this is. a welcome to sophie and komi sophie shevardnadze nato joining the global fight against islamic state but what's to actually plan behind the bold declaration. of

the military alliance be able to reinvent itself in the face of changing threats to talk about this and war we're joined by former deputy secretary general of nato don when you thought. isolation is schools appear to be. as europe is criticized by the u.s. president for failing to show financial commitment to the block. is now feeling the pressure. to take its security. european army replacing the transatlantic alliance is the current disagreement just a passing cloud or will it be the catalyst of an unraveling of seventy years of western. sound it'll mean the former secretary general of nato welcome to the show it's really great to have you with us now sir at the latest nato summit startles truong scalded alliance members for not. pulling

their weight financially effective be effectively for not contributing two percent of their g.d.p. to defense but since it's the united states that will see most influence in the alliance is it fair washington pays to lion's share of expansive well you know destroy oreo to two percent is an old flame you know and is not stated by lloyd it is a target which shouldn't political has been a science a few years ago and it is truly the most or european partners on it are both big up to two percent but let's say that is no measure because. there are also other feelings that the european allies do like like participating in nato operations which are not counted in this family stupor slam account you see so as a complicated issue certainly what is true is that there's probably the counters will be spending more in the future but how much and in which way is this still

going to say that nato is now joining the anti isis coalition but what's to point of doing that i mean most nato countries with serious military capability are already fighting islamic state is the us led coalition really in need of support from i don't know let's say iceland's military for example. well i can tell you you know as you were say rightly over a war most all of the nato allies are participating in the n.t. eyes as a pressure but not the nato isaf so the decision which has been taken a few days ago in brussels is mainly a political decision a symbolic one if you like i mean it doesn't not involve i want to be clear on that it does not involve comical but actions on the nato flag it is out of question georgia will be a political if you like signal and perhaps some nato assets will be used like to be

i walks like the other qana sells planes you know and perhaps training you know and education on this kind of things but no call button on the ground. so if nato isn't going to commit specific troops to the anti isis five how will it go about its participation within the coalition all as i say to be fall you know in fact nato has been already linked in practice to do many many things you know all of the as they can play there's a nato nato headquarters their offices but it does not ever be an official if you like now it is officially they say you have to take it more as a political symbol it's a lie rather than a change of the situation on the ground i figure it will change a little on the ground exactly so secretary stockton burke sad that nato joining

the anti isis five cents a strong political message and message to whom. well it's from political meza is a strong political message in fact. they say that you know there are many things that may talk and drool which i've not called but progressions you know like for yourselves folks do not a short or like or a connoisseur or like sean or like trading yes or a short in value sways you know yes but the question was. this is a message to whom was deep the nato secretary general mean this sends a strong political and i would say if it depletes of the message is that if. they draw recognizes a socks the french or terror room. credit i understand also by russia by any way coming from that bottle and longs to be fully visible and to fight against

those extremist groups this is the political message what is happening is that that is really mounting frappe from extremist groups let's say in the region will be you know precise and nato is trying to raise its visibility against that but of course of the issue is that nato wants to raise its was ability and its support but not to the points or entering into combat progression you see there is some of the line. still present trump was expected to reassure nato allies of his commitment to article five that's a clause that treats an attack on a nato member as an attack on all but he didn't do that in his speech the media is saying that means washington isn't ready to defend its allies what do you think the strums behavior indicate just that. i don't know i don't know i kind of grade into

the mind of the president of united states what i can tell you is that you know i prefer to look to look at what he das rather than want to say is you know so i don't know why he didn't mention that i'm annoyed we'll see in the future exactly you know we are still in the first few of alms of his presidency so i imagine he's also on the eleventh is probably you know trying to figure out a lot so his policy should be for the rest of his family i suppose so i would not really gave too much attention to a sentence or another send those there's talk now in the you of a common european army where does that leave nato will it become redundant. my you know this is a get you a sweet you know difficult question of the kind of b. . in further cycles european army is you know i think is

a wrong way of. speaking about european defense policy because it is no european army and i don't think that it would be any utopian army unless europe is united politically which i don't see it's really happening in the next few reus atlas to say things diplomatically so in fact what is happening on the european side is to try to. let's say better utilize exist of the soul says to optimize friends and to reduce the how can i say the duplications that exist among european armies because if you take it up here in union you see twenty eight or twenty seven european armies and they duplicate in many things so this is an airfield which is going to take place bought and here i have a clear ideas about it this is not going to be an european army in any way. and

german chancellor angela merkel is saying that here of can no longer rely on others and that that's a quote europeans have to take their fate into their own hands do you agree do you think the e.u. has been too dependent on the united states for example well i don't know you know because it is very difficult how could i say to say to judge a policy of a big country only on the club rational may do it in a letter of complaint so i don't have an idea what mrs macken has in mind. to buy mine for four by experience i think the nato will stay on because you know nato is useful as a practical tool and that is no reason to my mind. soul you know it is not in going to the actual word of fact that you can stand for european union or you know there are ways you know like in trade like environment like instructor or

