economic down in the final. days. and the rest. will be if we. leave you. alone welcome to cross talk all things are considered on peter a little care of in retreat you came civil war has grounded into

a stalemate and the economy is crashing this is created an opening for dialogue will all party seize the moment or will moscow continue to be willing. to cross talk to civil war in ukraine i'm joined by my guest neil clark in london he is a journalist broadcaster and specialist in eastern european affairs in amsterdam we have quarreled and wolf he's an author former correspondent for the dutch blood and a professor emeritus at the university of amsterdam and in st petersburg we cross to gilbert doctorow he's an international affairs analyst with a concentration on russia right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it neal if i can go to you in london i can't think of another political event going on the world right now where there are diametrically opposed narratives we have narratives about ukraine that are coming out in western. and western capitals that are directly opposed to

what. russian would read and alternative media in general how do you explain it i mean this is really a bizarre set of circumstances we all know it's about geopolitics i know but how could we get so far apart. what it really is and i think we could call it all well you know but i think it's beyond orwellian it all started ukraine back in november when we had the first my down protest in the way that those were presented in the western media were very sympathetic to the protesters and we look straight away from watching the b.b.c. or i.t.v. or china or for c.n.n. or any of the western news channels in britain or us that these were supposed to be the good guys and we knew straight away that the bad guy was going to coach the leader of ukraine he was portrayed as a dictator he got the milosevic treatment he was he was a he's been in power for three years or sudden he's this vicious dictator cracking down on democratic protests and i can only contrast the coverage the western news coverage of these protests in the my done with the coverage of very large and to

austerity protests throughout europe in two thousand and twelve and two thousand and thirteen we had fast protesting anti-government protests in spain in italy and greece and yet the trail of these protesters was not sympathetic at all a lot of the time these protests were ignored by the western media and of course we didn't get john mccain flying over for the u.s. to express his solidarity with the protesters and we didn't get to anyone handing out cookies to people protesting in madrid and i think that explains that answer your question the fact is is that the protesters in the my dad were furthering the interests of the powerful western elites whereas the protesters in spain greece and italy were not and so that explains the media coverage from afraid the western news media coverage basically works out that who whichever side is actually pursuing or furthering the interests of the one percent in the west they get the sympathetic treatment and the side they're against is demonized well it doesn't let me go to a living going to amsterdam you can tell that's how it works let me go to cairo if you don't know. it's very interesting is no matter what the narrative is it always

has a certain logic a certain conclusion that somehow it's always rush's fault no matter what happens it's always rush's fault even when it seems in a humanitarian convoy it is considered a total horse which of course you have nato already already in ukraine and knots not criticize a whole even pointed out go ahead call in amsterdam. well i think that what we have seen this boss moan for a little over a month is really extraordinary i cannot remember another all creation where the propaganda that has come from the us and is amplified also in britain has been so brace so unanimously or near unanimously by the european mainstream media it's really extraordinary i have to go back eleven years. preceding the iraq invasion there was a similar wave of propaganda but that time you had

a lot of europeans that didn't go along with this this time it really is so there is no european opposition to wants to me is overused propaganda i mean we just talked about so the protests in november and what people do not realize here in the netherlands or i think most places in europe is the movement was hijacked yes and what happened off towards is a very different story from you know from what people have been told but you see the effect the really this is serious effect of propaganda is that's what the story is disappears in the back of your mind it becomes tested knowledge because it pops up in between the lines of other stories or if articles of book reviews of movie reviews and what have you and it becomes something that people know all too well yes this is right this is ok. it becomes personalized and the back of your mind and

it's not focused on so once it is there it's usually states of that is the power over what i call the test of power of propaganda and how what is happening now of course is very clear we have. an immense peak in this propaganda with the downing over there is this malaysian airliner and a terrible fates of the two hundred ninety eight people onboard now that's was almost sets in stone what actually happened yes and it was based on no evidence whatsoever so we are waiting for a an explanation of the waiting for an investigation and then of course we hear that the parties participating in the investigation the countries that are part of it have signed long. disclose low sure agreements if yeah if no if one of the parties wants to hito it without without giving a reason so we won't gets. an official reports that is this house way

