same with the news he was developing nuclear weapons and. he said he did they want to see these are being. made and form. we would be stupid not to take. these. below and welcome the cross-talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle in the crosshairs as israel appears to be preparing for still another assault on the gaza strip on this edition of cross talk we asked how it got to this point and what israel hopes to achieve.

to cross out the assault on gaza i'm joined by my guest dan r.l. in washington he's a scholar in residence at the center for israel studies at the american university in new york we have norman finkelstein he's a political analyst and author and in amsterdam we crossed him when rabbani he is a senior fellow at the institute for palestine studies are gentlemen cross-talk roles in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it norman if i can go to you first here how did we get to this point israel says it began when hamas kidnapped and murdered three israeli teens what's your take. and i think if you don't mind i'd rather have. a question because he's closer to the situation there ok due deference when we go ahead. well the fact of the matter is that so far we still don't know who abducted and killed these three israeli

use israel immediately blame thomas and we also now know that these really government suppressed evidence had very early on that these three youths had been killed in order to claim that it was seeking to resolve the hostage situation and use that as a pretext to launch a military rampage throughout the west bank from from the far north to to the far south while hamas which usually almost immediately claims responsibilities claims are sponsibility for its actions and if anything exaggerates its activities as this time stated that it has no involvement in this incident so i think we need to look at what israel's broader objectives or in terms of using this incident as a pretext ok dan says it's a pretext you're it were your reply to that well first of all. was behind the

kidnapping of those three innocent youngsters who were brutally murdered by hamas operatives there's clear evidence point of fact that hamas is behind it and hamas is also driving a reckless policy at the moment israel is fighting a just war hamas initiated this conflict it started this conflict no other country in the world will tolerate can tolerate would tolerate such an attack on its cities towns civilians and israel's doing its utmost to protect its its citizens ok norman would you like to reply to that just war. well first of all there is no evidence at this point that hamas was responsible even the u.s. state department which typically apologizes for any and every israeli action the u.s. state department was asked just two days ago on july ninth do you have evidence that hamas was behind this and they said as of now we don't have evidence in any event what's clear is that prime minister netanyahu then used to exploit this incident

for political purposes and as i'm sure that is aware it was all over the israeli press and it was said candidly it was said with forthrightly that prime minister netanyahu was using the incident in order to destroy hamas and because he wanted to dismantle the unity government and this is fairly typical of the israeli government it's what the israeli political scientist in their yard neve called these relief of palestinian peace offensives in this case hamas formed the unity government with the palestinian authority on the terms that were put forth by the u.s. and the u.a.e. and the e.u. hamas accepted those terms and now netanyahu was cornered he was going to be forced to negotiate and so he does what israel historically has always done it tries to

nip these. powers tinian piece offensives in the bud in this case by attacking hamas and hoping and praying to evoke some sort of reaction then would you like to reply to that. yes please hamas initiated this conflict it story was barrage of rockets and missiles on israeli towns and villages it is constantly it was offered by israel a calm for calm deal that rejected the noni didn't reject the offer of a one on an aggressive campaign and again no other country in the. the world would sit idly by and just watch a barrage of rockets into its territory and not respond with blood they were put in sit idly by if moscow and st petersburg would be under the threat of rockets and missiles are you sure you that he wouldn't and so other other leaders in the western world such as countering merkel holand obama. idly by and the leader of

israel the government of israel has a commitment to its people to protect them to insure safety and stability and that's what israel is doing at the moment is ok all right i want to i want to read i want norman and myleene to react to that movie would you like to react to that because all of the leaders in all of the countries that dan just mentioned i mean they don't have a they don't have under captivity under blockade under siege one point six million people go ahead maureen well. what then is presenting us is just a series of slogans and unsupported assertions this idea that. israel is offering a ceasefire in fact netanyahu is on record today and you can do. this with having that he has no interest in a cease fire at that point well hamas has stated very clearly. that it is prepared but that israel is unprepared to go so we can either base our positions in analysis

