state department claims it has all the evidence it needs to lay blame on russia for the downing of the malaysian airliner but it won't disclose what is washington hiding. to cross talk to downing a flight m.h. seventeen i'm joined by my guest. in cleveland he was a professor and former czechoslovak diplomat in new york we have eric draitser he is a geo political analyst and founder of stop imperialism dot org and here in moscow we cross to erich krauss he is an independent political risk analyst right gentlemen cross-talk rules and i think that means you can jump in anytime you want to me if i go to you in cleveland first john kerry has ten of evidence he claims that russia is directly involved with the downing of this jet in ukraine killing two hundred ninety eight civilians what do you make of his case because he's reminds everyone he was a prosecutor one time how would how would you do in court. i think very badly but

in the court of the corporate media he's doing just fine because he knows exactly how to reduce a message to something very simple if not stupid and to appeal to the emotional irrational side of the people turning to the tragedy into a game where he and the worst in the white house are trying to whip out outrage disgust horror panic hate for russia and all these things and if there is some evidence or arguments these are just stated without actually being delivered and i too notice the strange use of the wart multan of evidence or he also saw an enormous amount of evidence and there is basically none interestingly enough he also read repeated or used as would be evidence the so-called leaked tapes by the kiev regime and the problem with those tapes is that many people already

pointed out that there are clearly frauds and fakes at the same time if one even looks into the content of these supposed conversations that were leaked they are mutually contradictory inconsistent the first two on point or argue that these supposed book better rewards based somewhere in the bought several the second tape put the battery in don't yes and then the video with the battery with one missile missing supposedly ensnare and now we know the bettery which also carry use as a would be clear proof of the guilt of the people. in done by us or even putting himself personally i was actually a ukrainian better of book when it was announced and here graded side of this in a second here ok eric in new york if i can go to you i was sitting in the u.s. state department looks like do you think so. social media is their primary evidence

no photographs no reconnaissance no physical evidence they haven't proved that showed anything to the public yet but they are so adamant they're so convinced that they're right but social media i mean this is getting down to twitter. well absolutely right and of course those of us who have been following for the last three four five years really since social media is explosion on to the mainstream scene we know that social media is very much under the control of u.s. and western intelligence not the least of which we remember what happened in libya all of the fake twitter accounts all of the fake suppose that eyewitness accounts of the alleged strafing of civilians by gadhafi we've seen the same with regard to syria multiple so-called twitterers and bloggers syrian girl syrian danny and others who have been exposed as frauds as well so it really strains credulity that we would be making a case or rather the united states establishment would be making a case on such an issue of vital importance from something like social media but i

would also return to the fact that it is not strictly social media you know on my subway right over here to the studio i happened to catch the cover page the cover story of the new york post one of our local rags here in new york city and the headline read vlad hey vlad why did you kill my son and it has a picture of you know some father of one of the civilian one of the civilians killed on the plane now think about exactly how that relates to the statements coming out of the state department and out of the u.s. government it's really i think quite clear that the u.s. media both mainstream media as well as what we see on social media is really an appendage of us of the u.s. political establishment of the state department in the u.s. political elite and that is a fact that i think is inescapable and it is a fundamental part of the way in which not only we should understand this issue but how the narrative is being framed the narrative is being strained to fit or rather the facts are being framed to fit a preconceived narrative as we've seen countless times in recent years and it if i

find it quite striking is that the blame is already been laid low figures are being made but it looks very clearly to me that the united states particularly does not really want an investigation be. well that investigation would probably show something they don't want to see and most likely and i'm not an expert here i'm going to wait for the investigation but it seems to me common sense says the ukrainians did it peter i don't know who did it frankly i have claimed expertise in various fields aerial warfare is not one of them one thing we do know is the americans have extraordinarily good signal intelligence they are spying on the entire world they know what you and i had for breakfast today it it defies belief to imagine that they didn't have spy satellites over the place where the events occurred that they did not have over the horizon radar watching what was

