come to serbia. shevardnadze now clear things are more depressing than looking into the. wrong time fair especially when it's not by choice but by circumstance is there a global solution to the poverty maybe not but luckily for sure we have. why does poverty persist why are the poor poor and the rich richer over half of the world lives on less than two and a half dollars a day children have no chance caught in this cycle below the poverty line what does it take to tackle poverty can a rising tide lifts all boats or to empower and encourage we speak to a poverty pioneer who began with faith and

a few dollars for. our guest today is mohammad yunus noble peace prize winner of the pioneer of micro finance to financial strategy that's lifted millions out of poverty mr yunus first of all let me start by saying that we're really glad to have you on our program today and i'm just going to go ahead and start with a question that all of our viewers are asking so how soon can worst pay back their depth to your bank is there a risk of being indebted for life to your bank for example. in the bank. to repay the loan is chosen by the board or she could be paid back in one month you can pay back in six months whatever she decides or two years is flexible but the can not conventionally we didn't most of the borrowers like the end will cycle within a one year in a week to the stallman you pay back your loan and then you borrow another one and continue to do that. but what happens at least no question of getting into debt

burden but what happens if you cannot pay the housing there's no question of it's up to her if she said i cannot pay back we didn't fifty two weeks of the one year and i need a few weeks more rescheduling as long as she wants to pay we have no problem we are not here to punish or for the time period we are here to help her so that she can use the money and earn enough money because these are all income generating loan in other words you invest in something which will generate income and you play back the bank in the still you have some money left for you out of your income so the term period is not a big concern for us it's up to you and if you say well i thought i'll pay back in six months but then i in the fifth month they found out that i'll need more time then six months you say it and we reschedule it for another whatever number of months you need because after all you're paying back we have no grudge against you or any any other thing we don't want to make any problem for the borrowers we're

we're not in a penalty mood for anybody we're not punishing anybody for anything we all to or want to be helpful to them so that these defined it convenient they find it helpful to deal with the bank now i know your organization was eventually created to help people but what happens if you're poor or cannot generate income after borrowing money. sure it's possible big businesses fail for example a borrower took a long to buy a car and she did a very good with in the beginning month and the third month the cow died she cannot pay back anymore so we don't punish her for the death of a cow we consult with her without a group members how best to help her and there was a few once in a long would be very happy to do that so boarders come back and say she wants to take a loan for another car so we give her a fresh loan all rule is never forgiven it's not weep this is not written off it is still on the books but your main concern now is to pay back the second lawn and

then on top of that if you pay a little bit more would you go in the first loan that finally gets so in practice the first loan becomes a long term law it doesn't put everybody on her but the second loan becomes a long for another year or so so that we tried to solve the problem we did our brains with rules so the rules should not be to punish or the crimean micro finance bank in itself is a huge institution it is impossible to control all its activities personally surely it's possible that some bad practices could have a carriage in your bank's operations no. possible in your organization you talk about government you talk about big businesses there are some people who'll make wrong thing bad judgment and so on it happens in good mean bank also but compared to any other big large nationwide institution i would say in the bank is almost

free from all those mistakes. in significant number of mistakes happen and we try to rectify it we try to put it in a system where you can detect any fault in any any problem that arises in the system because the system is computerized so that you can check it right from your head office what's going on in the remote villages in the remote branches we work it all over been living every single village in bangladesh has access to them invent microcredit program so we have borrowers all around the country we have eight and a half million borrowers ninety seven percent of them are women they're all connected with our system you are saying that. must mention that the bank is all by the board or so board all lost somebody outsiders she is in control she's the boardroom and she's the owner and she's sensibly presented to sit in the board seat or whoever it making decision is actually her represent did it on and like a body like her so it's not something that some big banks or somebody came in give

