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hello and welcome the cross for all things are considered on people of l. here we go again we're told the islamic state terrorist group is the worst of the worst and has global ambitions the public is being taught slowly but surely to fear the islamic state it would appear washington continues to attempt to shape it in reshape the middle east. to cross-talk the islamic state i'm joined by my guest jobber haasan in london he is director of the iraqi association also in london we have joseph willits he is from the council for arab british understanding and in washington we crossed ray locker he is the washington enterprise editor for usa today right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want ray if i go to you in washington we have the u.s. defense secretary saying the islamic state threat beyond anything we've seen is it really of this magnitude here because we've heard this before about other groups

and the march toward go ahead ray in washington. well we have a history of doing that i mean the government we saw that pre two thousand and three with saddam hussein and iraq saying he had weapons of mass destruction he didn't we invaded anyway and now all of the rest of the world wonders about our credibility however we had an attack on nine eleven thirteen years ago that killed more than three thousand people and nobody wants to be the person in charge in a government who turns a blind eye to something like that rules out a potential threat and then comes to regret it later so certainly politically the pressure is on to always take these things seriously and then if they turn out not to be so bad to dial it back this may not be a case where we can dial it back if we keep stepping up the military action ok that's interesting joseph if i go to you in london but i mean i suppose if you could just get the chicken or the egg here of course no politician wants to be held responsible for not being vigilant enough here but if you continue to involve

yourself in the affairs of other people very far away it will it syria you know the free syrian army give them money give them equipment oh well there are two to a religious or too radical for us so they move over to another group with all her equipment our money our training and you know again the law of unintended consequences i mean of course what ray says is true but that also can justify more military intervention when less intervention is probably the best thing to do go ahead joseph in london but i think i think bombing alone would would not be the right idea for cereal for iraq there obviously needs to be a very clear strategy which there hasn't been that hasn't been for a long long time in syria for the wider region. we have you know we've also getting the argument that somehow you know isis is the new evil and has been failure is kind of straight is in terms of dealing with us and let us not forget that you know

assad is still barrel bombing. people in aleppo there are still atrocities carrying out documented evidence of war crimes on both sides. obviously you know the fear of this is great and i think this the turning point happens to be i think the beheading of james foley a couple of couple of days ago and it seems that now you know the death of an american journalist is bringing this back of the light and bringing it closer to home again just so you know if you have just let me ask you do you think that son intentionally and i'm not dismissing the suffering of that man and his family and his grieving family but you know it's quite interesting from a p.r. perspective isn't it you have such a spotlight on an american being killed by someone with a british accent which i think needs to be a little bit more investigative as well what i'm saying is if it's really well into this kind of media environment what i think i think with the images of of james

foley we have possibly the biggest extremist p.r. coup since nine eleven i think this comparable images that in terms of london's bombings in madrid bombings and also the death of lee rigby the soldier on the streets of london last year. and i think you know the argument is is that there is a sense that however horrific and gory and extreme the decapitation of james foley is it seems seems strange that only now we're recognizing the plight of iraqis and syria's you know suffering similar of similar fates that there are at the hands of isis and it does there is a risk a very serious risk that you're sending a message that one american life is more valuable than countless thousands of iraq in syria and one's ok you've outlined it one of the interesting things is that we look at this ongoing tragedy in syria where no one is faultless when it be time logically speaking to make amends with assad and take on according to the u.s.