reliable ok ok there we are let me go let me go we got it let me go to gilbert here in st petersburg when i when i look at the western narrative of what's going on in ukraine i notice that it omits so many facts for example look in february see if you read a reuters report or a report from c.n.n. they go from november all the way to the presidential election on may twenty fifth ok may twenty fifth is the day zero they want you to forget everything before that this snipers they want you to forget that you really had too much they could said you know you should nuke the russians you know we have the massacre in in odessa all missions of facts and we go to gilbert in st petersburg this is one of the biggest problems with their narrative. right peter the speaking above coverage and what the public finds in media i think it should be divided into three categories

you've been addressing strictly mass media meaning television meaning the the mainstream newspapers and that is unquestionably feeding off of handouts press releases from from washington meaning meaning from the white house from the state department from senators on capitol hill who have very good soundbites like mr mccain. but that's nothing exceptional to treatment of russia that is simply how the press has has ceased to exist as an independent force in general the then is a second category management thinking the thinking journals the for the for the the intellectuals who are who are who are an elite. the elites i should say and there you've got of picture which is very frightening because it has good

has given particular in the states we have seen over the last six months display of mccarthyism that is conformism that has that has very destructive side to it character assassination has been to this been widely used and which is used to silence anyone who would raise a finger and say that the official narrative has holes in it or subject to question there are such people who raise their hands and they've they've suffered very greatly. and and yet even in that realm in places where the the liberal journals like the the. the new republic with you do you off a and her or her devastating attacks on on the toadies the chick. calls them on the the stooges or apologist for putin you've got

the new york review of books which has otherwise helped held as as the as a as an outlet for the for the liberal salish mint and their featuring the spokesman for my don in the person of timothy snyder yes but they but they're also a few names naysayers and that is that is the nation with steve cohen now i'd like to move to the third category which is i think in terms of where we're going in foreign policy the most important and that is the use as a marker here foreign affairs magazine and we've seen a dramatic evolution from where we stood in february around the time of my dawn to where we are in a september october issue and the publication of john mayer simers devastating attack right on all the underpinnings of american foreign policy ok i kneel before you to jump into a little guy no go ahead karl karl in amsterdam go ahead jump in i agree i think this new because he's going to let me go to karl let me go to karl first go ahead

go ahead. i think that this is you see the especially because of the downing of the airliner there was a mood of hysteria and people with different the different on the standings and also different mollett were scared to open their mouths and then you had stephen khan who opened his mouth and who explained things and of course i personally think that he is the author to go to if you want to understand a the russian deputy an inherited to rule so how he was raked over the coals in a new republic i won't call the new republic anymore a liberal journal by i mean it's not any more than. he said of course it's wonderful it's wonderful to see john murtha shimer now coming out and he is a choice who are you counting or him in the united states and i hope that his voice penetrates to some editorial offices. in europe because he says most of the responsibility lies with the united states and its european allies and he used it

right he also got the same. so i want to give i want to give me your word before we go to the break here go ahead and then we'll go back to st petersburg go ahead go ahead i just want to i just want to talk about this this new mccarthyism which go but touched on i mean i've been a victim of this i think anybody who appears regularly r.t. is a victim of this i gave an interview to r.t. shortly after the mh seventeen tragedy and i simply said we should wait until we have the evidence wait until there's a forensic investigation and i said it was likely impossible. to shut down the plane but i didn't say they definitely did i said we don't know for sure whatever happened until that i was attacked i was labeled all kinds of things. they attacked me on c.n.n. ok gentlemen we're going to go to one short break and after that chopper it will continue our discussion on ukraine stay with our.

your c.v. is bizarre to see it more than the propaganda or film that is the state sponsored russia today programme just words by sabean not like telling them in analyze this present time is just ridiculous non-answer to my question. john is not happy this morning to say see and sometimes their lives all over the wall to bring people stories none the propaganda channel don't want you to see and we come to some. street. we think of why we think there are good.

for all sand beaches. coconut palms gently swaying in the ocean breeze. in fact. white has a deep dark little secret a secret the us government would like you to know. who allegra. bilbo i did dearly for she did a great good all wilderness is. your friend posts a photo from a vacation you can't afford college the difference. the boss repeats the same old joke of course you like. your ex-girlfriend still tends to rejection poetry keep count ignore it. we

post only what really matters at r.t. to your facebook news feed. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm people about your mind who we're discussing the ongoing civil war in ukraine. how can i go back to go bird in st petersburg you know i can't think again again about stories that there has been so little debate allowed debate because everyone gets if you have a dissenting opinion you are. called names you're branded is something that is no one likes to be called

