accident and not quite a unique wanted that just this year in both oklahoma and my native ohio there have been botched executions due to complications with lethal injection one judge alex kozinski who voted to give would a stay of execution due to the questionable nature of lethal injection drugs said that the good old firing squad would be a lot more humane and his opinion eight or ten large caliber bullets fired at close range inflict massive damage causing instant death every time i think lethal injection is popular not for the executed but for society as judge kozinski said shooting someone in the head with a machine gun is instant death so why don't they use the firing squad because that would be messy and raise questions quietly injecting people way from prying public eyes allows the dirty deed to be done without the hassle of ugly news footage i think that it says something odd about society that we must kill the wicked and murderous but could you do it in a bloodless way completely out of sight i don't want to lose my appetite but that's just my opinion.

please write the simply. first strip. and i would think that you're. an army corps player. and can still. be in the. hell i'm going to send people to hell i'm selfish arrogant saying no to keep things are more depressing than. it's. fair especially when it's not

by choice but by circumstance is there a global solution to this maybe not but luckily for sure we have. why does poverty persist why are the poor poor and the rich richer over half of the world lives on less than two and a half dollars a day children have no chance caught in this cycle below the poverty line what does it take to tackle poverty can a rising tide lifts all boats kind of to empower and encourage we speak to an anti-poverty pioneer who began with faith and a few dollars for. our guest today is mohammad yunus noble peace prize winner the pioneer of micro finance to financial strategy that's lifted millions out of poverty mr yunus first of all let me start by saying that we're

really glad to have you on our program today and i'm just going to go ahead and start with a question that all of our viewers are asking so how soon can worst pay back their dept to your bank is there a risk of being indebted for life to your bank for example. in the bank. to repay the loan is chosen by the board or she could pay back in one month she can pay back in the six month three months whatever she decides or two years is flexible but the can not conventionally we didn't bang most of the borrowers like the end will cycle within a one year in a week to the stallman you pay back your loan and then you borrow another one and continue to do that. but what happens and it's no question of getting into debt burden but what happens if you cannot pay the obviously there's no question of up to her if she said i cannot pay back we didn't fifty two weeks of the one year and i need a few weeks weeks more schedule it as long as she wants to pay we have no problem

we're not here to punish her for the time period we're here to help her so that she can use the money and earn enough money because these are all income generating loan in other words you invest in something which will generate income and you play back the bank in the stilly have some money left for you out of your income so it's time period is not a big concern for us it's up to you and if you say well i thought i'll pay back in six months but then i in the fifth month they found out that i'll need more time then six months you say it and reschedule it for another whatever number of months you need because after all you're paying back we have no grudge against you or any any other thing we don't want to make any problem for the borrowers we're we're not in a penalty mood for anybody we're not punishing everybody for anything we all to or want to be helpful to them so that it's defined it convenient they find it helpful to deal with the bank now i know your organization was eventually created to help

people but what happens if you're poor cannot generate income after borrowing money . sure it's possible big businesses fail for example a borrower took a long to buy a car and she did a very good with in the beginning month and the third month the cow died she cannot pay back anymore so we don't punish her for the death of a cow we consult with her without a group members how best to help her and there was a few once in a long will be very happy to do that so boarders come back and say she wants to take a loan for another car so we give her a fresh loan all rule is never forgiven it's not weep this is not written off it is still on the books but your main concern now is to pay back the second lawn and then on top of that if you pay a little bit more would you go in the first loan that finally gets so in practice the first loan becomes a long term law it doesn't put everybody on her but the second loan becomes

a long for another year or so so that we tried to solve the problem we did our brains with rules the rules should not be to punish or the crimean micro finance bank in itself is a huge institution it is impossible to control all its activities personally surely it's possible that some bad practices could have a carrot in your bank's operations no. possible in your organization you talk about government you talk about big businesses there are some people who would make long thing bad judgment and so on it happens in good mean bank also but compared to any other big large nationwide institution i would say. bank is almost free from all those mistakes. in significant number of mistakes happen and we try to rectify it we try to put in a system where you can detect any fault in any any problem that arises in the system because the system is computerized so that you can check it right from your

