in fish farms waters do you have a pond to me because. i saw you spread all over and over is the most toxic food you have a new will draw such drama zones in the judicial inquiry furthermore those restrictions . i don't know that. really knows what's inside the feeling of fish. i asked ray. in december two thousand and ten. more likely to be raped in college than in the real world. and unthinkable did that to each other when they knew each

other i thought rape was a stranger in the precious. girl complaining about the son of an alumni gives millions of dollars to the school why listen to somebody who's going to lose money at the school of schools that make money based decisions are much more common than they would ever admit publicly. or even reasonable. as a. hello and welcome to crossfire all things are considered on peter lavelle as russian the west slowly turn away from each other the term pivot to asia takes on greater meaning and importance essentially this pivot is. all about china and its continued

rise on the global stage this all translates into a multi-polar world that challenges washington's doctrine of full spectrum dominance. cross-talk the multipolar world i'm joined by my guest rodney shakespeare in london he is a political and economic democrat and co-founder of the global justice movement in washington we have a son aurora he is a independent defense consultant as well as a specialist in great power relations and trans national security and here in moscow we cross to mark for boulder he is a senior lecturer in researcher at moscow state university or gentlemen cross-talk rules in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much appreciate romney if i can go to you first. ukraine it was the. a moment that people are focusing on but the united states and. its allies have been turning away from russia or never embraced russia since the end of the cold war and

we see the two kind of moving in different directions i mean i can tell you for sure a lot of people here have had enough dealing with the west because well it's not doesn't keep to its own values and put it that way so what does it mean to you when russia looks to the east i mean are we moving towards a legitimate multi-polar or order well you should have said russia and many other countries are moving away from the west. the economic power is shifting away from the west america has exported millions of jobs and the dollar is going to some point it's going to crash on the political front the situation is horrific the usa has bombed thirty civilian populations since nine hundred forty five it's the involved in the overthrow and the successful overthrow of fifty governments and if they democratic the usa gets in there and overthrow some one thinks of the rand in one nine hundred fifty three one thinks of say the congo in one thousand nine hundred eighty three alleged. day in chile in one thousand and seventy three and

then look at the u.s.a.'s moral authority its caps i mean look at the latest outrage it was actually michelle obama rightly saying bring back our two hundred or three hundred kidnapped girls but she forgot to say that her husband and his immediate predecessors would have killed roughly about one hundred thousand girls in the last about two decades so you see the world is waking up it is turning away and if you look at the precipitating circumstance if you crane more and more agreements are going to say the world is politically bankrupt economically bankrupt and as for morality forget it morality is going outside the window so yes a multi-polar world is fast developing and so what is this multipolar world going to look like because china doesn't go in there's a joint military alliances what kind of relationship we see russia's pivot to the

to aging as well what kind of relationship is china in russia going to have moving forward. well i think. china is looking for a sphere of influence and china is a rising power as this is having a lot of lot of success and lot of it is causing a lot of irrigation in the asia pacific russia russia has a different perspective russia has always been a great power russia was a super power in the soviet union was and in the russia is as you point out in your in your interview at the russian perspective is that it has been ignored his interest has been ignored they have been ignored and there were certain policy that the united states did not abandon in the aftermath of the cold war that when they do expansion and you know the nato expansion nature nato expansion and it's an expansion i remember reading the summer books after after the collapse of the soviet union with a bit where we have we had given. assurances that nato would not

expand would not come to russia's border borders and then we just went ahead and do it so from russia's perspective containment is very much alive so russia and china have to have always wanted to have a multiple to work now what's happening is in the in the aftermath of two eights economic meltdown they didn't make situation has has not has not been favoring you know the u.s. interest so in the aftermath of that mark that well i would he has become more afraid of reality now ukraine crisis is in my estimation at least was probably more one of the most recent examples of russia's irritation i remember president putin's comment everybody remembers that he said that the collapse of the soviet union was the greatest disaster of the twentieth century so you know people who are who are who are making america's foreign policy and deal d. and d. o. s. and various. bureaucracies should have been studying this that perspective and