you a long and they don't know you you don't know the mystery of like there is a family kind of thing it's eight and a half million women it's family so we worked it as a kind of a organization to be with them and for them. but here it would problems arise that was reported recently that grammy model in south india has in recent years been distorted by then sure capitalism profit makers well of families may face debt spiral forceful debt collections which in some occasions to lead to suicide are you aware of this. yes one thing i want to correct it is not the grameen model if it is a grammy model it will not go into leasing i p o and so on so forth we're not in that business we're not here to make money out or activity so they deviated from the government coming model that's where all the problems took place they wanted to

make it a money making enterprise for shareholders so they want to dick said people say if you lend money to the poor people you can make a lot of money out of it i said that's entirely the opposite of going back system government system is to help poor people poor women particularly to change their life and nobody is trying to make money out of them those who want to make money out of them by misusing them in concept they turn the whole thing into law and shirking direction and we're of course to launch sharking and that's how we were born opposing launchers so we don't want microcredit or green bank to be used to become law that's why we condemned it and we said it said entirely wrong thing they should not even use the word microcredit for themselves let alone i mean bank microcredit so you're saying this kind of things don't happen in bangladesh there are no families that have actually been worse off after borrowing money in grameen that before. there are many many microcredit programs

including grameen bank itself none of them is devoted to making money for any individual person eighty collection of shareholders it's all dedicated to serve the people as i said in grameen bank itself it's owned by the giving them boogers in other instances the indios it's a question of making money from the people doesn't arise in bangladesh those kind of deviation didn't take place it took place in india and on the top of this the one that you are mentioning and we have condemned it very heavily we wrote about it we made press statement. about a similar thing happened in america particularly in mexico through. one of the district issues there rican them there too and they also wanted to make i.p.o. and get people businesspeople excited that you can invest in mexico didn't make a lot of money out of the poor people which is a totally totally wrong message now bangladesh prime minister she has seen

a dismissed you from crimean bank in two thousand and ten citing that you were older then demanded her retirement age of sixty personal how painful was his decision for you and did you retain some of the homes and. retirement. it is very painful because it was done in a kind of inconsiderate way because we were not taken as a government bank government applied the government bends rule on to grameen bank saying that you are not following the government bank's rule of the term and we said this is a bank owned by poor women we have our own rules our old law allows that so this distinction about the age limit doesn't apply to getting bank board is very clear but in any case. i was asked to resign so i resigned and came out of it but

that doesn't mean the whole grameen bank subtly became a foreigner to me this is part of my life it's part of nice part of my family so i feel i belong to the bank family were in a position of decision making or executive position of i'm not but this is my baby and i work together of people who work there is a part of my team but we want to work together since is the very day it was born when he was a little infant we not surely in helping to grow any grown nationwide than our grammy nigeria has displayed all over the world still grew around do that in that position has not changed that relationship or structure so you're somewhat of a senior consultant to the bank now without really having real power in meddling in its affairs right. well i will not said this or sounds very come out she just might english is not a commercial relationship i would just offend i would say i'm

a fan then and i still thought i'd feel part of the team no i don't hold that position within the band but that doesn't mean my view is that we didn't give it back because they look up to me because they know that every single. single methodology love giving bank i build them piece by piece so they look up to me for guidance temperature break now and be right back up with the most terrible homage to ask a little bit more about what happened where main bank why when he ran for president bangladesh and wants to feature of microfinance globally then go and.

fish farms waters do you have a pond to me because. i saw it spread all over norway this is the most toxic food you have in the room. that drowns out in the tissue inquiry furthermore those restrictions. really knows what side the feeling. the pledge play was terrible to say the i'm very hard to make i don't let's again a little money or a plug that never had sex with the target there's no legs let's

play a. little i'm living. a. led police on your arm and a leg. you know. leg leg.