head office what's going on in the remote villages in the remote branches we work it all over again living every single village in bangladesh has access to them invent microcredit program so we have all around the country we have eight and a half million borrowers ninety seven percent of them are women they're all connected with our system of saying that. must mention that the bank is all by the board so burrill lost somebody outsiders she is in control she's the boardroom and she's the owner in the sense of the president to sit in the board seats or whoever would make a decision is actually her represent did it on and like a body like her so it's not something that some big banks or somebody came in give you a long and they don't know you you don't know the mystery of like there is a family kind of thing it's eight and a half million women it's family so we worked it as a kind of a organization to be with them and for them. but here it would problems

arise that was reported recently that grammy model in south india has in recent years been distorted by venture capitalism profit makers will of families may face death spiral forceful debt collections which in some occasions have let to suicide are you aware of this. yes one thing i want to correct it is not the grameen model if it is a grammy model it will not go into leasing i p o and so on so forth we are not in that business we are not here to make money out or activity so they deviated from the government governing model that's when all the problems took place they wanted to make it a money making enterprise for shareholders so they want to dick said people saying if you lend money to the poor people you can make a lot of money out of it i said that's an entirely the opposite of going back system government system is to help poor people poor women particularly to change

their life and nobody is trying to make money out of them those who want to make money out of them by misusing them in concept they turn the whole thing into law sharking direction and we are of course to loan sharking and that's how we were born opposing launchers so we don't want microcredit or green bank to be used to become law that's why we condemned it and we said the second talley's wrong thing they should not even use the word microcredit for themselves let alone get mean bank microcredit so you're saying this kind of things don't happen in bangladesh there are no families that have actually been worse off after borrowing money in grameen that before. there are many many microcredit programs including grameen bank itself none of them is devoted to making money for any individual person collection of shareholders it's all dedicated to serve the people as i said in giving back it so it's on by the giving them boogers in other

instances the indios it's a question of making money from the people doesn't arise in bangladesh those trend of deviation didn't take place it took place in india and on the top of this the one that you are mentioning and we have condemned it very heavily we wrote about it we made press statement. about a similar thing happened said the elected america particularly in mexico through. one of the district issues the rican them there too and they also wanted to make i.p.o. and get people businesspeople excited that you can invest in mexico didn't make a lot of money out of the poor people which is a totally totally wrong message now bangladesh prime minister she has seen a dismissed you from crimean bank in two thousand and ten citing that you were older then demanded her retirement age of sixty personal how painful was his decision for you and did you retain some of the homes and. retirement.

it is very painful because it was done in a kind of inconsiderate way because we were not taken as a government bank government applied the government bends rule onto grameen bank saying that you are not following the government bank's rule of the term and we said this is a bank owned by poor women we have our own rules our old law allows that so this distinction about the age limit doesn't apply to getting bank board is very clear of that but in any case. i was asked to resign so i resigned and came out of it but that doesn't mean the whole grameen bank subtly became a foreigner to me this is part of my life it's part of nice part of my family so i feel i belong to the bank family were there and i'm in a position of decision making or executive position of i'm not but this is my baby

and i work together of people who work there is a part of my team but we always work together since is the very day it was born when he was a little infant we not surely in helping to grow any grown nationwide all over the world still grew around do that in that position has not changed that relationship or structure so you're somewhat of a senior consultant to the bank now without really having real power in meddling in its affairs right. well i will not sit this. might be just not a commercial relationship i was just a friend i would say have a friend and i still thought to feel part of the team no i don't hold the position we did in the back but that doesn't mean my view is that he didn't go back because they look up to me because they know the. signal but the

bank. piece by piece so they look up to me for guidance. of our share break now we'll be right back when it's term homage here it is to ask a little bit more about what happened and what i mean bank why when he ran for president bangladesh and wants to feature of microfinance globally don't go away. to. people. like you are

going to show everybody. how well. you know why but. sometimes for nothing. just you still can still be. if you see a stage eight looked to be slim but speech was lists plenty of. live live.