going on they clearly do have in their possession. hard evidence for what brought down the plane now what they're saying but just scary seem to be saying was a we have excellent evidence much better than the russians but he won't say what it is if they have this evidence and it was in their favor i would imagine it would be all over the pages of the new york post right now oddly it's just believe me we have a mountain of evidence well they had a mountain of evidence on the iraqi w m d two they'd made it up and. i think presume it presumptively i don't know what brought down the plane but if they do they should be telling us not just say trust me and yes they are creating this narrative and yes go ahead go ahead erica new york jump in. yeah i just wanted to add everything that eric said is true and actually one of the more respected journalists in the united states robert perry instantly published his article

really kind of pointing to that very same issue of the fact that the us has all kinds of surveillance including spy satellites and where is all of that information and i would just add one additional point that we know that nato we including the united states military. we're engaged in military drills and exercises in the black sea that ended on thursday july seventeenth the same day that the plane went down now if you're going to tell me that all of those nato forces from all of those countries including all of the surveillance that goes along with those exercises and not one of them picked up the data on the flight not one of them knew what was in the skies above them that is absolutely unbelievable and impractical a lot of it but to me in chicago cleveland it's very interesting is because really in u.s. media world media anglo-saxon they don't want to look at the ukrainian culpability in all of this it's completely black blacked out which is no one wants to talk about it and this is a force an army that does have capabilities. the ukrainian army is

basically the only one military force in the region on the ground that does have significant a real and proven capability to take down the plane. to what eric from new york. here referred to the military exercises that ended on the very day one. a seventeen one down the military exercise is called seabreeze or breece. two thousand and fourteen and the purpose of the military exercise with the involvement of some two hundred u.s. military specialists involved electronic fair and monitoring purposely and specifically all commercial traffic in the wider region in this respect the only most significant hardcore evidence which we received. is this moment from the briefing by the russian high command or the russian ministry

of defense from july twenty first and we received all the data and when that briefing came in it was almost completely ignore it is to be well you western leaders and by us through media and actually that should have been. all of the game changing evidence that was brought in but very much like the tapes about snipers from the first reaction is deafening silence on the part of the west and then delaying tactic and putting into the media space more and more of the emotional triggers that are supposed to confuse mislead and control the narrative eric in new york city think of the of the evidence let me go to eric as we go to the break real quick here eric in new york it's very interesting as i watch that briefing the defense ministries briefing it was really quite interesting and probably could have been presented a little bit better but it was interesting again just almost completely ignored

almost ninety nine percent ignored in western media something very very important. absolutely and if you look at the statements from the state department what they said for their reasoning when they were pressed i believe it was a piece matthew lead the one of the only reporters in washington exact asking any real questions i believe he pressed the state department spokesperson to explain why when russia had presented all of their evidence and laid it out on the table why the united states was unwilling to do so and i believe the answer and i suppose i'm paraphrasing a little bit was that there is quote no equivalence between russian surveillance and intelligence and usa american intelligence whatever exact whatever exactly that supposed to mean and truly i don't really know what exactly that supposed to mean and so again what we what we have here is that evidence data hard evidence facts are presented being. scented against rhetoric and it's the same thing that we saw

in syria with the chemical weapons attack the united states was on the verge of bombing syria over a pack of lies and over a pack of rhetorical statements this cannot be allowed to stand this is what has to be challenged this is what i am challenging what many of us are challenging it is the narrative that they're constructing that has to be debunked and exploded eric real quickly before we go to the great twenty seconds. the we're living in a virtual reality there is synchrony in most of the western press i looked at the front page of the financial times today and i was amazed that people could talk about r p b and propaganda stick the entire western mindset is being framed by a very coordinated attempt at propaganda and they are going to let me jump in here gentlemen we have to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the ukraine plane tragedy stayed with our theme.