and conclusions on on reality or we can just throw around meaningless slogans and unsupported assertions which isn't going to get us anywhere really ok norman jump in you want to jump in please do. well. dan says that israel's doing with any other country in the world would do first of all as he mentioned among the leaders who would do something he mentioned prime minister cameron david cameron in the u.k. cameron himself who is a great friend of israel a great supporter of israel he himself has described gaza as a prison camp and then you have to ask yourself what rights the people under occupation have to resist occupation and here the international law is very clear the international law says number one and i hope down will respond specifically to the point i'm making now international law says number one occupier has no right

under international law to suppress a struggle for self-determination that is to say that israel has no right whatsoever if the palestinians are resisting the occupation israel has no right whatsoever whatsoever under international law to use force in order to suppress the palestinian struggle for self-determination the international law is a little bit more ambiguous on the rights of people on the occupation to use force but most scholars agree that they do have that right so as a broad general statement the palestinians are exercising their right under gaza's done under israeli occupation power gaza is not under occupation gaza since two thousand and five of course. in two thousand five. hundred has not returned uprooted soldiers from gaza israel is not in does that i'm very sorry to clarify that ok don't say nothing against i want to clarify exactly

they're moving in israel is not in gaza please react to that statement. gaza israel removed its military bases and its settlements from within the gaza strip that's true but i believe it's the position of even the international committee of the red cross that gaza remains occupied territory for among other reasons that israel still controls the airspace. the territorial waters most of the boundaries of the gaza strip israel has been imposing a punishing seven year blockade of the gaza strip and so it's quite possible and i presume there are other examples of as well that you can control and occupy a territory without being physically within it it's a form of indirect rule if you will and perhaps even more importantly israel almost

will launches these kinds of armed assaults. on the gaza strip as well which is you know and in that sense the legitimacy of israel's actions is also. very much open to question particularly in terms of international law as norman just explained. ok dan do you want to react to a security council yes because because the u.n. security council adopted the palmer commission report back in september twentieth levon which clearly states that the israeli naval blockade on gaza is legal and so . norman can argue from today until tomorrow that does not the case but the naval blockade of gaza by israel is legal and has been. recognized as such by the united nations ok norman do you want to react to that. you know really

a completely different issue i'm not going to get into the fact i'm i'm not going to get into the factual details now but for those who are interested in a small window. and she said this for some two counts number one as he did correctly say the palmer commission only dealt with the naval blockade it did not deal with the land blockade number two the un security council never approved the palmer commission report that a report was commissioned by banking moon it had nothing to do with the other branches of the united nations but let's get to the bigger issue then says two things dan says first of all he says gaza is none not under occupation well i have a question for you then you mention prime minister cameron not me you mention prime minister david cameron so when david cameron referred to gaza as a prison who are the prison guards who is he referring to when you refer to god so

as a giant prison camp who are the guards of that person can israel senior assassinations or not just this was a sure you know is your arm didn't. place is keeping citizens doesn't reasons you're on terror you're on your mind so then you're on television don't make a full of yourself before the whole world you know i'm not taking the families of certain people is that putting all this point gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on gaza stay with r.t. . we've. plucked

right from the scene. of the first strike. and i would think picture. on a recorder splitter. and instantly. be in the. odd. bird. to show no where you. could. meet. her.

play. a path. to see. what she had in fish farms waters. you have the palm of me because. i saw you spread all over norway is the most cultured food you have in the whole world. furthermore restriction.

welcome back across the uk where all things considered. we're discussing the israel palestine conflict. ok when i go back to you in amsterdam on the administration says quote it supports israel's right to defend itself against these rockets how do you reply to that. well i think very much along the lines that norman has already replied which is that this is not about the right of a sovereign state to defend itself it's really about whether

a state has the right to occupy colonize and dispossess another people i mean the idea that entire families are being blown to smithereens by the israeli air force in the gaza strip and the best that the obama administration can come up with is that israel has an absolute and unconditional right to self-defense which washington will defend uncritically. morally obscene is really the first in all the term that comes to mind here ok dan israel says it always is being mindful of civilians when it attacks in gaza and it let's face it historically it happens quite often if every few years but the death toll the civilian death toll is always quite high so what kind of precision is that you know let me it's a great question peter and i think that it's important to remember in the last three days more than four hundred fifty rockets and missiles were launched into

