the scene we've allowed them to rearrange the plane you've told us the sickness of trusting the enemy we became defaced. in that's what i call a lack of blackness or understanding the blues of being black. sheep the blues of being black should mandate that we attack knowing how when and what to do simple it is natural. to simply turn the feeling is black and blue. be.

a welcome to sophia and kill me sophie shevardnadze nato is joining the global fight against islamic state but what's to actual plan behind the bold declaration. well the military alliance be able to reinvent itself in the face of changing threats to talk about this and war we are joined by a former deputy secretary general of nato i stand on when authority itself. isolationists course appears to be damaging the unity of late as europe is criticized by the us president for failing to show financial commitment to the bloc decades old. this is now feeling the pressure with the e.u.

seemingly ready to take it security into its own hands in a few radical european army replace him waits on the transatlantic alliance is the current disagreement just a passing cloud or will it be the catalyst of an unraveling of seventy years of western unity. i sound little mean so a former deputy secretary general of nato welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us now sir at the latest nato summit startled strong scalded alliance members for not pulling their weight financially effective be effectively for not contributing two percent of their g.d.p. to defense but since it's the united states that will see most influence in the alliance isn't it fair washington pays to lion's share of expansive well you know destroy oreo to two percent is an old flame you know and is not stated by lloyd if

there's a target which shouldn't political has been aside for a few years ago and it is truly the most old european of those old maid i don't break up to two percent but let's say there is no magic because. there are also older figs that the european allies do. like participating in metal pressure which are not counted in this family stupor slam account you see is a complicated issue certainly what is true is that is probably the counters would be spending more in the future but how much of that which way is this to be saved. nato is now joining the anti isis coalition but what's to point of doing that i mean most nato countries with serious military capability are already fighting islamic state is the us led coalition really in need of support from i don't know let's say iceland's military for example. well i can tell you you know as you are

say rightly over a war most all of the nato allies are participating in the n.t. eyes as a pressure but not the nato isaf so the decision which has been taken a few days ago in brussels is mainly a political decision a symbolic want if you like i mean it does not involve i want to be clear on that it does not involve comical but i actions and the nato flag it is out of question georgia will be a political if you like signal and perhaps some nato assets will be used like the i was like to get a call myself blames you know and perhaps training you know and education on this kind of things but no call button on the ground. so if nato isn't going to commit specific troops to the anti isis five how will it go about its participation within the coalition. all as i say to be fall you know in

fact nato has been already linked in practice to do many many things you know d.d. has they can play these he made all the nato headquarters their offices but it does not ever be an official if you like now it is officially they say you have to take it more as a political symbol it's a lie. than a change of the situation on the ground i figure it will change a little on the ground exactly so secretary stockton burke sad that nato joining the anti isis five cents a strong political message and message to whom. well it's from political meza is a strong political message in fact. they say that you know there are many things that may talk and drool which i've not called but progressions you know like for yourselves folks do not short or like or a connoisseur or like sean or like trading yesterday short in various ways you know

yes but the question was. this is a message to whom was deep the nato secretary general mean this sends a strong political and i would say if it's deployed to get a message is that. they troll recognizes a socks the french or terror room. credit i understand also by russia but anyway coming from that bottle and longs to be fully visible in the fight against those extremist groups this is the political message what is happening is that that is certainly mounting frett from extremist groups let's say in the region will be you know precise and nato is trying to raise its visibility against that but of course of the issue is that nato wants to raise its was ability

and its support but not to the points or entering into combat operations you see there is some of the line. still present trump was expected to reassure nato allies of his commitment to article five that's a clause that treats an attack on a nato member as an attack on all but he didn't do that in his speech the media is saying that means washington isn't ready to defend its allies what do you think does trump behavior indicate just that. i don't know i the no i kind of raid into the mind of the president of united states what i can tell you is that you know i prefer to look to look at what he das or rather that want to say is you know so i don't know why he didn't mention that i have annoyed india we'll see in the future exactly you know we are still in the first few of alms of his presidency so i imagine he's also on the eleventh is probably you know trying to

figure out a lot so his policy should be for the rest of his family i suppose so i would not really gave too much attention to a sentence or another send those there's talk now in the year of a common european army where does that leave nato will it become redundant. my you know this is a get you a sweet you know difficult questions that kind of be. in further cycles european army is you know i think is a wrong way of. speaking about european defense policy because it is no european army and i don't think that it would be any utopian army less europe is united politically which i don't see it's really happening in the next serious atlas to say things diplomatically so in fact what is happening on the european side is to try to. let's say better

