hello and welcome to crossfire all things are considered on peter lavelle facing the abyss ukraine is running out of options as winter approaches crashing economy the regime in kiev he's hinted it may be looking to end the civil war but that train may have already left the station. to cross-talk ukraine civil war i'm joined by my guest joshua talked across the new york he's an independent journalist in atlanta we have jim dean he is a managing editor and columnist for veterans today and here in moscow we crossed to dmitri bobbitt she's a political analyst with the voice of russia or a gentleman cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage and joshua in new york you wrote an article a few weeks ago that was amazingly moving for my opinion my opinion and it talked

about perceptions of the civil war in ukraine to the point where even the west doesn't even want to dare call it a civil war because there would be culpability involved please tell our viewers what the article was about and why you wrote it. well my impression is that many intellectuals or liberal publications which focus on the war in ukraine. first of all they depicted as if it's a war between ukraine and russia which is absolutely false it's basically a situation in which the state ukraine has turned against its own citizens is bombarding them with impunity and it's ukraine secondly it depicts the oppression we often get in the western media in the mainstream media of the conflict in ukraine is that. the people in. korean have nothing to do with the fighters who are fighting there they are captured by these alien fighters who came in from outside and they simply want to be free from there the fact that they were

taken over they're not being bombarded heavily we don't know about the numbers of refugees or the ninety thousand people were already displaced internally and over two hundred thousand people were led to russia they didn't flee to kiev they fled to russia we have no idea of the catastrophe humanity humanitarian catastrophe which has taken place in east ukraine so at the same time the people in ukraine are being demonized as mobs loyalist listeners. responsible people who can. be trusted and are constantly lying and we also have an impression that russia is constantly invading which is absolutely false as if russia it's kind of loch ness monster which is always erupting from somewhere you never see it actually in front of us it's just always emerging i like to jog through the lot like this monster living here they go to do you mean here in moscow yes the lochness monster that's exactly what's happening i'm looking at the atlantic right now russia is already invading ukraine by that well known

intellectual known as david frum and at the atlantic here russia has already invaded demon did you know that. well first i would like to say that i admire george for his courage because what he's saying is going against the mainstream in the west and this is getting increasingly difficult to do now i will just like to correct some figures there are certainly more if you jeus even according to the united nations data there are currently two hundred seventy thousand east ukrainian or if you g.'s in russia the real figure is certainly big because a lot of people did not trade just as refugees they're just staying with their friends or relatives it's no less than seven hundred thousand and i think it's a really stick estimate because danielle skis acedia with a population or one million well ganske is a c.t.o. with a population approach in van meegeren and water of these c.d.'s in the last few weeks

of face the humanitarian disaster they were bombarded and they were in food and water you remember that these russian demonized cournoyer had to wait for ten days before it would cross into ukraine and bring food to these people. joshua is absolutely right the western media. doesn't even know just how it contradicts to what they had been saying just a few days ago all. before we discuss the invasion let me remind you that a few weeks ago the west declared russia guilty or of the malaysian airlines disaster even before the evidence was collected not only before the trial but before the evidence was collected now for three weeks the black boxes are in the hands of british experts and we don't hear anything above from them you know everyone seems to have forgotten in the only way born to be a mother or gave a hearing or or dever we don't know what the outcome is that's why they don't run

a reporter here jim if i can go to you in atlanta i mean if there is a humanitarian crisis being played out in eastern ukraine which you would never understand that from western media so the suffering of people. well in the east ethnic ethnic russians nice is less worthy of coverage i suppose then the humanitarian crisis that the united states has created in iraq well what we're seeing is really cruelty on really a massive scale here and there's three parts to it the trends today is primarily intelligence website and then we have a lot of all of the older cold war people with us and what we're seeing here is about as top drawer a psychological operation being run that anything that's ever been designed before and one of the classic tools is is when you know you're going to be doing a lot of nasty things somewhere as part of an operation or taking over a country through destabilization one of the first things you do is everything

