please see. below and welcome across for all things considered on peter lavelle you claim is running out of many things money time and patience there's a growing recognition in europe to do you cranium civil war must and through negotiations. have the political will and does washington really want peace.

crosstalk the crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest dmitri lennox in london he is head of the london bureau for voice of russia also in london we have alexander clocks and he is the founder of global political insight and here in moscow we cross to michael hughes he is a journalist and foreign policy analyst who often writes for the huffington post and the examiner right gentlemen crosstalk rules of fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it dimitri in london if i can go to you as we sit down here with the presidents of ukraine and russia have met in minsk there is no outcome of any possible one on one but they shook hands at least that ok. those wanting out of time is certainly out of money and a lot of people losing patience particularly the europeans particularly anglo merkel. where are we in this situation right now and we all know that winter is

looming and russia and ukraine have no gas deal. well we're in the middle of a few conflicting lines i think. during her recent meeting with poroshenko with president poroshenko chancellor merkel centrally pressed him for trying to achieve a peace deal with russia i'm not sure if that is the right line to follow and maybe it should have been kiev should start talking to the rebels the militias in east ukraine to the sulpher claimed republics of luhansk and donetsk that has not happened likely it's not going to happen anytime soon however that is the line that to me sounds the only promising one and again in addition to what merkel said her vice chancellor also said that the only hope for a key of to achieve some sort of settlement is to talk directly now on the other

hand persian co is under pressure from his more radical wing i suppose the sort of done community if i may describe it with such. in order to. promote the military operation to step it up to achieve a military victory and that's i think what was on the cards for ukraine's independence day on some very of the twenty fourth of august that has not happened chances are it won't anytime anytime soon because i what we have here is a stalemate alexandra in london one of the problems we have here with how the west looks at events in ukraine is that they basically refuse to call it a civil war because they always say go talk to the russians now see this is the problem right here because you know either the russians are doing too little or too

much ok but the fact of the matter is what dimitri just said in london is that care has to talk to the people that it's attempting to kill and this is what the west should be pushing more is a recognition that there is a civil war in ukraine and that the russians can only do so much because in some corners of russia does anything it's called doing too much go ahead alexander in london absolutely agree with you on that one peter look the question is here it doesn't really matter what russia wants or ukraine wants or the u. wants the real question is whether the people on the ground in eastern ukraine want these are the people that matter and it's pretty obvious from what they say from what we hear is that people in eastern ukraine do not think the key if represents their interests they do not think that pro shango is the man to lead the country for them they want federalization they want more autonomy and that's why there is a civil war now for poor shank oh he has two options he can either accept these

facts and actually agree to give more thought to me to the region which would hopefully end the conflict or the second option he will continue to shell the region which resulted in two thousand people innocent people dying it resulted in three hundred thirty thousand people being displaced many of them going to. with the rush and if he chooses the path then the conflict continue and that will result in ukraine's economy going downhill at a very very fast speed it's already struggling and i don't know any examples of any country that has a mileage to survive a civil war and prosper during a conflict so for shanker it's a choice between peace and autonomy for eastern and eastern ukraine or a perpetual civil war ok well i want to talk about of the right sector and poroshenko economic problems in a few minutes here michael if i can go to you dmitri mentioned you know my down crowd which i think he's being a bit generous so there's some really nasty elements surrounding him in that

government right now i mean if he hostage more to them or to victoria nuland or they will or those. groups all on one side because you know you have put it he said this in the past you know he's agreed to things that's right we'll get a cease fire in place we'll talk to these people and then within twenty four hours after a phone call apparently from washington he's you know a bombing civilians again in eastern ukraine i mean who is part of shank oh is he a man that you could do business with. i think he is alternately going to go partly where the money's coming from and i know the u.s. is more than willing to you know they've authorized funding for ukraine military so we can expect that to keep happening the u.s. doesn't want to see a this resolved they want to see ukrainian military victory because they're short sighted and they don't understand the realities on the ground. you would hope that you know at times it seems like he's listening to merkel who wants more decentralization which may be which may be the you know the best most optimal