israel into cities towns villages and thank god for that are and don't miss our system that was able to intercept them if not who have been how do you answer the question that israel do and so israel during this time has to respond to this barrage of rockets and missiles and during this entire conflict first of all israel has been continuing humanitarian assistance into the gaza strip israel when it attacks it attacks surgically strikes at targets which are clearly connected to hamas tries to avoid targeting the civilian population actually warns civilians by dispersing leaflets by calling the homes by initiating announcements to stay away from harm from harm's way so israel is doing its utmost to. keep this attack on hamas and not on the citizens of gaza ok norman no matter how you cut it i mean if you get a leaflet or not this is collective punishment this is collective punishment and

that is illegal under international law norman go ahead. let's look at the picture on the israeli side how many people have been killed zero there hasn't even been a single reported injury from these so-called barrages of theory of gaza rocket attacks on israel there has been zero casualties and apparently so far no reported injuries as a matter of fact i haven't even read a report of a building being damaged yet in fact i face more danger this past weekend when i went to the coney island fireworks no israelis have felt experience suffered from the gaza attacks now let's look at the gaza side site so far sixty nine people have been killed of those sixty nine sixty have been civilians

so you have approximately a total ratio of seventy the see a row civilians sixty to zero does that sound like a war now he says it's because of the higher you don't like when you first of all we have been there who look and so we also have a. right we don't have a city we don't have citizen the army of these. catering for human she has to become human shields for its operation and it's a launching rockets let's have some schools. and proposed homes so there is one when you hit one run fight such a good one innocent people are in harm's way unfortunately regretfully sometimes or heard israel is doing its utmost not to allow this day and as the rights of the law alright alright alright alright but most gentle they don't talk over each other go ahead norman and i want to go to move mean ok go ahead an army ten year ok one

second then you're reading from the wrong script you're reading from the script from the two thousand eight hundred nine war israel hasn't even called about children not it's not hard when it came to you live in hospitals that's that's your that's the old script now you're using the human shield scripts so let's hear this is very common israel has freely admit is fresh over the yes ok then. a fresh evidence sure you just pulled it out of your pocket let's look at the evidence. shows that it's targeting ok. israel has freely admitted it's targeting the homes of hamas militants the civilian homes that's not legal under international law even if you give a warning even if you tap on the roof how would you like it than if i tapped on your roof or tower ballroom gave you of warning on a cell phone i'm going to blow up you know how it is miss such as you know my until

i get it i did not die until i had to go through meaning in amsterdam. it's very interesting this time around because. go ahead go ahead ahead jumping. yeah i mean dan is again just presenting us with a series of meaningless slogans and on support a disservice ins including ones that is normal as pointed out even israel is not making and this idea that it's somehow legitimate to blow up someone's house simply because you've indicated you're going to do it and if the person's wife and children are murdered well that means they're human shields by the same logic has announced that it's going to seek to lob missiles at all of israel isn't that considered fair warning considering that virtually every israeli family has a member who serves in the israeli military i mean you know the civilian

noncombatants are either legitimate or illegitimate targets but to take a tribal approach to this which which is to say that it's legitimate to murder palestinian civilians but it's illegitimate for israeli civilians to be targeted well that has absolutely no moral and no political standing one either takes a clear position on. the protection for civilian noncombatants in conflict or one doesn't and if one doesn't i think down should have the decency to admit that he values different human life differently according to his political preferences ok dan would you like to reply to that. to remind us where were your you know the two other participants norman and when the sound like they came from mars not from planet earth and what we're facing here is a situation which israel is under

a barrage of rockets initiated by hamas which refused to sue speier which continues to use homeschools to fire at israelis which is cynically trying to raise the casualty not number of to see if there is a person or a few who are its own for on one of her own purposes last week would know it's last week when israel offered calm for calm hamas only rejected it but went on aggressively to launch continued rocket turps so this is what i'm talking about so let's be let's all play along and see what we're talking well not pretend but. that's what i wanted to please only a few more reading are going to go and play along ok that's the problem ok when we knew wanted to say something go ahead ok. go ahead. you know why should i play along with with pure fantasy. the fact of the matter is you want only us to consult today's israeli press where netanyahu states explicitly that israel has no interest