state department. if defense department the most horrific threat to the world then take on isis together that would be logical but it's not going to happen is it well i don't think so to be practical on this issue especially of the other to prove that there is no way for the who are still alive is to make any peaceable deals with the. assad regime. but the threat is there is a growing the should be an immediate action to hold the advances on both sides of the border of iraq on iran syria. ok ray you know it seems to me this is exactly what isis wants they want to take on the big western military giant plane they want to take though and they're just waiting for it because this is what feeds it tracks a lot of people to their following i mean the f.b.i. and we have other western intelligence agencies having

a difficult time estimating how many westerners are actually joining isis right now i mean this is really quite interesting here this is what isis wants it's in the spotlight it's all about they're the purest the baddest the meanest all of the above would it be better not to play their game and to back off and see where it's going to go i don't think it's best to back off i mean i think you do that at your own risk i mean clearly this is on stable group with has a very apocalyptic worldview and to let them do whatever they want would be a mistake regardless of where you are i mean there are so many dangers there are you know in any of these decisions and i don't think you see the u.s. government rushing to do anything president obama does not want to go into syria he only wants to deal with that if he absolutely has to because the choices are all bad you can go any take out the islamic state in syria you're helping assad or you may be helping another group but i mean what are your choices ok maybe the ice is

just too much intervention too much intervention in joseph you know you know ray is absolutely right because what ever party you hope you're going to help another party that you don't like that's a terrible foreign policy position to be in and you know we've seen this tumultuous change in that region for since the end of the cold war particularly in this century here it's outside mentally the more outside meddling the more situations come up like this. or clearly that there has been a failed failed strategy when it comes to syria and iraq and and again it seems that we're only talking about this now. but we you know we can either diminish diminish or stray away from the threat of isis and we cannot stray away from the threat of assad you know i keep reiterating this this point you know that only last year we were talking about chemical attacks in ghouta which was about barrel bombs in aleppo we're talking evidence of eleven thousand people killed under assad and

evidence of you know photographic evidence of torture and of course we're seeing evidence of of isis atrocities are seeing crucifixions we're seeing beheadings we're seeing amputations we're seeing this policy of of fear and of course you know when you were talking about the issue of james foley this this image of a of an american being beheaded in such a way is not necessary a new one it's a tried and tested method that al qaeda have used and there is a discussion now about whether isis is more brutal isis is worse than al qaeda i think it's irrelevant i mean isis is not great it's i you know al qaeda plus. and they just but they're. and we cannot write of isis simply sometimes as a as a crazy ragtag bunch of lunatics which of course they are but they are very smart and they're they're very effective and they have you know they have done so by building and maintaining and consolidating the concept of a state which al-qaeda and in the franchise of al qaeda did not do and obviously it

is tapping into specific iraqi syrian grievances and regional grievances and we cannot underestimate that and there has been failings across the board and and of course bombing alone in what work has to has to be a coalition a an inclusive rate of inclusive group of regional and international powers yeah exactly don't know if i agree with you but you know that you do have same partners you know you the. golf countries saudi arabia i mean where is the funding coming from here i mean again you know you they talk out of both sides of their mouth they are afraid of these fundamentalist groups but there are plenty of people in saudi arabia and the gulf countries that are just giving money to these people and and who knows what else here i mean a coalition is nice and find be can you trust your coalition partners go ahead just before we go to the break well and that regardless of that there has has to be this inclusive inclusive approach and this includes russia and iran are who of course of you know have been and have been funding assad and and there are you know we have

to we have to we have to make sure there isn't a super approach because all parties do have a role to play regardless of of the implications and without that there will be no hope of freeing up syria iraq of of its tyrants of various forms jabari london do you think this is what isis counts on is that there is such the the relationships in alliances in the region are so complex complicated and contradictory even that it's going to be very difficult for the region to deal with them all a no no where years. to we think just ignore. the. decided to attack people and kill for nothing the depth of feeling and the. verse to that conference and many partners were not meeting in the interest. of the situation specially in styria while in iraq was different of course the.

government which. looked to the. brutal regime of saddam but in syria. played the in the very clever way but learned of the. norbu this conflict. ok ok we're on this. and i'm going to just we're going to go to a short break about about. your discussion on the islamic state stay. over the muslims are. from.

her. mum. did you know the price is the only industry specifically mentioned in the constitution and. that's because

a free and open process is critical to our democracy albus. in fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and across several we've been hijacked lying handful of transnational corporations that will profit by the screwing what our founding fathers once told us about my job market and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem trying to fix rational debate and a real discussion of critical issues facing america to find the book ready to join the movement then walk away from the big picture. one of your whole sharman a lot of these major news outlets face time to time you know.

