when the ruling classes protect themselves. with the famous merry go round certainly the one percent. we can all middle of the room say. really. really low.

well welcome to sophie and komi sophie shevardnadze nato is joining the global fight against islamic state but what's to action plan behind the bold declaration. of the military alliance be able to reinvent itself in the face of changing threats to talk about this and war we're joined by a former deputy secretary general of nato i sounded on when you thought it so. isolationists schools appear to be damaging to you. as europe is criticized by the u.s. president for failing to show financial commitment to the long decades old alliance is now feeling the pressure with the e.u. seemingly ready to take its security into its own hands in a few radical european army replace them waits on the transatlantic alliance is the

current disagreement just a passing cloud or will it be the catalyst of an unraveling of seventy years of western. sound that will mean the former deputy secretary general of nato welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us now sir at the latest nato summit startled strong scald its alliance members for not pulling their weight financially in fact if they effectively for not contributing two percent of their g.d.p. to defense but since it's the united states that will to most influence in the alliance isn't it fair washington pays to lion's share all for expansive well you know destroy. is an old frame and is not stated by a lawyer if there's a target which. has been assigned for a few years ago. truly the most old european pop those old made up don't pay go up to two percent but let's say there is no magic because. there are also other

feelings that the european allies do like like participating in nato operations which are not counted in this family stupor sime account you see so as a complicated issue certainly what is true is that there's probably the counters would be spending more in the future but how much and in which way is this still going to say that nato is now joining the anti isis coalition but what's to point of doing that i mean most nato countries with serious military capability are already fighting islamic state is the u.s. led coalition really in need of support from i don't know let's say iceland military for example well i can tell you you know as you are say rightly over a war most all of the nato allies are participating in the n.t. eyes as a pressure but not the nato isaf so the decision which has been taken

a few days ago in brussels is mainly a political decision a symbolic one if you like i mean it does not involve i want to be clear on that it does not involve comical but i actions and the nato flag it is out of question georgia will be a political if you like signal and perhaps some nato assets will be used like the i walks like the unocal missiles planes you know and perhaps training you know and education on this kind of things but no call button on the ground. so if nato isn't going to commit specific troops to the anti isis five how will it go about its participation within the coalition. oh as they say to be fall you know in fact nato has been already linked in practice to do many many things you know o.d.d. as they can play these he made all the nato headquarters their offices but it does

not ever be an official if you like now it is officially they say you have to take it more as a political symbol it's a lie. than a change of the situation on the ground i figure it will change a little on the ground exactly so secretary stockton burke sad that nato joining the anti isis five cents a strong political message and message to whom well it's from political meza is a strong political message in fact. they say that you know there are many things that nato and rule which i've known to come before the russians you know like for you cell phones do not a short or bike or a cone of silence all rely on or like training or a short in value is ways you know yes but the question was. this is a message to whom one date the nato secretary general mean this sends

a strong player and i would say if. it deployed to get a message is that. they troll recognizes a socks the french or terror room. credit i understand also by russia by any way coming from that bottle and longs to be fully visible in the fight against those extremist groups this is the political message what is happening is that. that is certainly mounting frett from extremist groups let's say in the region will be you know precise and major always trying to raise its visibility against that but of course of the issue is that naval wants to raise its was ability and its support but not to the point or entering into combat the pressure you see there is some of the line. still present trump was expected to reassure

nato allies of his commitment to article five that's a clause that treats an attack on a nato member as an attack on all but he didn't do that in his speech the media is saying that means washington isn't ready to defend its allies what do you think the strums behavior indicate just that i don't know i don't know i kind of raid into the mind of the president of united states what i can tell you is that you know i prefer to. look at what she does rather than want to say is you know so i don't know why you didn't mention but i'm annoyed with seeing the future exactly you know we are still in the first few of homes of his presidency so i imagine he's also in the living you probably you know trying to figure out what serious policy should be for the rest of his i suppose so i would not really gave