live live. live live. cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want to live.

well if you're going to the market i want. you to feel. like i have you with us here on t.v. today i roll researcher.

welcome back we're talking to muhammad yunus to man behind the idea of micro finance and the founder of grand main banking bangladesh good to have you back so just to talk a little bit more about what happened and grab me a bag a new premise i have seen a way to split the bank into nineteen groups he rejected that idea which probably also played a part in your downfall on top of that government has this idea to actually bring to grow i mean bargain to the central bank's jurisdiction what's wrong with all of that. well this all came for political reasons there's no concrete issue about that i mean by dividing up the splitting of grameen bank in one thousand pieces only only to say you destroy the bank if somebody wants to

destroy the bank that's the best way to do so cut it up chop it off it's gone so that idea even the government to this is not all they are not in favor of chopping it off they will do something else but in any case it's behind everything else looks like there is an attempt to control crimean banks and our previous the law that we started out with makes it very clear that it should be guided by its own board board is the ultimate decision making body but the present government somehow didn't like that so they want to intervene into the activities of crimean banks and that's why all these nineteen pieces and all control mechanism and changing the law amending the law to intrude into the bank all this thinking about and this seem to be not very friendly to the bank itself in any action that is being taken. nobody in the world will say that is in the interest of the bank of the poor people

and i'm very worried about it and i tried to draw attention of everybody of this in person they look you have to stop that this is agreed to this to to sion this is being so much good for the people in the particularly people in families and the poor women in the world that has given so much empowerment to the women in bangladesh and that is becoming a global phenomenon bringing same thing in many many countries almost every single country including russia. has microcredit program so today to go back to. the origin of that whole idea the crimean bank and to harm it it will be totally painful and alex. but a bungled actually government has launched legal actions against you for overseas tax evasion you were ousted from being boss of grameen bank for working fast retirement age finance minister alleges you have wrongly received tax exemptions while chief of a public institution between two thousand and four and eleven

a lot of accusations in a very short period of time where are they coming from and why now. no because the government because the government. finds it appropriate for them to do it for political reasons and all the allegations that you listed again and again been demonstrated we are sent all the information to the public to make sure that they understand it's all baseless there is no ground to vote for example the case of tax evasion. it was decided in the cabinet meeting that my texts information should be examined by the text of qualities in its report should be submitted to the text of the cabinet itself out of ministers and they did then they said we've investigated every detail so process of innocence tax returns and he did it everything correctly we have no problem with he has not mr single penny in texas so we have no problem

with that. but when it was not satisfied with the people they sent it back again to make more inquiries to see if they can find something else so this is the kind of thing you take certainties keep coming back and finally in the finally politics of it he says well only only one thing we can say that probably he didn't ask for permission to make this income to speak. to go to foreign countries and make a speech is an accept on our young for that so he needed under government law he needed permission. then our position is it was never a government bank super question of taking permission never rules at our board never felt that there's something that i need permission from the government and then governments itself are saying that since by two thousand i became six sixty or all after that i'm no longer barely. managing director

so all b c c the information. government is seeking about income tax is after two thousand so far not a government servant according to them that i was not a government servant after two thousand the question of taking permission from the government doesn't erase it all so again it makes no sense so every single one of them does said i transferred lot of money from grameen bank to my private organization private companies and i made it very clear to the back to the people in bangladesh that not only i don't have private organization of my own i don't own any single share in any company anywhere so the question of me owning anything doesn't it is because i don't own anything so that's very clear so question of transferring money to buy organization doesn't it and then they say do you transfer that money to another damning organization yes i did because that was the equipment of the agreement between the between the donor organization and gummi men