a pleasure to have you with us here on our team today i roll researcher. lead. lead the series of england school plays a try to play players play polo going to be a player named i want to thank you. for the story the changing every minute of the lead up may lead to the last lap the lead. like the lead. was listening to say the molten lead says is close to its limits lead sometimes from nothing which

lead to sleep it isn't going. to look just keep up the story will be just everything you say to be a stage eight looked to be a little but speechless was led to. the lead. welcome back we're talking to muhammad yunus to men behind the idea of micro finance and the founder of grand mean banking vandal abashed good to have you back so just to talk a little bit more about what happened in grameen bank can you promise to have seen i wanted to split the bank into nineteen groups you rejected that idea which probably also played a part in your downfall on top of that bangladesh government has this idea to

actually bring the growing dark under the central banks jurisdiction what's wrong with all of that. well this all came for political reasons there's no concrete issue about that i mean by dividing up the splitting of grameen bank in one thousand pieces only only to say you destroy the bank if somebody wants to destroy the bank that's the best way to do so cut it up chop it off it's gone so that idea even the government to this is known or they are not in favor of chopping it off they will do something else but in any case it is behind everything else looks like there is an attempt to control crimean banks and our previous the law that we started out with makes it very clear that it should be guided by its own board board is the ultimate decision making body but the present government somehow didn't like that so they want to intervene into the activities of crimean banks and

that's why all these nineteen pieces and all control mechanism and changing the law amending the law to into did to the bank all this thinking about in this seem to be not very friendly to the bank itself and any action that is being taken. nobody in the world will say that is in the interest of the bank of the poor people and i'm very worried about it and i tried to draw attention of everybody of this in person they look you have to stop that this is a great to destroy to sion this has been so much good for the people in the particularly poorly families and the poor women in the world that has given so much empowerment to the women in bangladesh and that is becoming a global phenomenon bringing same thing in many many countries almost every single country including russia. has microcredit program so today to go back to.

the origin of the whole idea the grameen bank and to harm it it will be totally painful and alex. but among the shia government has launched legal actions against you for overseas tax evasion you were ousted from being boss of grameen bank for working class retirement age finance minister alleges you have wrongly received tax exemptions while chief of a public institution between two thousand and four and eleven a lot of accusations in a very short period of time where are they coming from and why now. no because the government because the government. finds it appropriate for them to do it for political reasons and all the allegations that you listed again and again been demonstrated we were sent all the information to the public to make sure that they understand it's all baseless there is no ground covered for example the case of tax

evasion. it was decided in the cabinet meeting my texts information should be examined by the texaco it is in its report should be submitted to the text of the cabinet itself out of ministers and they did then they said we've investigated every detail so professor yunus this tax returns and he did it everything correctly we have no problem here is not the mr single penny in texas so we had no problem with that. but when it was not satisfied with the people they sent it back again to make more records to see if they can find something else so this is the kind of thing you take certainties keep coming back and finally in the finally politics of it he says well only only one thing we can say that probably he didn't ask for permission to make this income to speak. to go to foreign countries and make speeches and accept all of the young for that so he needed under

government law he needed permission and then our position is it was never a government bank super question of taking permission never rules at our board never felt that there's something that i need permission from the government and then governments itself are saying. since by two thousand i became six sixty or all after that i'm no longer a barely. managing director so all the seats in the information. government is seeking about income tax is after two thousand so far not a government servant according to them that i was not a government servant after two thousand the question of taking permission from the government doesn't arise at all so again it makes no sense so every single one of them does said i transferred lot of money from grameen bank to my private organization private companies and i made it very clear to the back to the people

in bangladesh that not only i don't have private organization of my or i don't own any single share in any company anywhere so the question of me owning anything doesn't it because i don't own anything so that's very clear so question of transferring money to buy organization doesn't it and then they said you transferred money to another deming organization yes i did because that was the requirement of the agreement between the between the donor organization and gunmen in the region authority we lose money was involved in that mr x. oldtime who is the development minister he made it pretty clear statement he said no whatever was done was done legitimately there was nothing wrong doing it so he made it clear to do so if you think accuses the base of base and behind it yes i mean about a sixty year retirement etc it does look like when it does look like that the