too much attention to a sentence or another sometimes there's talk now in the you of a common european army words that leave nato will it become redundant. my you know this is a get you a sweet you know difficult question of the kind of b. . in further cycles european army is you know i think is a wrong way of. speaking about european defense policy because it is no european army and i don't think that it would be any utopian army less europe is united politically which i don't see it's really happening in the next serious atlas to say things diplomatically so in fact what is happening on the european side is to try to. let's say better utilize existing the sources to optimize for things and to reduce the

how can i say the duplications that exist among european armies because if you take it up here in union you see twenty eight or twenty seven european armies and they duplicate in many things so this is an effort which is going to take place bought and here i have a clear ideas about it this is not going to be an european army in any way. and german chancellor angela merkel is saying that here of can no longer rely on others and that that's a quote europeans have to take their fate into their own hands do you agree or do you think the e.u. has been too dependent on the united states for example well i don't know you know because it is very difficult how can i say to say to judge a policy of a big country only on to the club rational may do it in a letter of complaint so i don't have an idea what mrs macken has in mind. to

buy mine for for by experience i thing the nato will stay on because you know nato is useful as a practical tool and that is no reason to my mind. soul you know it is not in going to the actual with the fact that you can stand for european union or you know there are ways you know like three like environment like instructor or finds a micro biome is policy you know all those things that are made of things existing beyond the fast so we don't do frank immediately when for america to see the saying that's just became old it will be on me i don't think so don't trump also advise nato to maybe focus on terrorism and immigration do you think the lions should be doing the job of the european border guard. frankly speaking of disobedience you don't do these asop throughline you know they do the softer line between you know

a military pressure on and the rescue operation i don't think that nato really as much of their role can be going to have some role monsanto not a major role. nato played a big part in khadafi its overthrow in libya and you're saying its aftermath has spread instability and jihad isn't in africa does nato have a responsibility to do something about that seeing how its actions cost a callus in the first place i was thinking then it's off to come pay should have been involved in institution building and then trying to ring false. security apart. by helps even the army in a good sense i mean not against anybody but just to help to create a stable state and i think it was a mistake on the side though they don't want to do that from the beginning you know this i think that we have to admit in my view a day it's off to go but a short short of going to. creating institutional see libya especially of security

decide. all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking with an astounding all the meaning so former deputy secretary general of nato talking about the alliances standoff with russia and the future of its policy in the eastern hero states with us.

this is another post deficiency of. how. the new law is. going to live both of those fellows if. you. just. have to leave the last that you can be the barbecue or not that i. was i don't know that my own itself was ok. but the investigate i'm a selfish first behavior as well. i'll take drugs and what end up being a presence here. many people as you close. this

talk about blackness and the blues of being black. and always will in a big house don't know any steps what i've been told but it was simply that we in remains as such because we simply forgot i don't believe. the scene we've allowed them to rearrange the plane you've told us the sickness of trusting the enemy we came to face. and that's what i call the lack of blackness or understanding the blues of being black. sheep the blues of being black should mandate that we attack knowing how when and what to do to come to simple in his national has been begged a simpler time the feeling bill. it's black and blue. the.

i went back was that a sound of me military to all former deputy secretary general of nato talking about nato expansion into europe band they resulting tension with moscow welcome back to the show certain ages decisions are made by concessive order it is easy to reach a consensus when the interests of any asked the way out of canada are so different

well of course the question is a good question that it will be allowed but told me it all it has been it is more difficult to fall before during the cold war it was ready clear all over one side was all new although it was ripe to be taken in this case is not so easy that it was befall so your right this is are making is is complicated still it looks you know. now turkey on the ground i mean to some extent that list well nowadays turkey occupies a case body nato it has to alliance is second largest conventional army but should nato be concerned with the latest developments in turkey for instance the present are now gone given can sell sweeping new powers purging the military accent or up or is turkish strategic importance too high in nato will close its eyes only accusations so transgressions of democracy. where you know this is very difficult

