clearly. you know we're going to. leave. hello and welcome to cross talk all things considered i'm peter a little kid in retreat u.k. and civil war has grounded into a stalemate and the economy is crashing this is created an opening for dialogue will all party seize the moment or will moscow continue to be willing. to cross talk to civil war in ukraine i'm joined by my guest neil clark in london

he is a journalist broadcaster and specialist in eastern european affairs in amsterdam we have quarreled and wolf he's an author former correspondent for the dutch blood and a professor emeritus at the university of amsterdam and in st petersburg cross to gilbert doctorow he's an international affairs analyst with a concentration on russia right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it neal if i go to you in london i can't think of another political event going on the world right now where there are diametrically opposed narratives we have narratives about ukraine that are coming out in western media and western capitals that are directly opposed to what average russian would read and alternative media in general how do you explain it i mean this is really a bizarre set of circumstances we all know it's about geopolitics i know but how can we get so far apart. when it really is and i think we could but i think it's beyond oh well you know all. back in november when we had the first my down protest

in the way that those were presented in the western media were very sympathetic to the protesters and we look straight away from watching the b.b.c. or i.t.v. or china or for c.n.n. or any of the western news channels in britain or us that these were supposed to be the good guys and when you straight away that the bad guy was going to coach the leader of ukraine he was portrayed as a dictator he got the milosevic treatment he was he was a he's been in power for three years or sudden he's this vicious dictator clamping down on democratic protests and i can only contrast the coverage the west the news coverage of these protests in them i done with the coverage of a very large and to austerity protests throughout europe in two thousand and twelve and two thousand and thirteen we had fast protests the anti-government protests in spain in one thousand eight hundred greece and yet the trail of these protesters was not sympathetic at all a lot of the time these protests were ignored by the western media and of course we didn't get john mccain flying over for the u.s. to express his solidarity with the protesters and we didn't get the handing out

cookies to people protesting in madrid and i think that explains a lot to your question the fact is is that the protesters in the my dad were furthering the interests of the powerful western elites whereas the protesters in spain and greece and italy were not and so that explains the media coverage from afraid the western news media coverage basically works out that who whichever side is actually pursuing or furthering the interests of the one percent in the west they get the sympathetic treatment and the side they're against is demonized well it doesn't let me go to a living going to amsterdam you can tell that's how it works let me go to karl in amsterdam it's very interesting is no matter what the narrative is it always has a certain logic a certain conclusion that somehow it's always russia's fault no matter what happens it's always russia's fault even when it sends in a humanitarian convoy it is considered a trojan horse which of course you have nato already already in ukraine and not is not. besides

a whole even pointed out go ahead call in amsterdam. well i think the vote we have seen this boss moan for a little over a month is really extraordinary i cannot remember another all creation with the propaganda that has come from the us and as amplified also in britain has being so braced so unanimously or near unanimously by the european mainstream media it's really extraordinary i have to go back eleven years. you know preceding the iraq invasion there was a similar wave of propaganda but that time you had a lot of europeans that didn't go along with this this time it really is so there is no european opposition to wants to me is overused propaganda i mean we just talked about the protests in november and what people do not realize here in the netherlands or i think most places in europe is the movement was hijacked yes

and what happened off towards is a very different story from you know from what people have been told but you see the effect the really this is serious effect of propaganda is that's what the story is disappears in the back of your mind it becomes tested knowledge because it pops up in between the lines of other stories off articles of book reviews of movie reviews and what have you and it becomes something that people know all too well yes this is right this is ok it becomes personalized and the back of your mind and it's not focused on so once it is there it's usually stay so that is the power of what i call the test of power of propaganda and how what is happening now of course is very clear we have a an immense peak in this propaganda with the downing all. there is this malaysian

airliner and a terrible fates of the two hundred ninety eight people aboard now that's was almost set in stone what actually happened and it was based on no evidence whatsoever so we are waiting for an area next for the issue of the waiting for an investigation and then of course we hear that the parties participating in the investigation the countries that are part of it have signed. a norm is going to slow sure grima if you know if no if one of the parties wants to hito it without giving a reason so we won't get it's yeah an official reports that is this house way reliable ok ok there we are let me go let me go we got it let me go to gilbert here in st petersburg i when i when i look at the western narrative of what's going on in ukraine i notice that it omits so many facts for example look in february see if you read a reuters report or a report from c.n.n.