a mouthpiece or anything like that but it seems to me that something is so very important in the relationship that the west has with russia you'd least want to have a little bit more dialogue and say all right everybody has their political coing since stripes are but we're going down a very dangerous we're road here and i think any people and i'm sorry anyone looking at what's going on is that russia makes statements that it sticks to those statements where it does what it says it says what it means so i think this is what really kind of scares me because they see western leaders just being very callous and their behavior and their and their language when it comes to this very important relationship that is deteriorating by the hour go ahead go brit peter if you were callousness than there were suggest a hard headedness that the problem is precisely the folly that is the the risk that we face a lot of people who are finally acknowledge that we're in a new cold war and they go on to say that the situation today is the worst that

it's been since the end of the original cold war i think they're missing a dimension here there's such a version today there's as bad as it's ever been. since the beginning of the first cold war and what is frightening and what leads us through to dismay at times is the flippancy with which our foreign policy elites and our highest politicians have been dealing with russia they have chosen to ignore its nuclear status and it was not an accident that or putin and his seliger talk reminds of the world that russia is a prime nuclear power they have that we have gotten to the point where we are fully living what ronald reagan was trying to create a belief in the myth of star wars a belief or disbelief in mutually assured destruction and if that is true then we are at an unprecedented unprecedented risky situation because it leaves us only

with first strike. never was the case during that i think flippancy go ahead collen amsterdam go ahead gen fantasies if fripp a c. is the right to them to use here but then of course we are dealing with a european political elite that is not of very high caliber you can see this in many respects with that is different subjects subject of course but i think i want to draw attention to one aspect of propaganda and why it is so successful in europe at the moment much more successful than eleven years ago and that is that this notion of without america the world won't work properly has become far more an article of faith in europe it's what i call it let the system atlantis ism is not an american creation it is a european faith and it's a faith all of a political elite that hasn't had to deal with a genuine foreign policy problems at all ever in their entire careers because they

were always comfortably in school most in an hour long. and so they have and they have not realized that american interests have deviated rather significantly from european interests they also have a lot realised that's the opposite of the important instruments of the american states employ importance institutions of the american state lead independent lives of their own and are not affected fully controlled and so here we get out of control. american political entities very influential capable of hijacking hoping to hijack they weren't the only wants this protest movements in kiev and then subsequently through the un and through the channels that of course they have inundates everybody with one little one story with just this is uniform story and it works because you know what we know in the world

through what happens elsewhere we get through english language channels and they happen to be controlled by american and british embassy and this is true for what japan knows about europe i mean i lived a long time in east asia i was correspondent there and was eastern asia knows about western europe they get through english language channels the same is true all of what happens in eastern europe we get this through edits is dead most of the time have made up their minds about it because mainstream media are not scold mainstream for nothing so this is what and how you agree with everyone who says this is so so so this is such a sort of stage because karl let me let me go let me go to nearly i'm going to go to neil in london yes you good yeah you know neal the last time we did a recording of cross talk we did a program on ukraine and i left the studio in my producers said c.n.n.

and the rest of the world says russia is invaded ukraine and i said what. well the dead make any sense to me it all does make it and so i you know i went up to my office i went to my office and i just did a quick review where you thought and i said will someone check the russian wires for me i mean has russia invaded ukraine completely silent and then for the rest to go three or four days up until right now as we speak the invasion is going on why did vague i just can't fathom it but they just turn it around turn it around people very much what like gilbert would say gilbert go ahead jump in real quick yes or turn into a new i think the russian is the you know your front in the room mirror shimer ignored in his study in foreign affairs which otherwise is a bombshell the man is a controversial he has run against the current but he's best known for his work on the israel lobby yeah but he says stunning thing is right assessed is that he

hasn't come out with the war party in washington that is the anti russian lobby we see sanctions today you had a hard time seeing the designs of the observations of our press go back three months six months they don't have a ten year perspective they don't have a three year perspective ok so i want to go back again but i want to go back to london you're going to keep equal time for everyone here you know i agree with what gilbert said neal i mean an editor having a memory what longer than six months is in quite incredible go ahead me london. well we'll go back to that point about the russian invasion ukraine i think russia's invasion of ukraine the vertical this is the two thousand and fourteen equivalent of saddam's weapons of mass destruction of two thousand and three it's the mantra that's repeated ad nauseum almost every day by the neo cons in the photo left on the basis that if they say enough times people are going to believe it's bound to be true just as they claim that saddam had w m d's in two thousand and three and of course it's the same war party who is fueling this russia phobia who