is a question nato has turkey is a member this is a long time and did a leisure ship as the it's always been easy because turkey you know for that you also have a geographical border war your view is not really old the same aside let's say all the older nato countries as old bay have different interests nevertheless i would say so far in the history on nato compromises has always been a show india cannot say to speak about the future and she too i should have certainly believes is right to go fused but you know i would not the the cry of the let's say the death all of. these of a nato or the other way around yes some argue turkey is unpredictable behavior its military action in iraq and syria that with russia blocking the asterisk operation with nato turns it into more of a liability than

a benefit to the alliance what do you think. well you know what i think frankly speaking is that the situation in the middle east is extremely confused radical confused i don't see clear out of cat strategies any way i only see tactical things you know things good for today or tomorrow. you have teams of conses for with a brief period of time and then you know divorce immediately i think that's. a bad historical moment in the middle east and it is very difficult to predict how things will become of cos we read every day in the newspaper and that all the vinyl is giving judgment on this and that but if you look at the end of the story i see that the middle east of today is very different from the middle east of twelve eleven of the so-called arab spring and is very difficult to predict thing with there in which direction it will go so this is really my answer to that so what do

you think when will they test enlargements drive finally slow down i mean seeing how many vigorous objections russia made to it is nato moving eastwards just to spite moscow where you're speaking about a lot of us or nato yes. well you know as a lot of the day it's always something to be discussed i think practical that needle has more or less is maximum it stands i think i don't know all of which is of course possible but for the time being i don't see you accessions tornado front to speaking because as you know for the country to be called bottle gun is ashura you need first of all in a quest by the country and i don't see anybody for a moment askin to join mitchell and a little behind the thing that also nato up perhaps as don't be upper tied. to

extend beyond the pull of the borders well actually latest addition to nato is montenegro it happened recently and that's a small nation in the balkans was last than two thousand military personnel what's the point in welcoming a state with no military strength into a military alliance what wol is it going to play in your opinion. well i tell you this is a good point if you like because it is a question that you have been asked of the past i remember that when. i mean of things have changed in europe because of the dissolution of the it was latvia you remember all those was the question about the future when a the was asked and the question that you're asking me was asked in the south that should we also have a decide you're going to counties with little military capacity and then do this kushal went on for years that in the end the decision which has been taken

is that if there are these the political will of any specific independent government dorrit you're going to show. it would be anywhere useful for the country and for the alliance also for the country because that would imply for the country in question perhaps you are have you have wanted a reminder maybe it would be good to have some reforms because a lot of facts don't belong into a large international got is there. i don't think this is going to change nature of late on in. you know nato to get out all today there was a county ok but here's another example nato promised governments in ukraine and other acts soviet countries eventually membership. when a confrontation with russia came nato did nothing to help why stare up false hope saying give up promises of defense that you can't keep. well is not such a simple story in fact and as far as i know there had been no request from grain to

join nato show this question is not on the table in nato as far as i know is not on the table it to my mind they did i express it a personal opinion is not to be on the table for the next two years i think that. this is to ash and over nato as it is to me irrational i don't see who crave because me a member certainly not in the next you yes perhaps in the middle to am i why you know what i mean but not now so i don't think there should be a concern about that this is my by personal opinion i think there is a lot of confusion about that and of calls that have different opinions about the body my mind is. this is the this is this is the where there is cooperation between nato and crane why don't. bothers you for peace supported training but this is not nato membership this is something else so i think you should not be freaking about it here nato is deploying troops to poland and the baltic states in the biggest

built up of forces an issue in europe since the cold war the move was are actually leading to retaliation from russia you know deploying whistles in kaliningrad while they do insist it doesn't want an arms race it is actually provoking just that wouldn't you agree. well i don't know again you know there are a lot of emotional scene that bottle the world. we have told you about in seoul a game is very difficult to make a not so difficult to make a difference between because rational political the player that he and reality if you're talking about military presence of nato countries in the. hall and above the continent in fact that was decided it was decided last year in warsaw user remember and the reason is very simple. some governments of the elias say that they wanted to have some military presence