in a cease fire and that a cease fire is not on the agenda and massa stating that there is no one to negotiate a ceasefire with now one can either accept that and in dance case seek to justify it because apparently his political principle is that what it anything and everything israel does is right or you know one can start making things up and putting forth these these increasingly bald assertions and bringing in mars and earth and what not but you know facts are facts and at some point people have to deal with them ok norman it's slightly change gears here this time around hamas doesn't have a lot of allies. when we look at egypt and its other arab donors say they're alone standing alone right now and you know it looks like tel aviv sees this is an opportunity hamas is isolated the entire middle east is aflame right now it's an

opportunity for tel of eve to get rid of their greatest nemesis to. drive but you have to understand why hamas is their greatest nemesis amasses their greatest now mrs because they formed a unity government with the palestinian authority hamas is their greatest nemesis because of hamas agreeing to the conditions set forth by the e.u. and the us for negotiations hamas is their greatest enemy because the us and the e.u. agreed to negotiate with the new unity government hamas is their greatest enemy because hamas was so weak as you correctly put it hamas was so weak that it was now being forced in a position where together with the palestinian authority it would negotiate a reasonable settlement of the conflict and that's the thing that netanyahu like israel's leaderships in the past have always dreaded that's why they coined the

phrase these palestinian peace offensives israel doesn't know what to do when the palestinians are ready to negotiate so it does what it always does hamas pounds then it is going home on this is. shared in gauging so now you are going to get on and i want to give the last word to dan dan twenty seconds i want to be fair go ahead. hamas is a terror. now russia's ambassador to the un vitaly churkin is right now holding a press briefing let's listen in to what he has to say financed terrorist institutions and i hope that those who are engaged in this kind of practice he had that but in mind of the security council that this amounts to very serious

transgressions of various resolutions of the security council and of course there is a more general call. financed terrorist organizations through donations and or other ways subsidizing the activities of the terrorist organizations operating in syria and iraq we believe that this is an important statement now from the security council and the second issue which i wanted to address is that of investigation of the malaysian airliner on the disaster was happened on july seventeenth. and you will recall that the security council of passed a resolution twenty one sixty six on the investigation of that disaster. of that resolution provided for the immediate end of fighting in the area of the conflict and unfortunately of the crash but unfortunately this is not what we have seen happening unfortunately the fighting continued and also you will recall that

president bush and co promise that there will be no activity of ukrainian military within the radius of forty kilometers that did continue and that the fighting did not allow international investigators and those who are supposed to accompany them for the purposes of protection to reach the crites crash site so all this is extremely disturbing and today. the statements by some ukrainian security officials that it was their intention to take over the site militarily that of course will be amount to a direct violation of resolution twenty one sixty six i was very encouraged to hear just minutes ago that. the dutch both of the foreign minister of the netherlands and australia under stand and if they have had a meeting with president pastrana and finally the dutch were able to sign the agreement with the key of authorities on the presence of their investigators at the

crash site so the combination of the signing of that agreement and the promise which we understand once again was given to them of the. on the end of fighting in the in the area would allow the investigators to come to the site as quickly as possible and would allow them to take care of the bodies which remain to be there and would allow them to to collect the pieces and to launch the next stage of this very important investigation. president please ambassador churkin thank you very much on behalf of our sponsor for the pretty thing i'm pamela falk from c.b.s. the question is there were u.s. intelligence has showed some information about rockets from russia going into ukraine in the last few days and they also there was

a report that president obama was going to share with ukraine government information about the surface to air missiles has a you've complained in the past that there hasn't been on the malaysian flight there hasn't been any intelligence sharing has there been and do you have any more older models i'm aware of and i wouldn't got to jude to have a look at the press conference which one minister leveled off gave today in moscow where he reiterated the frustration of the lack of exchange of information and of course were very open as he indicated he retreated in his press conference to various forms of observation we invited or you see observers to the two border crossings controlled by russia and after some procrastination from the ukrainians the americans and the british you know we see finally they are coming there we. indicate that it will be open to all we see using various technical means in order to sort of control observe the rest of the border with ukraine.