they go from november all the way to the presidential election on may twenty fifth ok may twenty fifth is the day zero they want you to forget everything before that the snipers they want you to forget that you really have too much said you know you should nuke the russians you know we have the massacre in in odessa all missions of facts and we go to gilbert in st petersburg this is one of the biggest problems with their narrative. right peter the speaking above coverage and what the public finds in media i think it should be divided into three categories you've been addressing strictly mass media meaning television meaning the the mainstream newspapers and that is unquestionably feeding off of handouts press releases from from washington meaning meeting from the white house from the state department from

senators on capitol hill who have very good soundbites like mr mccain. but that's nothing exceptional to treatment of russia that is simply how the press has has ceased to exist as an independent force in general the there's a second category many is rethinking the thinking journals the for the for the the intellectuals who are who are who are an elite. the elites i should say and there you've got of picture which is very frightening because it has good has given particular in the states we have seen over the last six months display of mccarthyism that is conformism that has that has very destructive side to it character assassination has been to this been widely used and which is used to silence anyone who would raise a finger and say that the fischel narrative has holes in it or subject to question

there are such people who raise their hands and they've they've suffered very greatly. and and yet even in that realm in places where the the liberal journals like the the. the new republic with you do you off a and her or her devastating attacks on on the toadies the chick. all of them on the the stooges or apologists for putin you've got the new york review of books which is otherwise hell upheld as the as the as a as an outlet for the for the liberal salish mint and there featuring the spokesman for my don in the person of timothy snyder yes but they but there are also a few names naysayers and that is that is the nation which steve cohen now i'd like to move to the third category which is i think in terms of where we're going in

foreign policy the most important and that is the use as a marker here foreign affairs magazine and we've seen a dramatic evolution from where we stood in february around the time of my dawn to where we are in a september october issue and the publication of john mayer simers devastating attack right on all the underpinnings of american foreign policy ok i kneel before you want to jump a little guy no go ahead karl karl in amsterdam go ahead jump in i agree i think this new mccall he's in for it let me go to karl let me go to karl first go ahead go ahead. i think that this is you see the especially because of the downing of the airliner there was a mood of hysteria and people with different but different on the standings and also different mollett were scared to open their mouths and then you had steven calm who opened his mouth and who explained things and of course i personally think

that he is the author to go to if you want to understand a the russia deputy an inherited to rule so he was raked over the coals in a new republic i won't call the new republic anymore a liberal journal by i mean it's not any more than. he said of course it's wonderful it's wonderful to see john murtha shimer now coming out and he is a choice who are you counting or him in the united states and i hope that his voice penetrates to some editorial offices. in europe because he says most awfully responsibility lies with the united states and its european allies and he's dead right legal so ok let me just make sure i want to give i want to give me your word before we go to the break here go ahead and then we'll go back to st petersburg go ahead go ahead i just want to i just want to talk about this this new mccarthyism which go but touched on i mean i've been a victim of this i think anybody who appears regular an r.t. is a victim of this i gave an interview to r.t. shortly after the mh seventeen tragedy and i simply said we should wait until we

have the evidence wait until it's a forensic investigation and i said it was likely impossible you know authorities to shut down the plane but i didn't say they definitely did i said we don't know for sure whatever happened until that i was attacked i was labeled all kinds of things. they attacked me on c.n.n. ok gentlemen we're going to go to one short break and after that your press will continue our discussion on ukraine stay with art.

probably get in the boat that is the state sponsor of russia today program ships were sabean not like. that is just ridiculous non answer to my question. john is not the. safety and sometimes their lives to bring people stories on the propaganda channel don't want to see. some. i'm not a politician but we see that it is arab countries that sit on the world's greatest the reserves and the west just cannot stay away from such tremendous wealth so in order to get their heads up that oil the west employs when i was cultural terrorist .

welcome back to cross talk we're all things we're considered on peter all about joe mind you were discussing the ongoing civil war in ukraine. ok i have to go back to go bird in st petersburg you know i can't think again again about stories that there has been so little debate allowed debate because everyone gets if you have a dissenting opinion you are. called names your branded is as something that is. no one likes to be called a mouthpiece or anything like that but it seems to me that something is so very important the relationship that the west has with russia you'd least want to have a little bit more dialogue in say alright everybody has their political colorings