because there's no nato because the older why there would be assault got to go to be the member states that was doing is a which was a bible of the old us and i know that at these i figure on their way sounds bold deployments in that bottle we were all but i think again this is rather symbolic and it is more it does more the political meaning that a military one and anyway don't forget that there is a rotation so as a sort of are going to say the most pressure all sorted out at the but i wouldn't go beyond that. nato calls its approach to russia a combination of defense and dialogue however while she doesn't see nato as deployments on its borders as that the fans does that mean there is not going to be any min in full dialogue either. oh you know i think they'll be better because this is an important point this question that you ask is a very bold one what i think is that there would it is no cold war animal the cold

war there was a bit only one it is finished so i don't figure that we're out in a situation of a cold war made the way for no i think this is all or what is the difference between they feel confident russia is oldest some specific points one is the next session although. the older one is a separate appeasement dumbass they are specific points although unilateral change aboard those on the other hand that is a local call but i actually know that as you know got his own foreign something sayas of us in many older areas which is not to me a dumbass so again i mean you know i would not them except if you get a. poll on foreign minister has urged nato to continue talks with russia to ensure that their alliances military activities in the country aren't considered a provocation in moscow and he's got

a point with so much military amassed at the borders on both sides what happens if there was an accidental encounter. you know you are told here about will suffer this from time to time i read in the newspaper but really you know what to think of that war today you wrote is absurd is incredible is. ok as an imagination i feel a little bit and i am not you know i'm not talking about war all i'm saying is that accidents happen they happen all the time and that can provoke a full fledged war. what about you know effects of them that happen. i mean does it be in the control of accident you know the feelings become dangerous when you have an accident and there's escapes do all right pressure to be all the dominator vx so that it does not happen so far they feel they are already careful to look at that and to be sure other doesn't happen why should the accident ledger or. size

happen all of us are the let's hope not if you like there was a the accidental to play bit which was. let's say killed for us to go or gone bust that was a major accident but after that i haven't seen things of that kind happening anymore luckily. well what can i say mr minutes to read so i really enjoyed talking to you and it's such a pity that you are not the current secretary general of nato things would have been much better off of that was the case thanks a lot for this interview or talking to allison gilman is our rate so a former deputy secretary general of nato discussing the alliances latest pledge to fight terrorism and how the nato russia relationship is likely to shape up in the future that's it for this edition of sophia and call see you next.

week. oh. it was the love interest. social environment. right. chemical discoveries over the last century made

every day life easier but at what cost this is cereal is exceptionally sick. no wonder it's confidential. says since the years old industrial giants reap the benefit ignoring the caused by chemical production. you know as if these people aren't people just experimental animals decades later the toxic environment continues to poison lives and we found these astronomically high levels of dioxin levels that my staff think maybe some of the highest levels ever found in the united states for almost thirty years this very serious problem had not actually been addressed what will that investigation into the chemical industry secrets revealed. this respect. the earth there's. what politicians do. they put

themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. or something want to. have to go right to the press that's what before three of them or can't be good. i'm interested in the waters and. they should. seem wrong. well. to shape our. active. engagement equals betrayal. when some find themselves worlds apart. look for common ground.

to. live up to international this monday morning breaking news a van drives into a crowd of pedestrians outside a mosque in north london it's left one person dead and several more injured. british prime minister to resign may says the instance being treated as a potential terrorist attack as london's counter terror police open investigation all the latest on that to come in the next thirty minutes of news plus two. conflicting claims over the downing of a syrian fighter jet by the american military over a battle ground that's disputed by u.s. but forces islamic state and the syrian government real complicated picture will try and unravel it. or.