle it you need pressure that's going to focus on the west bank on occupation when no one chance chomsky's comment is he says most people in the world don't see israel as being an apartheid state that's not true of the west bank and

gaza of gaza no longer belongs to when israel ok don't make that yes they don't get it but it's under siege by israel it's under siege isn't it under a ghastly siege isn't getting in jump in here what is the future of this what is this for the future of this because they keep trying over and over again to destroy hamas but it's not working so what's the next step. unfortunately the next step will be the focus their passing is that you the same police see the same intention the intention of israel is right but as they say it's to maintain the status quo as disposable as long as possible for those talking about the two state solution. how do i know that they're empty because israelis continue to build the settlement hands and nobody serious nobody we say with really believe

that someone who wants to divide the lands is building in the other side of the land like so as though gets it. israelis building said the man says israeli saying no two state solution and israeli saying yes for an apartheid state and we are on the way there maybe we are over there i see the two state solution is a train that left a long time ago the station nobody will be ever able to make a living i want to go to give me give you the last word here what is the culpability of the americans in this because if they they said no it would something would be very different on the ground. the americans the americans and the europeans are complicit with israeli crimes they're making they're making billions and billions of dollars selling israeli arms they are complicit the europeans and the americans this is a crime that goes far beyond just the boundaries of israel and palestine this is

a crime that for which for which i hope one day american politicians and european politicians will either apologize or be brought to justice this is a complete they are all complicit in these crimes against the palestinians and i think it's a part to make clear that the dismantling of apartheid in south africa was a good thing for also i'm sorry we've run out of time gentlemen fascinating the program many thanks to my guests in jerusalem tel aviv and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are can see you next time and remember. the things.

i say all the bankers into the circular firing squad put all the bankers to jamie diamond to lloyd blankfein to bob diamond put them into a circular firing squad and give them all poland's let's get rid of all the laws we've got of her the system of this cancer of the marriott tragedies of the world. that's right. people are going to. hear. your answer to everything. the law oh well. like. most of the society

the business is close to eight months now but sometimes for nothing the length this season and it's. not just any of the story you'll be shocked if you see the stage eight looked to be. but speech was the book's . dramas that can't be ignored to. stories others refuse to notice. closest changing the world right now. so picture of today's news. from around the globe. local. t.v.

. israel returns to its sweeping blitz on guards around for a cease fire plan full flat with palestinian deaths quickly surging beyond two hundred now. protests against the israeli offensive take hold worldwide in london is anger at the b.b.c. which campaigners say is not giving the full picture of the conflict we talked to one of the protesters. coming up to the brics nations lay the ground to even up the world's financial influences as some of the most populated countries signed up to a multi-billion dollar cooperation deal. from hijacking your e-mail address.