should have adjusted our. foreign policy according to so from my point of view i'm sad to say that that perspective was not it was not formed it would continue and was very much alive and they do and they do expect they were very much alive now a new variable has been that if nuclear if a country which is not a member of the e.u. or nato becomes for the first becomes member of the u. and then moves on to join nato so that kind of you know it's wrong signals to do it through the russia russia or ukraine it's a different a different story but you know russia. i think i think there are russian success even in making a big dent in the uni polar world was the case of syria russia's cooperation with you are and is another example that russia wants to make could make a serious dent in the emerging poor war so you know these things

are very significant russian chinese exercise military exercise. exercise is but the most recent exercise is a good example of something the russian. for that little sheet and let's talk about this kind of collaboration you know mark it's interesting week with that the statement according president putin that the collapse of the soviet union was the worst catastrophe of the twentieth century but it's very interesting again if you look at the context of this if you were to read the next few lines of that speech because i remember in watching it live he talked about how people fell into despair economic catastrophe people finding themselves on the wrong side of the border it's much more then it wasn't even about lamenting the passage of the soviet union as a great power but would when its collapse came about the the results of it and that's what he was lamenting most you know and there's there's a lot of people in this country and in use that you're an expert on it i've been living here for a long time there are people here that are absolutely fine turning away from the

west because the west never gave russia very much respect ok they can go to western europe and you know go shopping and whatnot but because it is the biggest consumer market in europe but they don't have to adopt western values they can have their own values. you know to be specific when putin was saying that he was referring to a geopolitical catastrophe. as to the this gap of the gap that is emerging between western and not only russian values but i think the values of much of the rest of the world i think we are seeing here. a clash of civilizations as huntington termed it early in the one nine hundred ninety s. not precisely as he dictated it but it is becoming a. conflict of cultures and of civilizations and a primary to that is the western belief you could call it

a logical and messianic in the superiority of its own values which it views as universal huntington said in the emerging world of ethnic conflict in civilizational clash the western belief in the universe ality of western values suffers three problems it is false it is a moral and it is dangerous and that is exactly what we've seen with this attempt to spread western values both by hooking crook you know first through the vector of neo liberal globalisation and consumerism but also through these military adventures particularly since the advent of the war on terror in the two thousand which has first antagonized the rest of the world. and has really put the world order as it was defined in the un charter its belief

in sovereignty and non interference in domestic affairs has really dented that has caused a severe shake up there but also it has really hastened the. line of the u.s. probably by about two decades by the immense amount of resources that it has wasted and for so little accomplishment every state that the us has touched from iraq afghanistan haiti libya syria now ukraine has resulted in absolute chaos and destruction on the ground there is not a single positive example of successful nation building after this u.s. interference that. can be you know noted on and this waste of resources it's an tagon ization of the rest of the world has actually accelerated the emergence of

a multi-polar world order by probably about two decades rodney you were shaking your head in agreement you want to add to that. well yes that was said there's not been a single example of successful nation building it gets down to. a successful nation destruction going back one quick point there has been and is military cooperation between russia and china for the last ten years at least it takes the form of the shanghai cooperation organization i think but the essence of the matter now is the recognition of the economic bankruptcy of the west the political bankruptcy and the moral bankruptcy that does not necessarily mean to say that other models other ways of thinking are necessarily the best or that there is sort of one way forward but it does mean that everybody is now exploring ways of cooperation in military fields

in technology in finance trying to create new banking systems which are free from american control and in this way a new world is actually developing in practice there can be a like to be a very rough and ready process all right gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the multipolar world. lead. good luck. to build.

