reaction what else are you hearing there. well the whole airline industry everybody flying out of europe anybody in fact there's five across. the this eastern part of ukraine is diverting their flight some airlines like british airways about she said they're not even going to fly into. into ukrainian airspace apart from one flight into kiev but yes the likes of aeroflot air france k l m trans aero virgin tons and others of all said that they're not going to fly over that particular area of eastern ukraine in fact a euro control which is the governing watchdog of air traffic safety here in europe has issued a statement to all airlines saying do not fly over this part of eastern ukraine now as i say some airlines taken out even further in saying they're not going to fly over ukraine in the slightest but we have seen. a real outpouring of

of commiseration of regret from european leaders the it seems like there has been a significant number of europeans caught up in this disaster. as one of the major hubs and world aviation and this is a route that flies regularly from europe into asia from amsterdam to kuala lumpur we heard from the french foreign minister who said that as far as he understood at least four french citizens were among those that have died or we believe that have died those that have been involved in this crash as i say we still can't. rule out the well it would be a miracle right now if anybody had survived the pictures that we've seen that's come from from eastern ukraine right now but the french foreign minister saying at least four french citizens caught up there. the dutch prime minister well it worth to note that the flight m.h. seventeen with the malaysian air ways fight flight was also a k.l.

am flight at the same time with the number four one zero. three many dutch citizens believed to have been on board there the t.v. stations here in germany are putting that number perhaps as high as seventy one the dutch prime minister himself confirmed that there was at least thirty citizens on board but what we've seen from the passports those grim grim images of passports on the ground and the of the crash site there's many dutch passports there as well as the malaysian passports and of the europeans as well in the u.k. we are hearing reports that they may have been as many as or at least nine british citizens on board the prime minister in london david cameron has said that senior figures in his government are meeting to try and to ascertain the facts and this is the one thing that has been coming out continuously from european leaders after they've expressed their regret in their condo and says they've. been going on to

saying they just want to get more information about this disaster so that they can pass that on to their citizens david cameron saying that that's what his government were going to be doing the dutch prime minister mr ritter also saying that there was just so much still unclear he said the facts circumstances and passengers just remained somewhat still a mystery in this disaster and in fact a lot of the the dutch news websites that i've been looking at a lot of dutch social media has been calling for a new statement from the dutch pm something to just give them some information that does seem well though this is a global disaster it is a disaster for the for the airline and anybody on board the malaysian people but a real disaster for the people of the netherlands as well and they're demanding some kind of action from their leaders so we'll be looking to see if we get any more statements from him he's understood to be. back to the netherlands right now

he had been in brussels for a summit as soon as he gets back there i think we'll be hearing so. something from him about this this real catastrophe that has affected people from from all over the world yeah comprehensive all from all over there because what peter was saying really as well a lot of european leaders a lot of european nations as well trying to find out how many of their own citizens were on the flight which is you know it's a really. difficult situation to be in of course as well as also what peter was saying he was talking but the major earth car you're seeing there are deferring their flight plans to avoid ukrainian earth space europe's transport agency europe control is ordered to steer clear of the country. ok international affairs and security analyst mark sloboda can speak to us now very good evening to you marc we just you know several people i mean it's difficult to

do anything but speculate really put what generally people are saying when we've asked them about any possible connection between this tragedy and the conflict in eastern ukraine as well it would be such a stretch of imagination to consider this is a coincidence and that really most people think there was a connection how about you yes it would have to agree that it would be. coincidence if this had nothing to do with the situation in the ukraine. considering that this is a combat zone and the number of aircraft sorties that have been made out of the area planes shot down it seems very unlikely that. this situation would occur outside of that context now state department spokesperson jen psaki she was really careful when commenting on the situation perhaps understandably so but she said quote we have seen the reports everybody else has seen it and that is it

perhaps surprising she avoided any mention of the military operation in ukraine normally she's not backwards in being forward when it comes to mentioning the hostilities there. but i think that even the white house realizes the gravity of the situation and the implications with all of the evidence of the facts with only a bare minimum of the evidence of the facts and no one wants to know particularly no government wants to have made a statement that will later prove to be untrue so everyone i think is doing it or at least the responsible players are doing the correct thing and ovoid ing any type of politically polarizing speculation with this tragic event. marketing just to punish thing point which is very sadly the different nationalities of the of the people on board this plane which just made me think

that if it turns out that either side in the crank conflict turned out to be responsible for this politically this becomes it becomes global doesn't that oh absolutely this is already a global situation i mean this what we are seeing in the ukraine is a proxy conflict at least at some level between the us and the e.u. on the one side and. at some extent separatists will look to russia for guidance on the other so. this already has global implications we are in a state of heightened tension that really hasn't been seen since the cuban missile crisis and adds this scenario on top of that and it becomes even more explosives so it's not just the character of of the crew but the type of the situation this will be