in the region authority we lose money was involved in that mr x. oldtime who is the development minister he made it pretty clear statement he said no whatever was done was done legitimately there was nothing wrong doing it so he made it clear to do so if you think accuses the base of base and behind it yes i mean about a sixty year retirement except it does look like when it does look like that the government just wants you out of the picture i'm just trying to figure out why are you represent some kind of threat to them. well you can make a speculation some in the press makes a lot of this speculation anybody's entitle to speculation but definitely nothing of the thing that has done looks additional to anybody in the world what would in bangladesh and outside bangladesh many people believe leaders around the world protested against what is happening to them in bank and many people inside the

government inside the bangladesh protested even the opposition in bangladesh to. which is a very powerful opposition this it everything this current government is doing to grameen bank if the opposition they come to power they will undo everything they have done because they are done they have done it so wrongly so badly so they will do that nobody is supporting this cause at all but i know that you in the words of greenbank who are the owners of grameen bank i know that you have been an outspoken critic of successive governments in bangladesh not just this particular government plus like you said you had you have eight point three million borrowers so that also constitutes some political forest on its own right in bangladesh it's a lot of people that said that explanation this is they said that probably government sees a political benefit in controlling them in banks so that they can get some political mileage and again this is a speculation i cannot say whether whether this is true or not but the fact that

this is an organization which is about one fourth of the total population of bangladesh is within government bank so we are linked with the one fourth of the population which moves one fourth of the voters are included within giving banks so differently politicians could look into it in that way did today prevail but again the same logic you might say then government should be be friending grameen bank credit them confronting coming back so you get that doesn't make sense why did it all those people who are in germany in bank but taking a read their rights when you take you in their eyes they won't be your best your friend they will be opposed to you so politically doesn't look like a very same step on the part of the government so people in bangladesh think that you're somewhat of a hero plus you disagree with many of the things these governments were doing why didn't you run for president yourself. well i don't want to be in politics that

i've made it very clear again and again in two thousand and seven when there is a vacant political. many people in bangladesh try to perceive me to join politics so that down under pressure i said ok i'll join politics and i'll create a political party but we didn't ten weeks i came back and said no i'm not going to join politics and i'm not going to create a political party and since then i never even thought about joining politics or creating a political party of my own and i don't whatever i'm doing is so much important. to concentrate on that if you get into politics and by militia politics is not a very exciting life in terms of. corruption in terms of the we. can environment the politics is i thought this is not the kind of environment that i can work with so i work in a way where i see transparency where i see feel comfortable with it i don't feel

that much comfortable in the other side so i wanted to stay away from that ok how will the possible demise of grameen bank in bangladesh effect its followers around the world. well first of all i don't think they'll be demise of grameen bank they'll be damages of grameen bank not demand demise of grameen bank i mean many of the very well established organization is a very. strong organization financially strong organization institutional even a strong organization i don't think anybody can bring demise to it but don't lots of harm in the short term can be done. and then. our job and meaning my job and my colleagues the team that bill's going to mean back in the bottle of themselves is to go back and fix it make sure that it become not only strong it become a stronger organization and i'm sure. we will get support from the public we'll get

support global support and i want supporter of the order at miter to sit on the world would be proud of us that's a long time we have for today our guest was nobel prize winner when pioneer of microfinance bangladesh economist behind the genius thank you for watching and cheering for the next edition of sophie in kind of. external where you.

come. it will get. it. i'm abby martin the stories we cover here we're not going to hear any right

other big story extra headlines and talk there's a reason they don't want to do not. want to tell us that we should be completely free now let's break the set. so the minute you. knew he'd never. let you do you. suppose.

our headlines this hour an international police team is forced to turn back on their way to the malaysian plane crash site in eastern ukraine as heavy combat or fresh attempt to reach the scene. the number of civilians killed in army shelling grows with an entire family including a small child among the latest to fall victim to the bombs which are targeting residential areas in the city. russian's foreign minister is. going to impose to talk measures in response to the ever growing clutch of sanctions from the west. and also this hour medics say seven children.