you're going to be doing you start accusing the other side of doing it so that you can get the media on that first and when they deny it they already know from their testing that once they're on the defensive the public always tends to believe the people that made the accusation so we have through nato and the pentagon really what's going on is an office of war basically that's economic to the media stand down we're just watching what the media is doing and no offense to our russian friends but it's almost like we swap places with the old propped up and the red chinese newspapers that just printed whatever the government commissar has told them to put out i mean they are printing the most unbelievable sun substantiated stuff and even case after case after case where the air for a mission is discredited within twenty four hours yeah there is no revolt in the

media to say harry you've got to stop you've got to stop giving us these totally bogus information so then we got all that we got to joshua. here let me go to joshua new york and so externally good point here because on you know if you were a c.e.o. of a company and you kept getting your predictions wrong and your your estimations on you would be fired by shareholders but if you report on certain countries particularly russia no matter how wrong you get it you're still given a pat on the back and maybe a raise ok you can always get russia wrong and never be in trouble. exactly i would say it's quite frightening levels because what we have is that the western media is constantly almost day after day blaming russia for things that did not commit and it fits into people as a ready made idea of russian people as negative stigmas of russians as these barbarians are angry people and controllable people who are out there to judge which is completely unsubstantiated the people in donetsk are on the heavy

bombardment is so on the grounds many civilians are getting killed intentionally by ukrainian forces and middle and extreme right wing militias and not only is the western media extremely not not even apologizing for or retracting unbased allegations which it printed every day which have no basis whatsoever but they simply do not portray the facts that are taking place on the ground when you have a battalion that does of battalion which is composed of neo nazis and much of the check the neo nazis from throughout europe and it's been said by an oligarch you would expect the new york times to mention this at some point they don't even bother to mention it so there's no mention of actual extremist and. military units which are bombarding civilians but there is new york times yesterday was extremely concerned about the fact that perhaps according to its own and based allegations russian soldiers came and now the ukrainian soldiers are a new treat and you can see how in the article they are extremely concerned about

the fact that the ukrainian soldiers are in retreat and the poor ukrainian soldiers are suffering from the russian soldiers because we. have a russian is has invaded ukraine you just keep saying it over and over and over again but it hasn't happened. if i can go to you again you know every time the reference to crimea is right after russia invaded crimea and you know i watch that and c.n.n. b.b.c. al-jazeera etc etc and i would always like to like stop the frame and say can someone please tell me the date of the invasion and then. you know hit play because you can't name a date because there was no invasion this is what we're fighting against go ahead well the problem is that indeed not a single person was killed during the so-called invasion of crimea of. ukrainian troops stationed in crimea did not want to protect it they just left because the population was overwhelmingly for the union with russia but the problem is that

when things don't go away according to a plan russia is always to blame it is quite clear that these parade in t. of which we've saw on august the twenty fourth it was supposed to be the victory parade you. were expected to take will ganske and then yes by that they'd so instead of a victory parade we had a very embarrassing situation because the rebel started to counter offensive and how do you explain it to the people rush invaded because this is the only way you can save face in this situation what is very interesting is that the ukrainian authorities said they didn't have belief stick missiles and the ballistic missiles were at these parade. so it was an embarrassment on them to all disappear without the embarrassment but i would like to mention you know i condemn rusa for bit not because i am russian you know there are all kinds of racism in more than war the

problem with forebear is that you can explain by the evil designs of russians any mistake that the western governments make in syria why are things not going according to a plant because russia did not vote in the security council in favor of the resolution in fact. push an aside from power why are things not going according to the plan in ukraine why are the rebels counter if they can because russia invaded so russia is always used as an experience for western governments mistakes. ok gentlemen we're going to go to a short break down to that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine today with our take. a look at the league. as a. player. played.