a game changer one way or the other with whatever the exact sequence of events and parties turn out to be mark this is union here in the studio just to continue that point we're already hearing planes and country planes over just who is to blame. how quickly do you believe the truth will come night. well i think that we will. the truth is is objective truth will be a somewhat contested result in this i don't know if we'll ever know exactly what the truth is i imagine that we will hear competing narratives of truths come out in the hours and days ahead so i wouldn't pin too much hope on any one scenario receiving in absolute certainty that this is what happened we will be playing in a very gray very murky area with very heated accusation contest stations back and

forth and of course the record is nice spread over what is effectively eye conflict zone so that's going to make any investigation very difficult itself no matter in fight those counterclaims etc isn't it absolutely i would expect we've already heard calls the. british government has already called for a security council mergence a security council meeting which would be expected i expect that both the united states and russia i would hope will make calls for a cease fire and for this area to come under some kind of agreed upon neutral jurisdiction perhaps with the o. a c e although they have proved sometimes to be somewhat less than a neutral player than might be hoped so that some kind of proper investigation can be conducted all right international affairs and security analyst marks the go to

thanks for your input this hour let's in fact go a little bit closer to to the situation because our r.t. spanish correspondent francisco he's out the scene of the crush right know he's been getting talking to eyewitnesses he's been talking to authorities here's what he reported in his latest file. if firemen are trying to finish with their fire that is still in some parts of the different pieces of the aircraft like just seeing one kilometer around we have seen these itself aircraft and pieces . of bodies that it's clear that it's very difficult in this situation that this could be any survival we have to. see services and they said that they didn't have the opportunity to have any one alive.

they said they couldn't do these because we don't have the captain reality to shut down an aircraft that is mean and attitude of ten thousand dollars on the other hand polishing god a job already and have. a militia to shut down. and said that east is special that somehow there could be not just an accident but we would base it on terrorists direct and they said that these issues are also in charge of the. mustache and airlines they said that they lost their connection with the grass. green berets base. we also managed to speak to people in eastern ukraine who witnessed the crash here's what they had to say. when we were swimming and we had me distinction on

with me not sure it was more like you losen and then was oh the plane falling its wing was falling off a bus and then with a laugh of no turns and that's all you so i would record about my brother is there at the moment there are many people and debris everywhere around the ticket program today. everything around it simply horrific so many bodies who couldn't even count of them. let's get more indeed reaction from the eyewitnesses some suspect the ukrainian military could be behind the tragedy while others are pointing the finger at and t. government men fighters let's take a listen to what this particular eyewitness had to say. it's shocking on my last in japan. only why are there passports most. of my view tourists this is an evolution to complain was ripped into many pieces scattered over five hundred thousand units of the local militia so the plane was shot down with

a missile fired by them by showing this information is on. there is of course ability that it was. going to shoot their weapons the defense was. a shooting down an aircraft to shoot a ten thousand meters. and we have another comment for you from a local resident who arrived at the scene this was about thirty minutes after the crash. it was terrible what i saw at first i saw smoke and fire and when the firemen started to put out the flames i saw bodies torn apart there were children too there were bodies attached to see here and there. are to international also managed to speak to the deputy prime minister of the self-proclaimed republic no he denies allegations from kiev that anti government forces could be behind this aster and saying they lack the capability to shoot down a plane at such a high altitude gesticulate well that's what. we have no radio station anti

missile systems could not have shot down even accidentally we were unable to spot it on radar it was flying at ten thousand meters so technically we could not have done this i would like to remind you that ukraine's government has published an internet is going to get its. you know really because even that russian unmanned aircraft had to be moved by leasing airspace i think being talked about for russian military didn't show up. and the eyewitness reports now starting to build up but unfortunately despite the number of reports we're getting we're not really getting a clearer picture of what happened certainly nothing to sort of clarify only gate the possibility of any kind of missile being fired so really number one is unfortunately at this point it seems the more we do here the more that we can piece together of course i think that's what you have to do in such a tragedy we have

a correspondent there at the scene who is who is collecting as much information as he possibly can getting it together we're hearing reaction from from ukraine authorities from malaysian authorities from the early line itself and you know constantly coming in i have to remind our viewers as well but it is only still a number of hours old here. although the investigation itself seems to be going on at some pace with some of the self defense forces claiming to have already access to some of the right data recorders so that there is activity taking place in some place by the sound of on the ground sadly this large scale tragedy well it's not even the first time that the civil plane has been downed over ukraine thirteen years ago similar incident happened over the black sea let's find out more about that of course but at medina caution of who joins us medina take us back to sadly the other tragedy there was a quote it was not