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welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing the multipolar world. sometimes i'd like to go back to you in washington i think a lot of people tend to forget that the type of world system we have right now is rather anomalous it doesn't happen very often in and human history where one power is so dominant in so you know polar world right now and we see cracks in that marc was very good in describing that what a lot of people would like to see a multipolar world is to reign in american power american excesses because it has been extremely excessive since the end of the cold war having a multi-polar world will bring greater balance and this is what i think a lot of people want to work towards well you know i understand that i i understand

the russian perspective i understand the chinese perspective and priorities about. moving the war or away from from the from unipolarity and what i'm going to say instead of every strategic level. all great powers have to have fears of influence or great powers want to be dominant and you know. these notions drive all great powers that include russia united states and as well as china so what is happening now since the two thousand and eight i don't know how to how much of my comments you heard because i was disconnected as i was seeing the aftermath of the two to two thousand and eight meltdown. global environment has been more fear a bull for the evolution of a more bipolar world which is favored by russia and china russia is doing very well china is doing very well in maintaining its year of influence in central asia china

is doing very well in maintaining a sphere of influence in. in the east east asia the united states is. based on i mean the problem is here i'm tired and i say with you here the problem is here is that the united states wants to keep it a you know polar world this is why it keeps going after russia's periphery it's so it's in circling china militarily i mean they want to keep it this way full spectrum dominance and this is where push comes to shove because i agree with you a lot of the what the natural course of things is a major countries have major powers have their spheres of influence and that's not necessarily a negative thing it's a natural thing here but washington doesn't want anybody to have spheres of influence it only wants to have its own and with its allies. you know you know peter i agree with you i have no problem with that sigman but no great power is going to allow its demise willingly or cooperate of the only example is with

britain's demise as a great power when united states became became a successor but there was a congress of entrance interests between between those two countries now russia. and russia are now and united states they have conflicting interests that have been competitive interests but you're right i think our biggest flaw is where i'm concerned we have maintained our policy of containment containment of china continued contingent of russia we have a policy of nato expansion which russia did not like every single president. since the bush sr well has been has been expanding nato even though we gave them we gave assurances to russia that we are going to expand nato and when it comes to ukraine it's a special issue. we have studied history when we have forgotten history so you know we have to we have to have some new approach toward this we do need a new problem here is it go ahead roddy jump in go ahead and london. peter american

containment of countries is in fact american expansionism when everyone got the them on the road doctrine that was all in no let's expand into south america and containment today is a policy which puts the usa and its allies right up against other countries it's no good saying that it's in the nature of countries like human beings to want to dominate or to expand what you ultimately have to have as with liberty inside a country if you have to have the spreading of power democracy means nothing without the spreading of economic power in fact economic democracy is the only thing that matters and in the big wide world out there when you have one country dominating that is in fact an outrage the usa has got special operations troops in one hundred twenty four countries they're the ones who are doing anything from smearing the character of people to assassinations this is because there is an american sumption that what it stands for is of worth all the trouble with the usa

it is not economically democratic i won't go into the figures on that and by the way it's scared of a civil war it's got too big and dumbed down bullets to use the civil war against its own population this country is failing and it's going down and there are new countries arising but please don't talk to me about containment containment is american expansionism and it's been like that for many many decades market it seems to me that there is this crisis that we know we can look at what happened with syria with libya now with ukraine it seems to me in your opinion on it it seems really the us is in a race or the washington consensus is in a race because it goes see china it does see that it's alienating russia russia and china have good relations i don't see them in a mil a military alliance they don't see that at all but having very good cordial relations and eight counterbalance to the west victoria nuland in her elk or in

a hurry. because they know they have to get this full spectrum dominance domination very very quickly and it was talking about a decade or if the game is over yeah i think they're definitely you're correct that they are in a race against the clock because they see that there is these inevitable forces that have to do with the shifting of global capital flows from west to east which you could point its roots as early as you know the bretton woods agreement this is kind of the drawing in of china into the global economy these are inevitable but and this will inevitably have a result on the us is the last remaining real source of. power over the rest of the world which is its conventional military dominance and this is fading now i disagree that the united states does not recognize the multipolar world they've recognized for a while the national intelligence council in two thousand and eight put out the

global trends twenty twenty five report which was all about analyzing the emerging multi-polar world. it's fairly accurately it must be said and even in two thousand and nine during one of joe biden's visit to the ukraine he quite facetiously stated that the united states is trying to build a multi-polar world the u.s. is trying to build a multi-polar world that recognizes it's happening but it wants it to emerge in a form that is of its own choosing and that feels as reflective of its values and the way it hopes to do that is by tying the rest of the world into the the institutions of global governance and other internet international organizations which propagate its values and they've run into a number of problems the complete failure of the g eight the subversion of the g twenty. the failure of the world trade organization to continue its mission and i