outcome but again they do have to listen what are the separatists what are the russian rebels want what are the russian people want in the east and i suspect it's local autonomy i think it's more independence and ultimately will he listen to those demands regardless what everyone else does and i think he's torn i think the u.s. and merkel are taking different approaches they're not on the same page it doesn't seem to me obama is a big clueless bit reactive and he's listening to the you know the neo cons and the warmongers that still have the cold war mentality that we can't give an inch in this regard even though the west you know it in terms of the u.s. just has no business in this region you know they don't i don't understand why they think they have a dog in this fight but you know it's very interesting like that they feel like they have a dog every one of the major taking them back to you i mean again i mean really puzzled by porter shank i mean what are his powers here because he has to look over

his shoulder he has to be careful not to alienate the people that essential brought him to power we can talk about you know the history of them i don't but you and i both know when our viewers know there's some really nasty people that he brought along with him into his presidential administration or at least have strings attached to him here he has to be very mindful of them absolutely that's what i started. trying to listen to the crowd as it were. that does so obviously and now the west seems to recognize it as well some very nice nasty characters that's absolutely true but he house well he seems to have chosen that route yes rather than and the dissolution of parliament is sort of you know points in that very direction i mean he's talking to characters like the right sector the freedom party and all of those characters i'm not sure actually that that was his mandate sort of three months ago when he was elected my understanding would be that

he was kind of pictured as a businessman who would be pragmatic enough to talk to the people in the east and negotiate something. and now it appears that he's taken this pretty radical course and i'm not entirely sure we're rather pretty sure that this is not going to do well for him you know alexander in london i agree with a great deal that dimitri just said that i think it was brought in to crush the people in the east get it over with quickly don't cover it in media and then you know give a fait accompli to the russian saying you know what this is ours now you have to make a gas agreement will turn it off well it will blame you in the rush in the europeans will be angry with you i mean again this victoria nuland thing they can't let go of this insane plan that she conjured up and they you know we know what direction crimea is going to go the thing is i think it doesn't have

a clue what he's trying to do what he's trying to accomplish that's why as i said he said in the beginning of the program you're running out of everything when it comes anything related to ukraine right absolutely i mean if you you know sticking with the point on the on the right sector ukraine right now is running on nationalism and it's pretty obvious to see why you know the people in ukraine and that's accusing west ukraine struggling to live right now we have heard reports which we have been confirmed. has been turned off in kenya for example so people right now you know they don't know how to hold water in the capital and that's down to preserve the gas reserves for the winter months when of course ukraine will be completely without gas and it's it's difficult to see what they're going to do about it so you know push i can the government actually actually have to promote this nationalistic extremist views in the country in order to keep the spirits up

but of course what that results in. is in western ukraine ultimately becoming alexander let me ask you a question about his alexander family i mean if you ever spent a winter in eastern ukraine or in russia we've ever been there i've been there in the winter actually it's not very pleasant ok ok because well we just you know tell our viewers here what existence will be like without electricity and natural gas in february go ahead. well look i mean everyone knows that you know everyone had the myths about russia plummeting to minus forty degrees the only thing is that's no myth that's reality and in the same situation ukraine is going to be very cold so the truth is prosecco has to make some sort of a deal with russia when it comes to gas you know it's it's a big call to russia can play. and you know talks between pushing and pushing come through putin will make it clear that you know any any future discussions towards

peace will have to include gas pipes being opened up again in ukraine and does have to make a choice does he allow his civilians to have warmth in their homes and hold water or the sea continue to plunge them into the coldness oh you know we can't just blame putin they say oh we see generally we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with r.t. . the little. things

you. should have you with us here on t.v. today i'm researcher. look at the pledge it was terrible to say now i'm very sorry to take out a letter again a little longer a plug that he ever had sex with others make their lives let's play. lists and