utilize exist of the sources to optimize for things and to reduce the how can i say the duplications that exist among european armies because if you take it up here in union you see twenty eight or twenty seven european armies and they duplicate in many things so this is an effort which is going to take place bought and here i have a clear ideas about it this is not going to be an european army in any way. and german chancellor angela merkel is saying that here of can no longer rely on others and that that's a quote europeans have to take their fate into their own hands do you agree or do you think the e.u. has been too dependent on the united states for example well i don't know you know because it is very difficult how can i say to say to judge a policy of

a big country only on the club rational may do it in a letter of complaint so i don't have an idea what mrs macken has in mind. to buy mine for by experience i thing the nato will stay on because you know nato is useful as a practical tool and that is no reason to my mind. soul you know that is not in quote of the actual with the fact that you can stand for european union or you know there are ways you know like trade like environment like instructor or find some micro biome of policy you know all those things that are made of things existing beyond the fast so we have not to finke immediately when a probiotic of say the saying that's just big about it will be on me i don't think so don't trump also advise nato to maybe focus on terrorism and immigration do you think the lions should be doing the job of the european border

guard. frankly speaking i am not of this opinion is don't do the sop of throughline you know they do the soft alliance between you know a military the pressure on and the rest you know but i don't think that nato really as much of their role can be going to have some role on set i'm not a major role in family gratian. nato played a big part in khadafi its overthrow in libya and you're saying its aftermath has spread instability and jihad isn't in africa does nasal have a responsibility to do something about that seeing how its actions cost a callus in the first place i think it's all after the compay sure they're been involved in institution building and then trying to ring false. security. perhaps even the army in a good sense i mean not against anybody but just to help to create a stable state and i think locals

a mistake on the side though they don't want to do that from the beginning you know this i think that we have to admit in my view a bit off there but i assure short of. creating. especially the security side. all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking with. former deputy secretary general of nato talking about the alliances standoff with russia and the future of its policy in the eastern hero states with us.

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i went back was that a sound of. former deputy secretary general of nato talking about nato expansion in zero band the resulting tension with moscow welcome back to the show certain nations decisions are made by concessive order it is easy to reach a consensus when the interests of. arlo and canada are so different

well of course the question is a good question certainly will be allowed to but. it is being more difficult to reach consensus was that the fall before during the cold war it was ready clear at all what one side will. have to be taken in this case is not so easy that it was before so your right is yours are making is is complicated still it looks you know now turkey iran and i mean to some extent that list well nowadays turkey occupies a case body nato it has to alliances second largest conventional army but should nato be concerned with the latest developments in turkey for instance the present are now gone given came self sweeping new powers purging the military except or up or is turkish so strategic importance to high in nato will close its eyes only

accusations so transgressions of democracy. glad you know this is very difficult as a question nato has turkey is a member this is a long time and did a leisure ship as delta always been easy because turkey you know for that you also have a geographical part of the war of you is not really all the same aside the let's say all the older nato countries as always bay have different interests nevertheless i would say so far in the history on nato compromises has always been reached so india and i cannot say to speak about the future and see to as short of settling the bill is radical fused but you know i would not the the cry of the let's say the death all of. these of nato all the other way around yes some argue turkey's unpredictable behavior its military action in iraq and

syria that with russia blocking the asterisk operation with nato turns it into more of a lab elite say than a benefit to the alliance what do you think well you know what i think frankly speaking is that the situation in the middle east is extremely confused radical infused i don't see clear at a cat's threat that is any way i only see tactical things you know things good for today or tomorrow. you have teams of conses for with a brief period of time and then you know divorce immediately i think that's. bad historical moment in the middle east and it is very difficult to predict how things will become of cos we read every day in the newspaper and that all the vinyl is giving judgment on this and that but if you look at the end of the story i see that the middle east of today is very different from the middle east all twelve

eleven of the so-called a lot of the spring and is very difficult to put a big thing with every which direction it will go so this is really my answer to that so what do you think when will nato as enlargements strive finally slow down i mean seeing how many vigorous objections russia made to it is nato moving eastwards just to spite moscow where you are speaking about a lot of other nato yes. well you know i as a lot of the day it's always something to be discussed i think practically that nato has more or less is maximum it stands i think i don't know all of which is of course possible but for the time being i don't see you accession of tornado front to speaking because as you know for a country to be called bottle gun is ashura you need first of all in a quest by the country and i don't see anybody for the moment asking to join nato

and all due to her and i think that also nato up by haps as don't be up or tied. to extend beyond the power of the borders well actually latest addition to nato is montenegro it happened recently and that's a small nation in the balkans was last than two thousand military personnel what's the point in welcoming a state with no military strength into a military alliance what wol is it going to play in your opinion. well i tell you this is a good point if you like because it is a question that you have been asked in the past i remember that when. i mean of things have changed in europe because of the dissolution of the it was lab you remember all those was the question about the future when a the was asked and the question that you're asking me was asked in the senate that should we also have a decide they're going to count his little military capacity and then