a similar case and president an incident that has its own similarities to the chances with been discussing here for the past couple of hours now he was russian clean their savior an operator airliner that were lying from tell of if israel to novosibirsk and the plane was carrying sixty six passengers. onboard together with the twelve crew members now somewhere around the era of the black sea of the russian ground control center lost contact with the plane so the best basically disappeared from the russian raider now very soon after it was reported that the russian plane went down into the black sea and of course there's been an investigation underway there's been lots of reports there was even one reported. when pilot so i believe it was an armenian and line and now that's a pilot remembered that he saw

a russian plane explode just before it crashed into the sea now the investigators behind the plane crash believed that it was a terrorist attack for quite a while that was the you number one version why of that crash took place in the black sea however later it was revealed the plane crash happened due to the ukrainian minister. broad down of the plane and it happened accidentally during a military x. assizes military drills that were taking place at the same time and very close to the area of the plane crash now the thing that i need to say is that it took ukraine a quite a while to acknowledge that that happened that they did mistakenly shoot down a russian commercial airliner over the black sea that only happened after international community after international investigators together with the an

international society acknowledged the same thing the same reason to be actually behind the plane crash again that happened back in two thousand and one it was a tragedy that took the lives of over seventy people and for many people who were listening to the news this evening hearing of what happened that just went through their minds. yeah. to kind of see the similarities and fortunately history repeating itself in a small aspect let's hope it's no less and let's let's hope it isn't in a much larger scale because the ramifications of that would be well not something that with the sort of bad thinking about at the moment anyway thanks so much for bringing us up to date that medina coach just to reiterate we are speaking about a plane crash that looks to have killed up to three hundred people two hundred ninety five just shy of three hundred people

a malaysian early lines flight and for more on the reaction to it i think we can join evy ition security expert julian bray to talk more about the plane crash that we're hearing a lot of by it's not the first time during the malaysian airlines plane crash this year alone just give us some feedback as to what see if the record their truck record is like. let's let us talk about the aircraft that boeing triple seven is a very safe aircraft is fly by wire it has redone systems which means if one system goes down then another one pops up we're now we still haven't actually resolve the situation with the missing aircraft in the indian ocean but this is a completely different scenario and what i can't understand is why malays you know ways allowed their seven seven seven to fly through what is a combat zone and it's flying at normal height round about thirty two thousand feet

and at normal speed now there are several theories but it will probably be a big missile that actually brought it down if it was a missile and i have to say that various factions are trying to pass the blame it's going backwards and forwards and we're not actually getting anywhere but the result is that a very large commercial aircraft which everybody knew was up there has been shot down and there's been tremendous loss of life and of course our hearts go out to all those who are affected by this. i can only reiterate what you just said there are absolutely and given that ukraine's army is carrying out a military operation in the east of the country and why are planes still allowed to fly over the area you say that you are very surprised at it that it's happened but a lot of airlines are doing it. yes i am quite surprised because there's a thing called a no sandwich is

a notice which is put out is an advisory notice and they say well since june understand ukraine has been declared basically a no go area for civil aviation but again it's up to individual airlines if they can get clearance they have to plot their own routes north so it's up to the captain at the aircraft to decide whether he's actually going to take that route or whether he's going to arse to be put on a deviation route around the affected area now i can tell you right now that nearly all the airlines are now taking notice of that no sam and you soon going to find that ukraine is is going to be a no fly zone not only for commercial aircraft but also cargo so somebody has got to get round the table and sort this mess out meanwhile and stan that boeing is sending a team over to start the investigation and there are many countries involved because

the passenger manifest it started off at amsterdam so we haven't actually got the list yet but you can imagine all those countries will want to know what actually happened to their nationals. julian this is nail also in studio here i just wanted to mention that the malaysian defense minister said. that he's got no information on how why the plane crashed and this been coming from kiev they say could have been down i mean we know roughly the altitude it was out i believe it was like thirty three thousand feet from your experience is that something that that's likely. i think it looks judging by that it was actually hit by a missile but we can't confirm this it would have to be a large miss my understanding is that ukraine government has large missiles but the rebels only have manned packs which the missile fired on his shoulder so might have been what they would call a lucky shot and they might as seen a bleed