and stripes here but we're going down a very dangerous we're road here and i think any people and i'm sorry anyone looking at what's going on is that russia makes statements that it sticks to those statements where it does what it says it says what it means so i think this is what really kind of scares me because they see western leaders just being very callous and their behavior and their in their language when it comes to this very important relationship that is deteriorating by the hour go ahead go brit peter if you were callousness than there were suggest a hard headedness that the problem is precisely the folly that is the risk that we face a lot of people who are finally acknowledge that we're in a new cold war and they go on to say that the situation today is the worst that it's been since the end of the original cold war i think they're missing the dimension here the situation today is as bad as it's ever been since the beginning

of the first cold war and what is frightening and what leads us through to dismay at times is the flippancy with which our foreign policy leads and our highest politicians have been dealing with russia they have chosen to ignore its nuclear status and it was not an accident that putin and his seliger talk reminds of the world the russia is a prime nuclear power they have we have gotten to the point where we are for living what ronald reagan was trying to create a belief in the myth of star wars a belief or disbelief in mutually assured destruction and if that is true then we are at and on press the. and unprecedented risky situation because it leaves us only with first strike. never was the case during that i think flippancy go ahead collen amsterdam go ahead jen fantasies if fripp to see is the rights to them to

use here but then of course we are dealing with a european political elite that is not all very high caliber you can see this in many respects or that is a different subjects subject of course but i think i want to draw attention to one aspect of propaganda and why it is so successful in the europa at the moment much more successful than it live and years ago and that is this notion of without america the world won't work properly has become far more an article of faith in europe it's what i call it let the system atlantis ism is not an american creation it is a european faith and it's a face all of a political elite that hasn't had to deal with a genuine foreign policy problems at all ever in their entire careers because they were always comfortably in school most in an alliance so they have and they have

not realized that american interests have deviated rather significantly from european interests they also have a lot realised that's the opposite the important instruments of the american states employ important institutions of the american state lead independent lives of their own and are not effectively controlled and so here we get out of control. american political entities very influential capable of hijacking hoping to hijack they weren't the only wants this protest movements in kiev and then subsequently through the un and through the channels that of course they have inundates everybody with one little one story with. just this is uniform story and it works because you know what we know in the world through what happens elsewhere we get through english language channels and they happen to be controlled

by american and british evidences and this is true for what japan knows about europe i mean i lived a long time in east asia i was correspondent there and was eastern asia knows about western europe they get through english language channels the same is true over what happens in eastern europe we get this through and it's as dead most of the time have made of their minds about it because mainstream media are not scold mainstream for nothing so this is what it is and how you agree with everyone who says this is so so so this is such a sort of stage because car let me let me go to be good at nearly or let me go to neil in london hear you good yeah you know neal the last time we did a recording of crosstalk we did a program on ukraine and i left the studio in my producers said c.n.n. and the rest of the world says russia is invaded ukraine and i said what well the

did make any sense to me it all does make it and so i you know i went up to my office i went to my office and i just did a quick review where you thought and i said will someone check the russian wires for me i mean has russia invaded ukraine completely silent and then for the rest to go three or four days up until right now as we speak the invasion is going on what invasion i just can't fathom it but they just turn it around turn it around well it's a very much what like gilbert would say gilbert go ahead jump in real quick yes or turn into a canoe i think the russian is the front in the room mirror shimer ignored in his study in foreign affairs which otherwise is a bombshell the man is a controversial he has run against the current but he's best known for his work on his. israel lobby yeah but the system think is right assessed is that he hasn't come out with the war party in washington that is the anti russian lobby we see sanctions today you had

a hard time seeing the designs of the observations of our press go back three months six months they don't have a ten year perspective they don't have a three year perspective ok so i want to go back again but i want to go back to london you're going to keep equal time for everyone here you know i agree with what gilbert said neal i mean an editor having a memory what longer than six months is incredible go ahead neal in london. well we'll go back to that point about the russian invasion ukraine i think russia's invasion of ukraine you vertical this is the two thousand and fourteen equivalent of saddam's weapons of mass destruction of two thousand and three it's the mantra that's repeated ad nauseum almost every day by the neo cons in the photo left on the basis that if they say enough times people are going to believe it's bound to be true just as they claim that saddam had w m d's in two thousand and three and of course it's the same war party who is fueling this russia phobia who is feeling this is fueling the situation of this war against russia this cold war against russia it's the zionist lobby and it's the neo cons that let's be honest about it and design its lobby particularly has russia its sights over russia as they say as