do this kushal went on for years that in the end the decision which has been taken is that if there are these the political will all that any a specific independent garment dorrit you're going to show. it will be anywhere useful for the country and for the alliance also for the country because that would imply for the country in question perhaps you have a you have montenegrin mine and maybe it would be good to have some reforms because a lot of facts don't belong into a large international got is there. i don't think this is going to change a nature of nato and then you know nato trying to get out today goes a county ok but here's another example nato promised governments in ukraine and other acts soviet countries eventually membership. but when a confrontation with russia came nato did nothing to help why stare up false hope saying give up promises of defense that you can't keep. well it is not such

a simple story in fact and as far as i know that had been no request from rain to join nato so this question is not on the table in nato as far as i know is not on the table it to my mind they that i express yet a pleasant opium is not to be on the table for the next two years i think that. this is to ash and over nato as it is to me irrational i don't see ok because me a member settle it not in the next year yes perhaps in the middle to am i why not i mean but not now so i don't feel that it should be a concern about that this is my by pass all opinion i think there is a lot of confusion about that and of calls that have different opinions about that by you my mind is. this is the this is this is the where there is cooperation between nato and crane why not. pop the ship for peace supported training but this is not a nato membership this is something else so i think it should not be

a feaking about it. nato is deploying troops to poland and the baltic states in the biggest built up of forces and issue in europe since the cold war the moves as are actually leading to retaliation from russia you know deploying whistles and cutting grat while nato insists it doesn't want an arms race it is actually provoking just that wouldn't you agree well i don't know again you know there are a lot of emotional scene that bottle the world. we have told you about in seoul a gate is very difficult to make a not so difficult to make a difference between because rational political declare that he and reality if you're talking about military presence of nato countries in. poland above the continent in fact that was decided it was decided last year in warsaw user remember and the reason is very simple. some governments of the

elias say that they wanted to have some military presence because there's no nato because the older why there would be assault got to go to be the member states that was doing these a which was a bible of the oldest and i know that at these i figure on their way sounds bold deployments and that bottom euro but i figure again this is rather symbolic and it is more it does more the political meaning that a military one and anyway don't forget this is a rotation so he's a soldier who are going to say the most pressure all the. doubt if the but i would not go beyond that. nato calls its approach to russia a combination of defense and dialogue however while she doesn't see nato as deployments on its borders as the defense does that mean there is not going to be any min in full dialogue either. oh you know i think they'll be better because this

is an important point this question that you ask is a very bold one what i think is that there would be it is no cold war animal the cold war there was to be only one it is finished so i don't figure that out in a situation of a cold war made the way for no i think this is all or what is the difference between they feel confident russia is oldest some specific guidance one is the next session although. the older one is a separate of his mind dumbass they are specific points all the unilateral change aboard those on the other hand there is a local call but i actually know that the other as you know got his own foot in something sayas off. in many older areas which is not to me a dumbass so again i mean you know i would not the mix i would fit together. poland's foreign minister has urged nato to continue talks with russia to ensure

that their alliances military activities in the country aren't considered a provocation in moscow and he's got a point with so much military amassed at the borders on both sides what happens if there was an accidental encounter. you know you are told here about will suffer this from time to time i read in the newspaper but really you know what to think of that war today you wrote is absurd is incredible is. ok as an imagination i feel a little bit and i am not and no i'm not talking about war all i'm saying is that accidents happen they happen all the time and that can provoke a full fledged war. what about you know you fax it on the happen. i mean does being a control of accident you know the feelings become dangerous when you have an accident and if this keeps. city all the dominator vx what it does not happen so

far they feel they were already careful to look at that and to be sure other doesn't happen why should it accident ledger or. size happen all of us on the let's hope not but if you like your there was of the accident though the play which was. let's say killed for us to go or gone bust that was a major accident but after that i haven't seen things of that kind happening anymore luckily. well what can i say mr minute to read so i really enjoyed talking to you and it's such a pity that you are not the current secretary general of nato things would have been much better off if that was the case thanks a lot for this interview or talking to allison gilman is our rate so a former deputy secretary general of nato discussing the alliances latest pledge to fight terrorism and how the nato russia relationship is likely to shape up in the future that's it for this edition of sophia and call see you next.

critical discoveries over the last century made. this is serious. industrial giants reap the benefit. by chemical production. as

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is how the answer to all. the. band is driven into a crowd of pedestrians outside a north london mosque one person dead and several more injured london police say the instance being treated as a terrorist attack in the vans driver has been charged with attempted. elsewhere russia's foreign minister calls on foreign powers to respect the sovereignty of syria following the downing of a syrian fight suggested by the us military near the i still held city of rock and its eleven in the morning in the u.k. a live news event now the whole of the u.k. and the rest of the world paying their respects to the victims of the grim full fire a minute's silence being held there as the police just this last hour.