find some micro biome is policy you know all those things that are made of things existing beyond the fast so we have not to frank immediately went in for a lack of say the saying let's just begin about it will be obvious i don't think so don't trump also advise nato to maybe focus on terrorism and immigration do you think the lions should be doing the job of the european border guard. frankly speaking i am not of this opinion is don't do is a sop a through line you know that is a softer line between you know a military role and the rescuer but i don't think that nato really as much of their role can be going to have some role monsanto not a major role. nato played a big part in khadafi its overthrow in libya and you're saying its aftermath has spread instability and jihad isn't in africa does nato have

a responsibility to do something about that seeing how its actions cost a callus in the first place i think of the nato ofter that come pay sure they're being involved in institution building and then trying to ring false. security apart. by helps even the enemy in a good sense i mean not against anybody but just to help to create a stable state and i think it was a mistake on the side though they don't want to do that from the beginning you know this i think that we have to admit in my view a bit off the you about a should have continued in the creating institutional see libya especially the security side. all right we're going to take a short break right now when we're back we'll continue talking with any sound all the meaning so former deputy secretary general of nato talking about the alliances standoff with russia and the future of its policy in the eastern hero states with us.

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and we're back with alice sound old me new authority it's all former deputy secretary generals they taught talking about nader's expansion into europe and they resulted in tension with moscow welcome back to the show certain natures decisions are made by a concessive order it is easy to reach a consensus when the interests of. slovenia are low and canada are so different. well of course the question is a good question but certainly we've got a lot of it told nato it is being it is more difficult to reach consensus was that in the fall before during the cold war it was ready clear on oahu over one side was on your shoulder it was kind of the shooter had to be taken in this case is not so

easy that it was before so your right is usually making is is complicated still it works you know now turkey on the ground i mean to some extent that list well nowadays turkey occupies a case body nato it has to alliances second largest conventional army but should nato be concerned with the latest developments in turkey for instance the present are now gone given can sell sweeping new powers purging the military except or up or is turkish strategic importance too high in nato will close its eyes only accusations so transgressions of democracy. where you know this is very difficult is a question from nato. as the turkey is a member this is a long time and did a leisure ship as the it's always been easy because turkey you know for that you also have a geographical part of the war you view is not really all the same aside the let's say all the older nato countries as always bay have different interests

nevertheless i would say so far in the history all nato compromises has always been reached so india and i cannot say to speak about the future and see to esher to settle in the middle east is very confused but you know i would not the the cry of the let's say the death all of. these of nato all the other way around yes some argue turkey's unpredictable behavior its military action in iraq and syria that with russia blocking the vosges compilation with nato turns it into more of a lab elite say than a benefit to the alliance what do you think well you know what i think frankly speaking is that the situation in the middle east is extremely confused radical infused i don't see clear out of cats threat that is any way i only see tactical

things you know things good for today or tomorrow. you have teams of conses for with a brief period of time and then you know divorce immediately i think that's. bad historical moment in the middle east and it is very difficult to predict how things will become of cos we read every day in the newspaper and that all the vinyl is giving judgement on this and that but if you look at the end of the story i see that the middle east of today is very different from the middle east all twelve eleven of the so-called a lot of the spring and is very difficult to put a big thing with there in which direction it will go so this is really my answer to that so what do you think when will nato enlargement strive finally slow down i mean seeing how many vigorous objections russia made to it is nato moving eastwards just to spite moscow what you're speaking about

a lot of us or nato yes. well you know it's a lot of the day it's always something to be discussed i think practical that nato has more or less is maximum stands i think i don't know all u.s. which is of course possible but for the time being i don't see a new accession of tomato front to speaking because as you know for a country to be called bottle gun is ashura you need first of all in a quest by the country and i don't see anybody for a moment asking to join nato and all due to her and i think that also old nato perhaps as don't be upper tied. to extend beyond the pull of the borders well actually the latest addition to nato is montenegro it happened recently and that's a small nation in the balkans was last than two thousand military personnel what's the point in welcoming a state with no military strength into a military alliance what wol is it going to play in your opinion.

well i tell you this is a good point if you like because it is a question that should be in the last of the past i remember that when. i mean of things have changed in europe because of the dissolution of the it was latvia you remember all those was the question about the future when a the was asked and the question that you're asking me was asked in the south that should we also have a decide you're going to counties with little military capacity and then do this kushal went on for years that in the end the decision which has been taken is that if there are these the political will all the any specific independent government dorrit you're going to show. it will be anywhere useful for the country and for the alliance also for the country because that would imply for the country in question perhaps you are having you have montenegrin mine and maybe it would be

good to have some reforms because a lot of facts don't belong into a large international got is there. i don't think this is going to change nature of late on in. no need to try to get out of all today though is a county ok but here's another example nato promised governments in ukraine and other acts soviet countries eventually membership. but when a confrontation with russia came nato did nothing to help why stare up false hope saying give up promises of defense that you can't keep. well is not such a simple story in fact and as far as i know there had been no request from graham to join nato official this question is not on the table in nato as far as i know is not on the table it to my mind they did i express it a personal opinion is not to be on the table for the next two years i think that.