they play russia pub locking regime change in syria because the removal of the secular parties government in syria is a key strategic aim of israel and it's no coincidence that if you look on the website the people attacking our t. on a regular basis the people who are attacking putin on a regular basis are all zionists and all of them are strong zionists so this is got to be discussed and i think there are unfortunately these neo cons the zionists are very small percentage of the population but there are about seventy percent of the commentary at in britain and america so you pick up yeah you hear i don't read the first thing you read is an anti putin diatribe then you hear an anti russian then you hear pro ukrainian and these people dominate i'm afraid dominate the media the neo con or fake left zionist views they're not the views of the majority of people and that's that it's going to act well that explains why millions of people are walking dead of these other channels ok go ahead carl in amsterdam jump in if you if i could jump in with what you say i see abuse is correct in the european side of

that so i want to come back to atlanta says i'm atlanta says it is a historical it has its own history and so whatever all there for undermines the notion that without the united states things won't work it's discarded it has to be because then the system wouldn't survive i've called it a faith and it has the characteristics or. face of an ideology and of course this is what makes this propaganda so powerful but now it's possible for how with. shimer and perhaps with stephen calm penetrating gradually because the mercian are article is very young and gradually and people in europe become fatigued with this propaganda wave and of course when they start and i mean sitting in wales with nato and starts threatening russia further we may gets i hope we may get a different reaction we may get some revision here in this program ok gilbert in st

petersburg they think they can have regime is in pretty bad shape it's in retreat right now it's sitting on an economy that is completely caving winter is coming there's no gas supply agreement with russia do you think that under the auspices of nato e.u. or some combination thereof they're going to protect this regime because again western media what the mainstream media doesn't like to talk about the nature of the regime in canada and it's very unsavory characters that the u.s. is primarily protecting here the e.u. shame on the e.u. for not even recognizing the kind of people that are in that government do you think that this is what would be the tipping point here because that would seem is not as stable as the media wants you to know. but greta it's not stable and we're all going to watch this space in october and november to see whether there is an economic implosion in ukraine but i cannot i cannot begin to imagine that either the e.u.

or the united states will step forward with the kind of funds that are essential if ukraine is going to stay afloat this is all the more troops across so much of the incoming money has been spent or is being spent on the military campaign of the destruction of the sound or knowing ukraine is probably being stolen is well keep going to gilbert go ahead. well i really have nothing to add on that it's. so our past to pass the baton ok neil i'll give you the last word on the program here this is it tour is going to correctly won't go ahead it is actually go back to carol said very important point you talked about atlantis is in the europe and i think the european elites have become incredibly atlanticist in the last forty or fifty years or thirty years and much more scientists let's think back to quality fifty years ago who was ruling who were the leaders of europe go all bruno kreisky in austria all of palma or great people who put european interests first in the interests of that country's first now we've got puppets of the united states puppets of israel holland merkel rubbish you know european leaders who stick up for

european interests and they're not doing this because the last thing you need is a cold war with russia and that's what we get now the heating on your first time you're absolutely did i'm sure in a policy decision was to do this in ukraine it's a bit of an epic epic fail we're run out of time gentlemen many thanks to my guests in london amsterdam and in st petersburg and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember us topples. if you want people to watch movies from. the budget

some good evidence to some groups will books will mostly be construed to be. mostly just almost all for being formed. the worst school lisa tried to claim the people are going to. want to get fired for destroying the teaching every minute the love the money the law the weapons

and why a law like the claim. was false to say . the base case is the most elite moment subsistence for nothing of the us this season and it's improvements to the search teams look just give up the story can still be just if you see the stage seem to hate looking things up but the jungle wasn't selling. the bomb. anything. why we think that there are no. beaches. coconut palms gently swaying in the ocean breeze. and frank. why he has a deep dark little secret a secret the u.s.

government would like you to know about. through all a. little ball i did dearly succeeded ok good all will. be. the north atlantic treaty organization are more some play nine holes. i would like to invite the secretary general as well as the presidents of albanian croatia to join me you'll have nato roadmap for the next ten years.

put it on your cultural common ally should be spanking new polish face either side you know. a pleasure to have you with us here today i'm sure. it'll be right on the seat. on the first street. and i think the troops. on a reporter's. instrument. to be in the.

i.p.l. moscow time but in a potent proposes steps for peace between ukraine's warring sides said his latest phone conversation with president poroshenko showed they see. the crisis is seeing differently by the u.s. leader who accuses russia of ignoring diplomatic solutions. and. russian journalist andre stunning has been confirmed killed among the going missing plane come. on washington says the video showing a second american journalist being executed by islamic state terrorists in iraq is apparently all thank you.