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the economic downturn the final. day of the deal and the rest of life they will be a prickly. they say. welcome back to cross talk we're all things were considered i'm peter lavelle true mind you were discussing the civil war in ukraine.

ok i'd like to go back to atlanta jim i looked very carefully at the the summit in minsk where the presidents of russia and ukraine met and looked at the transcript of the q. and a president putin had later did it like at two o'clock in the morning what's really quite interesting is that to really resolve the civil war in ukraine is that everyone in ukraine all the major parties have to sit down together in talk first to end the civil war and then to start a new relationship with russia because let's be frank russia holds almost all of the cards ukrainians want cheap oil cheap gas. cheap products cheap cheap cheap no and nonpayment here and at the same time to echo what she was saying you know you know the demonization of russians in the east of that country and russia itself isn't doing any good i don't know how we're going to make these two ends meet go ahead jim. well it's like they have this crazy idea that they think that

they can use that if you give us what we want which is we want to have a trade arrangement with the e.u. and yet we want all of the russian subsidies to continue we'll stops demonizing you like they think that's going to be what the deal is going to work out but really what these dummies are doing and this is why the western people are going to pay for this because ukraine is getting ready is in the process of jumping off the cliff financially it's already a basket case and putin put out the other day that the i think it was going to be in ten years they are going to cancel all of their subsidies and preferential policies with the ukraine and that was going to be one hundred sixty billion dollars a year old so rough that out the twenty billion us twenty billion dollars a year losses to the economy and hey guess what ukraine doesn't have twenty billion dollars a year to lose so all of the money the i.m.f.

loans and whatever that's that's just going to turn into a tidal wave of write in ink and the i.m.f. lady said early on in the game and she was the only one that said this that we're going to have to be very careful how this i.m.f. loan money is used such means it's just not the way where you got to remember x. ukraine you know we're getting three i'll tell you corruption in ukraine it makes russians blush ok believe me joshua just let me go to you in new york one of the if you looked at some of the pictures taken at that summit it was extremely interesting you had the e.u. you had ukraine you had russia you had the customs union and you had also representatives of the association agreement with the european union it's amazing isn't it i mean we had that option by. back in november we had that option when everybody was around the table saying hey maybe we can kind of work this out you

know we can finance this we can give a little bit on that we all can compromise but no brussel said no no no three times and then what and now let's go to the president how many people have died how many people are displaced how many people have been injured this economy is in tatters and all of a sudden i see lady ashton in minsk remarkable absolutely i've it's just incredible because when president putin in november offered ukraine to have a lot of role economic relations with the e.u. and russia the e.u. didn't want to hear about it now all of a sudden they're considering it they're bringing it back on the table and now also merkel old merkel is suddenly remembered that there is the possibility of having a federation and ukraine after the i think russians and ukraine have come under a massive bombardment after there's an incredible hate campaign against them both by the media and among politicians coming from politicians incredible hate speech

which would not be acceptable and if western audience would actually be aware of the degree of racism involved i think they would be quite shocked and many. i've heard stories from friends in donetsk how many soldiers ukrainian soldiers have told them we came here because our government promised us that we're going to get you home here we capture this area and we will subjugate you and you will be a slave and now after this i'm going to america decided that federation is a good idea ok let me go to ground really running out of time here josh i want to go to demon here in moscow if it possible now can we can we put the horse back into the into the yard there because so much is happening right now i mean logically speaking with john she said you know this is way it should be federal federalizing ukraine ok having some kind of trilateral trade agreement which perfect sense you know but you know victoria nuland wanted everything it wanted ukraine it wanted need to expand everything maximalist all the time can we go back to november and

somehow go back and see if that can work well we can all worse do better than we do now because what has been going on until now was just unacceptable and i completely agree with george when it was initially on a polish was suggested trial a trial negotiations in november last year if it had been accepted by the e.u. put in accepted it things would have been totally different right now and i agree with jim that the biggest costs are for the western community of nations because remember what we did not cancel this association agreement with the you here just postponed it and he said that it would cost you crane one hundred sixty billion euros in fact of course he would be satisfied with a smaller compensation but the you didn't give him a single penny the result was that now that you has already paid much more than has