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welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered on peter lavelle true mind you were discussing the military stalemate in ukraine. ok i want to go back to michael here in moscow one of the interesting things as we've mentioned on this program here is the economic situation in ukraine and we're looking at a contraction of this year of seven point five percent and that's in the most important industries and sectors of the economy and the in the ugly outlook is very very bleak here and merkel has made it more or less clear if she doesn't always speak straight but if you listen to her long enough germany is not going to pay for

this the european union isn't going to pay for this i.m.f. isn't going to they're going to have to give a heck of a lot more money not the seventeen billion that they promised but a whole lot more there and is as we heard from alexander with no good energy agreement between ukraine and russia there's a lot of people who are not going to be sending money into ukraine again it seems to me that push and go is losing. is running out of options i mean if the economy is cratering if i could for the first time in my life quote john mccain go ahead. you know it's it's interesting that you know the self-proclaimed you know he was considered a you know this business you know brilliant businessman that he's failing to understand basic economics at this point and shoot him self in the foot you know he's playing a dangerous game that is you know like was said earlier he said listen you've been blinded by these nationalist sentiments and you know when you look at merkel her

you know she's very careful in her advice but it's obvious germany is being driven by the economics of this situation otherwise you know merkel would probably play a different tune let's be honest with that so merkel realizes how precarious the economic situation is more than you know ukrainians own leadership so i think you know he needs to you know wake up sit down with putin understand you know what you know understand what you know russia's looking for in the separatists are looking for and there's got to be some compromise here and all the you know rhetoric out of ukraine out of key you know there's been no hint of compromise in any way. i mean you know it's just unbelievable and meanwhile there are you know ukraine there's humanitarian crisis and everyone's turn and you know their heads are met we don't hear about that in state department press briefing at all or you know or the other western media i mean it's very interesting to me if i go back to you in london look the lack of compromise and the lack of

a language to help resolve this crisis here i mean it on this program alone we have given all the reasons why this conflict is going nowhere and is only going to get worse for everyone on the ground here but you know we have this president that is not entirely legitimate a lot of people didn't participate in that presidential election on may twenty fifth but if he does compromise i have to wonder if victoria nuland going to cut him loose and that someone in kid will have a light post with his name on it because that's why he can't compromise. because the people that surround him do not want compromise they want conflict many of them believe in ethnic cleansing this is their agenda but they can't compromise and this is the problem kids can't compromise they can't take the answer yes from anyone and this is the tragedy of it all and when it comes from the united states it to a great degree we're not rushing repeatedly since able to the president have had really good ideas gas collate this and no one in cavil listen to them well there's

two things i'd like to mention first is that on the one hand there is this view and a legitimate view very well sort of based in fact that it's not for somebody else outside to settle this conflict it's for the ukrainians on the other hand it's probably equally true that the outside players do have a major role to play now. sort of taking up the minsk meeting and the absence of any particular mystic views of that or of its outcome. i think there's a great symbolic element to it and that is that minsk brought together the customs union which russia first and foremost it brought together kiev ukraine and brought together the european union true manuel barroso was not there he

sent his sort of other man there by rose who couldn't. i guess countenance any sort of well what could be construed as failure but anyway the formula russia ukraine e.u. is something that russia offered back in november. and something that the e.u. rejected out of hand. so this format i think is very significant you is coming back to realize we should have talked to russia. in trying to devise this architecture of ukraine's relationship with russia on the one hand or with the customs union in the one hand and the e.u. on the other and that i think that sort of form that formula that axis gives me some optimism ok well it's very i agree with dmitri there because the united states