it was. a pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm rory sushant. we.

welcome back to cross talk we're all things considered on peter le beau to remind you we're discussing the threat known as the islamic state. ok ray and i to go back to you in washington exactly one year ago there was the big discussion about the. gas attacks in and around damascus and whether the u.s. was going to attack and that was one year ago i think there are plenty of people in washington would like another shot another pretext to take out that regime and actually try to use it to their advantage when look in dealing with isis what do you think about that i don't think right now that we really the united states government wants to get rid of the assad regime i mean who is going to replace that we've seen in the last year all the things that have happened when you know we've tried to do whatever in syria you have assad he's obviously

a bad actor we would like to not have him there you have isis which is i think even worse stan simply have the free syrian army but no one really knows how powerful they are then you have other it islamised groups that are are probably between assad and isis in terms of ideology so if you pull out assad what's going to happen i don't think this government wants to do anything to help assad but i don't think that they can look at a future without him in power and realize that it's going to be any better this is going to take years if you want to support the free syrian army and hope they both have a kind of capacity. from scuse me to replace assad. you know that might be an option but the vacuum that would be created by knocking out the assad regime right now i think would be a disaster ok i just have a lot of neo cons in in washington never not be logical thinking they would still take the advantage of the situation let's talk about it you ran because iran is a very important regional player and it's

a very stable one it. again odd better bedfellows because if you look at the sunni shia divide i mean the you see how the iranians are helping out. baghdad and you get one of these unintended consequences of the invasion of two thousand and three again because of the animosity between the west and iran that kind of cooperation is going to be quite limited but if it could you know we could get rid of some history and some bad feelings iran could play a very positive role in dealing with isis because they have nothing in common with them because i mean you know isis or of course a threat to iran and they're very they're very close to iranian borders and i think we've just we've discussed before we're in the sense that actually you know iran and iran's involvement with the us in terms of isis in iraq was quite significant in terms of actually sometimes the people of the u.s. are backing in syria are. fighting against assad who are obviously being you know

being funded in iran and i think you know iran has to be brought to the table iran is part of this inclusive approach towards syria and iraq and of course you have seen iran's iran's moves in iraq maliki was a was a person that the supported by iran and also largely got rid of by iran and i think that is significant and obviously there are there are plenty of areas of agreement even if even if not in public where the u.s. u.k. and iran can engage and can come work because of the threat the threat is to plenty of us whether we're whether we be in london new york. washington. at damascus or tehran if i can go quickly back to you in washington i can there's no political will for that because logically speaking logically speaking if this is the greatest threat to the world right now then you have to forgive a few things and and forget

a few things and you have to deal with people you don't like with iran's one of them again this is an opportunity but because of israel and other lobbies it's not going to happen while the greatest threat in the world continues to scare everybody . well i don't think we can say it's not going to happen it could be happening right now we just don't know that it will after all we're talking to iran about its nuclear program we're doing it openly i mean when you're talking to people and you don't have to stick to the script about you know all we're all going to talk about the nuclear program you could go off into a corner and say what are we can do about isis i mean it's clearly in our interests and obviously if the iranians help with isis we may consider giving them a break somehow on the nuclear program that that's everything you know goes into a somebodies calculations when you're having a negotiation hey if i give up this maybe i'll get that and so would that surprise me at all if there were people who are having those conversations right now but they're not making them public ok if you are in london one of the things i find

quite remarkable particularly in the last ten years is that we just go from one war one conflict one sectarian conflict one after another it's almost if if it's pre or gain it just keeps the region boiling until you can get the right outcome you want because we all agree on this program you know you you you're helping some people that the yemeni enemies of some and then the opposite and you actually have these very strange bedfellows is again if that's part of the calculation in the west particularly washington d.c. where isis is going to go before you make your final bets and who you're going to back in the region. and so it will be puzzling question they have the program move . on with the support of the majority in the car the comes with the we all know what the car the. again the. zam of come out of the car the car those fading away the smaller extreme brought up to parting. london the