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welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing the downing of flight m.h. seventeen. ok i'm not going to vladimir in cleveland vladimir i'm not a conspiracy theorist and i never allow conspiracy theorists on my program but if i look at the timing of this tragedy in ukraine the port of call government was well in trouble with its a latest offensive in the east it was losing badly soldiers were being encircled it was really bad news and all of a sudden we have this tragedy of killing of civilians on this flight it in this puts the ukraine back on the front page it competes with gaza a lot of sympathy quote unquote for the god can bridge aim i mean this is a good timing in a way for the for the the coup regime that hasn't been achieving too many successes

since february. well the erosion a myth. did achieve significant successes because. the oligarchs created a coalition with declared fascists and through the cool of these fascist took control over the armed forces and police of the ukrainian state with the resources of forty four million people and in the last two months the kiev regime was able to tighten its new. air around the donetsk and lugansk people's republics and the latest news. that another to towns in the north of the donetsk people's republic. by the kiev regime as as of last last night. the. the other think

besides that is that good we have current you know the timing was very suspicious and very convenient and very good news for the kiev regime on the ground our media level and also at the political level because the key of regime the oligarchs and the flesh is generating a good deal of goodwill and sympathy stewart their cause and it also allows them to cost people who rose against the against the terrorists which was the law or the way in which the regime was casting them from the very beginning and so now it. has to present itself as ok we want to go and we are coming to the question of the way this is being spun in media you can take this is the narrative and you can take the same story and you can spin it one hundred different ways there are hundreds and hundreds of people perhaps thousands who have

been killed in bombing raids and the point is that if the plane was brought down by the by the ukrainian resistance by the by the rebels they were trying to protect themselves from aerial bombardment by the kieve regime i do not know who brought down the plane but the reason they were shooting into this someone was shooting into the sky was not for fireworks they were doing it for an attempt at self protection now there are hundreds if not thousands of people who have died in artillery strikes who have died in aerial bombardment in eastern ukraine and those civilians are just as dead as the people who are on the plane the people on the plane deserve all of our sympathy but then so do the people on the ground and we don't get any pretty pictures of mary just married couples and babies who were killed by the the by. massive on floor in eastern ukraine so apparently they're

good good and they're bad and we only get to see the dead that our media wish for us to see ok it could new york one of the things that i'm so troubled about about this whole story is that it's getting down we're getting to the brink here i mean the rhetoric coming out of washington and watching the hysterics in western media as you pointed out where you are. what's the next step i mean warrant because one thing that seems to me it's very misunderstood is that they think they can intimidate vladimir putin in russia to back down but it's not going to happen here and this is what makes it so very dangerous and i worry when i listen to western media the drumbeat to war we all remember it in two thousand and three it's happening again. absolutely and it's happening in a far more dangerous situation in a far more dangerous equation of course i mean it's self-evident why it's so dangerous and i would return to your question of what next and sort of place this

m.h. seventeen incident into a broader narrative that is being spun and that is the narrative of russian aggression and how this is going to translate it will translate in a number of ways one of the ways that it's happened i recently wrote a column about this that the united states and certain factions within the political establishment in the united states are trying to legislate anti russian sentiments are trying to legislate through the congress various ways that the united states is going to be able to aggressively posture in a belligerent fashion against russia the so-called russian aggression prevention act of twenty fourteen sponsored by senator bob corker and co-sponsored by john mccain and a slew of other neo cons they have this bill it is now in committee in the u.s. senate talking about things like permanently basing u.s. miller. terry forces in nato countries such as poland in romania and other places

talking about providing not only military support but financial support political and diplomatic support to ukraine and to every other country that is willing to have any kind of a confrontation with russia of course we know georgia we know many other places in eastern europe where the united states is operating now think about what that means the russian aggression prevention act this means that the united states will have legislation on the books a law that essentially creates a state of war or darn near a state of war with russia now it is almost unthinkable and yet this is the reality and this is what we're facing and it seems to me here sitting in the united states that there is some kind of a collective hysteria and insanity not only surrounding this particular incident but surrounding the entire episode in ukraine and my suspicion is it is because the regime change operation from the very beginning it never went as smoothly as the united states wanted it to the united states has stumbled and bumbled its way since