government just want to be out of the picture i'm just trying to figure out why are you represent some kind of threat to them. well you can make a speculation simon the press makes a lot of the speculation anybodies and title to speculation but definitely nothing of the thing that has done looks additional to anybody in the world both within bangladesh and outside bengal this many people believe leaders around the world protested against what is happening to them in bed and many people inside the government inside the bank got this protested even the opposition in bangladesh to . which is a very powerful opposition this it everything this current government is doing to grameen bank if the opposition they come to power they will undo everything they have done because they are done they have done it so wrongly so badly so they will do that nobody is supporting this or cause at all but i know that you in the words of greenbank who are the owners of grameen bank i know that you have been an outspoken critic of successive governments in bangladesh not just this particular

government plus like you said you had you have eight point three million borrowers so that also constitutes some political discourse on its own right in bangladesh it's a lot of people that said that explanation this is they said that probably government sees a political benefit in controlling them in banks so that they can get some political mileage again this is a speculation i cannot say whether whether this is true or not but the fact that this is an organization which is about one fourth of the total population of bangladesh is within the main bank so we are linked with the one fourth of the population which has one fourth of the voters are included within giving banks so differently politicians could look into it in that way did today prevail but again the same in logic you might say then government should be the friend the grameen bank the confronting grameen bank so it is that doesn't make sense why did it he did all those people who are in germany and then but taking

a read their rights when you take away their rights they won't be your best your friend they will be forced to you so politically doesn't look like a very same step on the part of the government so people in bangladesh think that you are somewhat of a hero plus you disagree with many of the things these governments were doing why didn't you run for president yourself. well i don't want to be in politics that i've made it very clear again and again in two thousand and seven when there is a vacant political. many people in bangladesh try to perceive me to join politics so that down under pressure i said ok i'll join politics and i'll create a political party but we didn't ten weeks i came back and said no i'm not going to join politics and i'm not going to create a political party and since then i never even talked thought about joining politics or creating a political party of my own and i don't whatever i'm doing is so much important. to

concentrate on that if you get into politics and bang with this politics it's not a very exciting life in terms of. corruption in terms of the we do and environment of politics is i thought this is not the kind of environment that i can work with so i work in a way where i see transparency where i see feel comfortable and i don't feel that much comfortable in the other side so i wanted to stay away from that ok how will the possible demise of grameen bank in bangladesh effect its followers around the world. well first of all i don't think they'll be demise of grameen bank they'll be damages of grameen bank not demand demise of grameen bank i mean many of the very well established organization is a very. strong organization financially strong organization institutionally with the strong organization i don't think anybody can bring demise

to it but don't lots of harm in the short term can be done. and then. our job and meaning my job and my colleagues the team that build going to mean back in the bottle of themselves is to go back and fix it and make sure that it become not only strong it becomes stronger organization and i'm sure. we will get support from the public we'll get support global support and i want supporters i wonder at miter sit on the world would be proud of us that's a long time we have for today our guest was nobel prize winner when pioneer of microfinance bangladesh economist the hammock you know it's thank you for watching and cheering for the next edition of sophie and.

you know where you. come.

in. if. i do it near shush awash in media. are you going to be of the spirit yet that is allowed the we don't need it so the money to her also puts us all spoke with. a new way to keep having our own right. let's see if there's a. solution for. that is the.

norm i'm going to cook. iran like syria has been very harshly on a constant that. isn't justified the aim is not pursuing the. raising the spectrum of pursuit of the irrelevant government leader one you know who. is developing nuclear weapons. they want to see you being removed for. the story. we would be stupid not to take you live.

in the thick of things you can jump in anytime you want to. look it rightly see. and i think.

the. russia's foreign minister says the groundless allegations against moscow over ukraine need to stop but insists there will be no tit for tat response to any western sanctions. confirms a military assault to take control of the malaysian airliner crash site is now under way despite earlier declaring it a no conflict zone. a mother and child shelled in a park the latest graphic images to come out of the region at least thirteen people were killed when the streets of goal of became the new target for kiev's artillery . the u.n. security council calls for me.