clock to and to of national so-called to the most progress and to believe them. we've sort of got to the. the americans on their allies the british as well know post. you know war war war with saddam's a from power strategy and the always making dollars looks like try on our own the expenses of the people of the region. says should be dealt with immediately and they should be stopped literally but that will not. decay them definitely it's a long process. they really want to eradicate them they have to cut off supplies that's not only the money but the pouring of and to nationals to coming from all over the world even from china where the child turns on from the ball cones of from

. these are all using the root of most of them are using the root of turkey this can be whole to again going back to american policy of well i am one of millions of iraqis we don't know what they are planning for to war even ok i know that you know that is one of the most interesting things said on this program today and i want to go to j.c. because do they have any idea what they're doing this is what i've been getting at for a year is right now do they actually have a plan because when we look at what's being said about a year ago about sarin gas in syria i mean it was just a few seconds away from hitting the button until someone said hey this doesn't make any sense at all and then everybody stood back and said yeah you're right i mean do you have it just give any confidence that all the deposit makers particularly in washington have any idea what they're doing or they just winging it. i think there is. there is

a immense feeling that actually that really they don't know what to do and this is the you had also seen a former military figures in the u.k. the other day saying there is no clear strategy and i think again there is this sort of hangover certainly in the u.k. and in the us as well of a hangover by intervention in iraq and that that does dominate any sense of intervention in the region and of course last year in london we had a parliamentary vote which david cameron cameron lost and i think this time if if there were to be a vote on intervention in iraq i don't know whether it would go through but there would be more support for it there are indications certainly in the british public that around forty five percent of people would support british strikes of seymour would more support u.s. air strikes on isis targets in syria and iraq and this is significantly. increased

since the beheading of foley and of course this idea of the very real for it bring it closer to home with actually british extremists being involved in syria in iraq and numbers estimates of around five hundred i think this this is motivating with the public opinion but also political opinion but whether it is just reactionary in terms of responding to this theory that that isis is creating and obviously there is a justification to the hysteria. but if their reaction is also in part hysterical and then there are dangers in a strategy that is dominated by that rarely here in washington you're an inside the beltway there i mean how much is the obama under pressure to do something as they always say something must be done you know he's got midterm elections up and coming up and you know there is this you know that creeping feeling of mission creep here he has to show that he's doing something. as commander in chief because well let's face it his presidency and doesn't have too many foreign policy successes and he

looks weak again is he going to be doing something that may not necessarily be in the national interest but to make a show for the elections going to only a few weeks away well there's obviously the pressure from some people who want him to do something i mean primarily those are the same people who supported the invasion of iraq eleven years ago and i think the verdict on that intervention is clear i mean most americans consider that a mistake even though they didn't like saddam hussein. you know you talk to people inside washington the elites the political elites they favor some kind of action because that's usually what they do you look at poll numbers from you know polls taken throughout the country overwhelmingly not in favor of intervention in syria don't want to send troops back to iraq maybe air strikes because they think airstrikes are relatively antiseptic at least to the people in the airplanes on the ground. there's not an appetite in the united states for you know

a long term commitment of ground troops they don't want to go back into iraq. you know yet they want obama to do something and i think in many cases the best action is to not do anything well you know it doesn't you know the people that want something done they have to make isis look so bad but the baddest of the bad that'll help justify some intervention because there's no you said there's no appetite for zero obviously. well i mean you have to make them look bad and they're doing a great job themselves of making themselves look bad and obviously when you have you know people there killed it's kind of an abstraction you take an american journalist who is there just doing his job and you take him out in the middle of the desert and cut his head off and on the video that you post online that gets a lot of people ok then general media gets a lot of attention yet we're running out of time many thanks my guest in london and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember.

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