february twenty first through this entire episode and now they're trying to make up for it. to very interesting theory trying to make up for it because the myth of of russian expansionism the myth of a russian aggression it's all a myth but if you'll never find out in western media ever. we are dealing here with a very good effect of mechanism of projection used by the white house and by the media because we know we have reached a point now where so-called nato expansion. is becoming more and more like nato aggression or aggressive expansion to the gates of moscow itself and the below which eric mentioned indeed that's a serious stuff russian aggression prevention act is basically legislating a state of war with russia and now the tragedy with m.h. seventeen is trying to sell this very idea as you global product

to all nations around the world and especially to the europeans so it's a very serious effect right when the treasure they have the kiev regime for several things for direct presence of nato troops in ukraine and then of in the last few days poroshenko went on record saying that ukraine would be applying for a status symbol to the status of israel or japan with respect to nato and the u.s. which would turn ukraine into a significant nato and for all practical purposes so what we are now seeing is not just rhetoric and company as that's bad enough what we see is actually an escalation and a very dangerous escalation of the war and the conflict with clearly. the direction . and goals ok eric in moscow i can tell you want to jump in go here yeah i don't

think we need to get hysterical about this the war used to be carried out in fighter planes and tanks it no longer is for the very simple reason that the war would last about fifteen minutes there is not going to be a ground war between russia and nato there is a lot of political posturing a lot of the things which are included in this legislation already stuff they are already doing or they're trying to do in which they cannot do without europe coming along in europe does. not an escalation of hostilities at least the senior european countries i think what is much more significant here are the financial measures which are being contemplated certainly which have been enacted by the americans and you notice that the european union today did precisely nothing on the sanctions front the the entire thing was a damp squid maybe they're trying to pressure the french to not sell the second

cruiser and the french are resisting this is basically they're looking for a fig leaf to please their masters in washington and the fig leaf is going to be pretty small now what is very significant is i have just done a major russian banking conference in st petersburg and we had quite a few chinese speakers most of the chinese banks were involved and in a way the current crisis is a challenge it is a threat to russia but it is also a fantastic opportunity because if it wants to have an independent foreign policy and to protect its own interest it must render itself independent of the threat of economic blackmail from countries in the dollar block and talking about isolating russia is laughable ok. most out of time you're going to go to erica new york i agree with your last comment is that you know the u.s.

state department particularly victoria nuland is stumbled all the way through this crisis what's going to stop them from stumbling. well the only thing that's going to stop them is the political calculation that it's an and no win situation for them and unfortunately as it stands right now they're they haven't come to that realization and i think that there's got to be a political price for them to pay and to some degree i think obama and the democrats are going to pay a price for this unfortunately in the wrong sort of way because right wing republicans will say that they were not that they were weak and not aggressive enough which is a complete absurdity and so unfortunately i think that as we go into twenty fourteen midterm elections and the two thousand and sixteen presidential elections there will be a fallout for u.s. policy for obama administration policy all right and you're all right here on this day i wish we had more time but we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in cleveland new york and here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us

here as you see you next time and remember cross talk rules. leave me with. one of the newly prominent like these policies mr putin. pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm researcher.

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coming up on our t.v.'s somber day in the netherlands as the nation receives some of the remains from the laser jet crash r.t. takes you to the emotional ceremony attended by family members of the victims just ahead. and investigators remain in eastern ukraine where flight seventeen went down despite more fighting in the region we'll have an update from the crash site coming up. and the violence in the gaza strip rages on as the death toll climbs with israel's ground invasion talks are underway for a potential cease fire more on the battle ground in gaza later in the show.