been demanding because of the war and because over there in kiev and you simply has no plan for ukraine because ukraine sivia it all economic ties to russia under pressure from the e.u. it can't. it's quantico with a gasp wrong and the question is who is going to heat and feed ukraine this winter the outstanding debt of the nuff to gossip you know the ukrainian energy company to gus braun is five billion dollars who is going to pay this the moment the ukraine is not traded toupet so the problem is that sooner or later the e.u. and the united states will carry much bigger losses than the ones you know the compensation that you know which i ask them to provide one year ago it's very easy let me let me go to jim here because everything you said is factually true absolutely spot on but you know what jim when all when everything goes south it's just going to be russia's faults just like it is this is new we got this right she

got this right because either you get all of it or you wreck it all in what it does is it sours relations between the european union and russia in this is exactly what that u.s. state department wants. well this is something that we've been editorializing about of veterans today and personally i've been savaging we've got the savage the low the horrendous quality of western media's leadership that's the u.s. and europe because this whole thing from the beginning whoever thought it up made absolutely no sense whatsoever and we're facing a situation now that if we don't extract a terrible political price for the mistakes that have been done here we're just leaving them open to come back out and say again because what's going on here the mis leadership here the disasters that are being manufactured in play and have

actually now become the worst national security risk that americans and europeans and plus everybody else face is so we now have our governments doing things that are so dangerous that there are inflicting damage on this that typically would be inflicted you know after you would have a war and lost the war that the media none of the answer to sions are going after them. there should be riots industry to extract the punishment for at least a little bit let me go let me go to joshua because that's exactly it it's think of the you know the apple growers from poland in i don't know the great fruit growers in portugal you know a year ago everything was just going fine and all of a sudden our business is collapsed over what ukraine. what i mean this is got to be the reaction here and i think the the cooler heads in europe going to realize it will why is it worth it victoria nuland sweat dream i

mean is it really worth it to the west to have such a bad relationship with a country that it has exposed express zero aggression towards anyone russia is a contract status quo power if you know anything about the post soviet history go ahead yes i would agree with exactly with what jim say because i think we reached a point where angela merkel realized that if she faces massive unemployment because of the sanctions and the situation is deteriorating so many lives are lost and in addition to that we're moving beyond any kind of solution what kind of solution is this to attack civilians it's pretty clear that she's going to have to think of that that this didn't make sense this was the wrong bet and it didn't bring us any good solutions at all. of course it's always easy to blame russia just because the the united states us of them to russia for interfering and the referee for not interfering in the referendum and the guns in the nets so the u.s. is saying that they should have stopped that so in short everything is russia but

that's completely irrational i think i'm sure the american knows better than that because i think she's a bit smarter than victoria nuland you know she's proving it here you know it's very interesting is that russia gets blamed for doing doing something or not doing enough it's quite remarkable it's a no win situation. well i still hold for the better but i would again say about mrs merkel that i will not put too much hope on her because it was interesting she said she wanted i called some measures that wouldn't hurt russia. wasn't it her who just three weeks ago initiated the e.u. sanctions against russia which led to say tional food imports from the european union so unfortunately mrs merkel mr opportunity to become a real savior all over europe in this situation well what is going on now is just absolutely terrible because we hear for the first time since the beginning of the

crisis not only from their ukrainian media but also from the british and the american media that russia has invaded their only a factual basis is that nine russian soldiers were arrested by the ukrainian security service all the border between russia and ukraine that's a very strange invasion if you invade a country of forty five million people with nine. steal you know with the western media you can believe anything they show you gentlemen we've run out of time fascinating discussion many thanks to my going to new york atlanta and here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules. you leave leave.

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the russian president into one big. ones like it was making a grave mistake that ukraine reportedly rejects an opportunity to surround the. device could by anti-government militias. the u.n. says at least thirty six people killed on average in east ukraine every day on the scene of the latest devastating attack in the resistance stronghold. and living as the interim government is dissolved as militants gain strength threatening to plunge the country into the chaos off simple one.