is feeling this is fueling the situation of this war against russia this cold war against russia it's the zionist lobby and it's the neo cons that let's be honest about it and design this lobby particularly has russian sites over russia as they say as they play russia for blocking regime change in syria because the removal of the secular parties government in syria is a key strategic aim of israel and it's no coincidence that if you look on the website the people attacking r t on a regular basis the people who are attacking putin on a regular basis are all zionists and all of them are strong zionists so this is got to be discussed and i think there are unfortunately these neo-cons the zionists are very small percentage of the population but there are about seventy percent of the commentary at in britain and america so you pick up yeah you hear i don't read the first thing you read is an anti putin diatribe then you hear an anti russian then you hear pro ukrainian and these people dominate i'm afraid dominate the media the neo con or fake left zionist views they're not the views of the majority of people and that's that if i connect well that explains why millions of people are watching

all of these other channels ok go ahead carl in amsterdam jump in if you if i could jump in with what you say i see you do see is correct in the european side of that so i want to come back to atlanta says i'm atlanta system is a historical it has its own history and so whatever all there for undermines the notion that without the united states things won't work it's discarded it has to be because at the end the system wouldn't survive i've called it a faith and it has the characteristics or. face of an ideology and of course this is what makes this propaganda so powerful but now it's possible for how with. shimer and perhaps with stephen calm penetrating regularly because the mercian of her article is very young and gradually and people in europe become fatigued with this propaganda wave and of course when they start and i mean sitting in wales with

nato and starts threatening russia further we made good i hope we may get a different reaction we may get some revision here in this program ok gilbert in st petersburg they think they can have regime is in pretty bad shape it's in retreat right now it's sitting on an economy that is completely caving winter is coming there's no gas supply agreement with russia do you think that under the auspices of nato e.u. or some combination thereof they're going to protect this regime because again western media what the mainstream media doesn't even want to talk about the nature of the regime in canada and it's very unsavory characters that the u.s. is primarily protecting here the e.u. shame on the e.u. for not even recognizing the kind of people that are in that government do you think that this is what would be the tipping point here because that would seem is not as stable as the media wants you to know. but greta it's not stable and we're all going to watch this space in october and november to see whether there is an

economic implosion in ukraine but i cannot cannot begin to imagine that either the e.u. or the united states will step forward with the kind of funds that are essential if ukraine is going to stay afloat this is all the more troops across so much of the incoming money has been spent or is being spent on the military campaign of the destruction of the south a little or no in ukraine it's probably being stolen is well keep going to gilbert go ahead. well i really have nothing to add on that it's. so our past to pass the baton ok neil i'll give you the last word on the program here this is it tour is going to create reaction don't go ahead it is actually go back to me carol said very important point you talked about atlantis is in the europe and i think the european elites have become incredibly atlanticist in the last forty or fifty years or thirty years and much more zionist let's think back to quality fifty years ago who was ruling who were the leaders of europe to go all bruno kreisky in austria all of palma all great people who put european interests first in the

interest of that country's first now we've got puppets of the united states puppets of israel holland merkel rubbish you know european leaders to stick up for european interest and they're not doing this because the last thing you need is a cold war with russia and that's what we get while the heating on your first time you're absolutely did a tour in a policy decision was to do this in ukraine it's been a big epic fail or run out of time gentlemen many thanks to my guests in london amsterdam and in st petersburg and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember us topples.

do we speak your language or not at the. news programs and documentaries in spanish what matters to you breaking news a little turn to defang goals hidden stories or. are you here to see that troy altie spanish find out more visit. walking one of the walt he's from.

egypt believe that it needs to sound good to swivel school closely to be. used to. almost all tall and beautiful. and see the series of explosions going off base a try to. see people going to make it more. like iraq or it's a short changing every minute and. played such a low dollar law no weapons of my own life would have to.

play was close to six times lenski says those leads one to blame sometimes for nothing which lead to silly and simple steps to it's not just leave but still we can still be judged if you see a stage eight look to see which was the jungle was telling. the lands. playing lead. differently here in syria now many of the members of congress of both parties who have gone to syria in recent months have said they believe he's a reformer mr president that we choose diddy's time for him to get good sleep and still be at least two sure you remember most of the stuff to.

lose players. here backtracked on his initial decision to commit to a permanent ceasefire needs to cry conditions for a truce instead. ukrainian government's approved a bill to cancel the country's nonaligned status asking nato to take it in. and russian journalist andre send in has been confirmed killed a month after going missing in eastern ukraine.