wasn't there victoria nuland wasn't sitting isn't in minsk right now and. no one would know in which expect that she'd ever sit there after what she said in her telephone conversation to the american ambassador in kiev but that's very interesting because we have this formula it was on the table back in november of last year why don't we just all sit down and talk and the european union slammed the door in everyone's face particularly minister you know covert is and ultimately russia's and this is something that the the russian side and i always try to try to explain how the russian side sees all of this is that from the kremlin's point of view you can't trust the e.u. because in february they made a deal a power sharing deal with the government the current legit lee and elected government in kiev and the europeans the european union walked away from it lied and this is what's remembered here in moscow so we go all the way back to the beginning are you optimistic with these parties in minsk that we could start seeing a process alexander in london. right well you have to first of all ask yourself why

did the european union did in the van but because that went completely against their own interests we've seen now since the you american post sanctions on russia a you has actually struggled quite quite a lot italy is going into recession germany's business is suffering. you know that been plenty of of predictions that many jobs a bill lost because of the sanctions and the overall economy of the you will will now improve because of the situation that we find ourselves in with the ukrainian crisis so you do have to ask yourself who was behind these. these plans to to impose sanctions on russia i mean it's pretty clear that washington was the primary primary promoter of this and you know you can understand why because they don't actually suffer much from from this it's the us suffers and it's russia that suffers and it's just a shame that the e.u.

decided to follow in washington leads rather than actually sticking to their own interests but you're quite right to say that for russia it's very difficult to trust the west this is what the western seem to understand from russia's point of view the west has to skip trick tricking russia over and over again that tricked them in the vendor when unocal which signed the deal with the opposition and the and the deal completely went through you know they've tricked him on you know in many other regions including libya so from put his point of view on and of course let's not forget the nato enlargement which is you know the big elephant in the room here because over the years the west has promised russia that they would never . get closer to the russian border with nato but the complete opposite you know that so many so many countries join nato and of course the biggest threat to russia now is whether you create a build your nato and that's what they try to prevent and unless the west understands that you know i don't see how how we were ever see the an end to this

conflict you know much of michael. in moscow one of the and when the interesting things if you can reflect it back exactly one year ago and you see what was going on in ukraine it was an economy that was kind of moving along in its ukrainian way there was no ethnic strife there was no war there were no sanctions inflation was under control people complained as slavic people complained all of the time i lived in this part of the world for almost thirty years part of the tradition but look at ukraine now it never should have come to this there should have never been a coup in february let's all remind our our viewers here is that you know mr you know coverts made a deal he was against violence and now look what's happening you have a government came to power illegitimate government and was instantly recognized by the west instantly and they start a war against their own people again i'm glad. you had to say because if you look at it from a different point of view look at

a different narrative then you can see why it's going to be very difficult for people in eastern ukraine and their relatives who happen to live in russia it's going to be difficult for them to trust the west again. yes and you know i think narratives the key word in the u.s. is very good at developing a narrative that you know echoes of the cold war and you know one of the questions is the what if what if the u.s. didn't get involved what if they did not interfere what would life look like today when americans don't think that way americans can put themselves in you know russia's shoes you know what is the big elephant in the room is russia does have national interests and could you imagine if russia had a military alliance that extended itself close to the u.s. border we react in a certain way we definitely well it was called the cuban missile crisis ok ok you're too young to remember it but as a story and that's exactly what it was here dimitri you know i've known you for a while i work with you we've got voice of russia and you always keep an element of

optimism where do you get it from. well it's it's a tough one and you know you get that sort of with age i suppose contrary maybe to popular belief but. i do tend to believe that you know there are. there are rational elements in all of the sort of all of the parties involved in the e.u. even in the us i do so even if i apologize if we got sort of. a group grazes on somebodies view of the world there is definitely a rational elements in russia and in ukraine even though at the moment ukraine is being in a very. painful place and it's driven by all this idiology and the new parliament promises to be a lot more radical than the current one and that i think is a mistake but the sooner they get there the sooner i think they will find they will

fall out of love with that sort of course ok on that but that's a very interesting point and i will be will continue i different program on that later many thanks and i guess in london and here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time remember. these. as. well as. this will show bush transports gets a facelift and he cuts an important to make the most of the sun in years and signs

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