a big black outline in the sky thinking it was a transport aircraft a military transport that is possible but i would have thought that the ground troops ground forces would have actually had radios and they would actually have a fair indication that it was a commercial airliner above them and also i mean we've been asking several experts that we've we've spoken to this ending but you know not always the same response how quickly would you say any investigation could could bring us some kind of concrete information about what happened. well i understand the black boxes been discarded or been recovered so obviously that will actually have all the the flights all the comments between the pilots on the flight deck and that she will actually plot the primary systems for a period so that will actually go some way and also we know roughly what time it went down a way it went down and also i see reuters are sending out very graphic pictures at

the moment so they can start working on that and then of course there's all the satellite traffic and they're all constantly taking photographs so somebody will be able to establish possibly at a military level shall we say with a missile was actually used to take this down. as i say it's either a horrible mistake or a catastrophic mistake or somebody clearly wanted to take that aircraft out julian unit here again in a studio while you've been speaking we've been looking at pictures from the scene we're constantly being. up dated with but really tragic. really horrible stuff what we're seeing are endless and what we're seeing are large on burn chunks of debris as well which i was told is quite unusual for such a crash is there anything at all we can deduce from that. well well i think you can deduce that there was an impact somewhere on the fuselage of

a high velocity impact which is pointing to the missile route but there again we need the experts in this is pure conjecture and so basically if that happened then of course it would have blown a hole in the aircraft and then the rest of it would have fallen out of risk i know not all that would have been burnt up but that is purely speculation no basis in fact just finally can you just take us through what happens when a rocket hits a plane does that mean the immediate end of the plane or does it depend what part of the plane it hits except or well i think that's a bit way above my pay grade actually because i'm more interest in the operations in the security side rather than what's what is the full military attack normally civil aviation civil aircraft to try and stay away from conflict zones unless of course they are ordered in because they're carrying troops or or arm and saw war

materials and so is highly unlikely that people getting on the plane in amsterdam would think that they're going to be taken to a wall through a war zone here because that in effect is what it is and i would hope that all the countries involved will now start banging a few heads together and say write letters get this situation resolved and in the meantime no civil aviation no civil aircraft no cargo aircraft will be going anywhere near ukraine because that's the way it's going very insightful absolutely security expert julian bray we thank you for speaking to us this hour and i just wanted to say off of the back what julian had to say there and it would be really interesting to see if we can get somebody on there to discuss this when someone's getting on a plane like that to what extent they. are aware of the flight path would they be aware of them going over a conflict zone. it seems to be valid

a lot of airlines were doing this and i assume their passengers were not or were well this is one of the interesting to find out and i hope possibly we can get somebody on the line to decide to discuss that let's move on though because the boeing seven seven seven gets more information on it is the world's largest wind jet airliner it was launched in one thousand nine hundred five it has a seating capacity of up to four hundred forty passengers it was also the first entirely computer designed commercial aircraft and one factor being highlighted on social media since this accident is that the fact that this particular plane's very first flight was on july seventeenth in one thousand nine hundred ninety seven. last exactly seventeen years later july seventeenth two thousand and four the details come and i absolutely. of

a different putin has expressed his deepest condolences to the people of malaysia and the families of all passengers and crew killed in this disaster the russian leader also discussed the tragedy with the u.s. president over the phone president putin was again stressed that own conditional cease fire must speed declared in ukraine with immediate effect meanwhile the leaders of the self-proclaimed script eastern ukraine announced a humanitarian truce will be implemented to allow a full investigation into the causes of the crash. ok we are going to of course keep you updated on what occurred in eastern ukraine with this plane crash any information as and when we get it you will know as soon as we do but for now we're going to go to more breaking news for you this hour from. where israel's defense forces say they have started a growing operation there harvey fear is on the line to tell us more hari what do

we know about this latest move by israel. thank you for a little bit of a difficult life speaking. but we were. going direct orders for one of my jobs as you. know. apologies we seems like we've lost connection there with heavy fear reporting from gaza weather report saw that israel has started a ground military operation will get him back on the line and speak to him again shortly. ok we're going to take a quick quick break i believe lots more all day it's coming up on the plane very shortly.

it looks good but the stability. so. look on the floor should you. put all the bankers into the circular firing squad put all the bankers the jamie

diamond the lloyd blankfein the bob diamond put them into a circular firing squad and give them all the bullets and let's get rid of them all at once we've got to turn to the system of this cancer of the marriott tragedies of the world. breaking news from eastern ukraine a malaysia airlines jet has crashed both sides of the ukraine conflict deny responsibility so what happened we have extensive breaking news coverage starting now. it's thursday july seventeenth four pm in washington d.c. on wednesday france you're watching our team america. a malaysian airlines passenger jet carrying two hundred ninety five people has crashed in eastern ukraine both ukraine government and to keep separatists deny responsibility for downing the air.