think. we can look at the trans-pacific partnership as one of the last big gasps and it's not only of an attempt to a near a liberal cement the pacific in with the united states with this free trade agreement but it will also be the. core the economic core if you will to further the development of a military spear of containment and alliance against an emerging china in the pacific and i think most of the world should probably hope. that this this attempt to construct a trans-pacific partnership fails son in washington. many people talk about washington's overreach militarily and its alliances here again how does it balance all of that because it has commitments all over the place right now it's baiting russia it's we have the president going to the pacific saying they're going to

defend south korea defend the philippines defend panick cetera et cetera this is a very interesting point in history for the united states was it has so many different commitments and with allies that have very different agendas. yes we yes we have different agendas that egypt is not as a part of the which is which is perceived by by by china as as containment but you know you had to. guess are making. a big deal and i don't want to share that notion number one number two they are discussing united states in the past as if the united states and united states dominance in democracies is a done deal what i'm arguing is that in the month dipolar war or the russia rushes into have an interest have to be respected and that is something that is being argued for this side of that language and e.u. is also arguing that russia's interests have to be have to be recognized russia has

a great power russia is definitely can be can be a recognized as i want to be good power or one of the superpower that is russia is a good power so you know all of these this collision of interests that right know it is creating a situation an uncertain situation in which the dominance the united states is there your writing is the main least in the military realm but you know we are going to exploit that we are exporting that in asia pacific and we're not going to give that up and we are we're doing that lead to africa in fighting terrorism so you know no dominant power is going to be our no great power no uni people are in the unit with them no dominant power is going to say ok our demise is a done deal well defined you to take this take these keys and then take over and that's going to happen ok i mean i think you need to be you probably mean a lot or here in london right now it seems to me one of the america's greatest exports is to export chaos. if i could just comment on the ten years yes

america thinks it's got ten years to sort of effectively get full spectrum dominance but i don't think so i think the situation is speeding off. at any point now perhaps even within the next eighteen months there will be a sudden crack in the financial economic power of the usa with the point that you're making how does america spread its commitments all way around the world and when that bric collapse comes the u.s. power will be suddenly broken and at that point there will be this huge danger of world war because people go to war to hide their own failure all said and done though there is this great movement to multi-polar arrangements and connections between the countries the usa and the west is losing and we could be going to a dangerous period but on balance i am optimistic about the future all right gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks many thanks to my guest in london washington and in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.

see you next time and remember. clean more zero casualties war this is the great fantasy of war mongering politicians. capturing people is messy what do you do if the innocent killing them easy we were serve the right to kill any person anywhere any time. they can do the looting but they come to the drug

smugglers most of these things servers and politicians get a new kind of power via this technology savvy is very tempting. mum. mum said the series of school basis tried to claim the same people are going to. want to get fired for destroying the teaching every minute and. somehow made the last laugh oh well. my own wife would hate. most of us think that's setting. these cases just to beat the odds and

sometimes for nothing to. do so we have the evidence and. it's not just any of the story he's guilty jobst if you see a stage eight lupita was going to kill all the salad and. i was trained. in december of two thousand and ten. more likely to be raped in college than in the real world. i didn't think that to each other when they knew each other i thought rape was a stranger on the bus this. girl complaining about the son of an alumni gives millions of dollars to the school why listen to somebody who's going to lose money at a school if schools that make money based decisions are much more common than they

would ever admit publicly. on a mission to surround the eastern ukraine largest city shells hit residential buildings a hospital and a school in donya. western wall and they could lose billions of dollars as moscow responds to assign sions with a food him saying it's simply taking his business elsewhere. directed our military to take targeted strikes against terrorists convoys should they move toward the city and the u.s. prepares to get involved in iraq again but the islamic militants have managed to open a large areas of territory including that of the country's largest christian city. the israeli offensive.