this is to ash and over nato as it is is to me to irrational i don't see who crave because me a member certainly not in the next year yes perhaps in the middle to am i why you know what i mean but not now so i don't feel that it should be a concern about that this is my my personal opinion i think that is a lot of confusion about that and of calls that have different opinions about that by you my mind is. this is the this is this is the where there is cooperation between nato and crane why don't. bothers you for peace supported training but this is not nato membership this is something else so i think you should not be freaking about it you know nato is deploying troops to poland and the baltic states in the biggest built up of forces an issue in europe since the cold war the move as are actually leading to retaliate from russia you know deploying whistles and cutting grat while nato insists it doesn't want an arms race it is actually provoking just

that wouldn't you agree. well i don't know again you know there are a lot of emotional scene that bottle the world. we are talking about and soul again is very difficult to make a not so difficult to make a difference between because rational political the player that he and reality if you're talking about military presence of nato countries in. poland above the continent in fact that was decided it was decided last year in warsaw user remember and the reason is very simple. some governments of the elias sayed that they wanted to have some military presence because there's no nato because the older why there would be assault over got to go to be the member states that will do is a which was a ball of the old us and i know that at these i figure on their way sounds bold deployments in that bottle we were all but i think again this is rather symbolic

and it is more it does more the political meaning that a military one and anyway don't forget that there is a rotation so as a sort of other i say the most pressure all sorted out at the but i wouldn't go beyond that. nato calls its approach to russia a combination of defense and dialogue however while she doesn't see nato as deployments on its borders as the defense does that mean there is not going to be any men in full dialogue either. oh you know i think to be better because this is an important point this question that you ask is a very bold one what i think is that there would be it is no cold war animal the cold war there was a bit only one it is finished so i don't figure that we're out in a situation of a cold war made the way for no i think this is all or what is the difference between they feel confident russia is oldest some specific points one is the next

session although. the older one is a separate of his mind dumbass they are specific points although unilateral change aboard those on the other hand that is a local call but i actually know that as you know enough god is on forty and something sayas off. in many older areas which is not me dumbass so again i mean you know i would not to mix up if you get a. poland's foreign minister has urged nato to continue talks with russia to ensure that the alliances military activities in the country aren't considered a provocation in moscow and he's got a point with so much military amassed at the borders on both sides what happens if there was an accidental encounter. you know you are told here about will suffer this from time to time i read in the newspaper but really you know what to think of that war today you wrote is absurd is incredible is.

ok as an imagination i feel a little bit and i am not you know i'm not talking about war all i'm saying is that accidents happen they happen all the time and that can provoke a full fledged war. what about you know you fax it on the happen. i mean does it being a control of accident you know the feelings become dangerous when you have an accident and that has escaped do you all right pressure to be all the dominator v.x. so that it does not happen so far they feel they are already careful to look at that and to be sure other doesn't happen why should the accident ledger or. size happen all of us on the let's hope not but if you like their walls of the accidental to play that which was. let's say killed for us to go or gone bust that was

a mad accident but after that i haven't seen things of that kind happening anymore luckily. well what can i say mr minute to reach so i really enjoyed talking to you and it's such a pity that you are not the current secretary general of nato things would have been much better off if that was the case thanks a lot for this interview or talking to allison gilman is our rate so a former deputy secretary general of nato discussing the alliance's latest pledge to fight terrorism and how the nato russia relationship is likely to shape up in the future that's it for this edition of sophia and call see you next.

critical discoveries over the last century made. easy but at what cost this is serial is exceptionally sick. no wonder it's confidential. says since the years old industrial giants reaps the benefit ignoring the coolest by chemical production. you know as if these people aren't people just experimental animals. the toxic environment continues to poison lives and we found these astronomically high levels of dioxin levels that my staff think maybe some of the highest levels in the united states for almost thirty years this very serious

problem had not actually been addressed what will that investigation into the chemical industries secrets revealed. to. the earth. seemed wrong. to me but yet to shape out does day become educated and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. she still looks for common ground. let's talk about blackness and the bills of being black. and always well in a big house down the at least that's what i've been told but it was simply that we and remains as such because we simply forgot i don't. eat scene we've allowed them

to rearrange out paint you've told us the sickness of trusting our enemy we came to face. it that's what i call a lack of blackness or understand in the blues of being black. sheep the blues of being black you can mandate that we attack knowing how when and what to do to come this simple in his natural as be beck is simply to the feelin blue is black and blue.

this is r.t. from moscow breaking news russia's military suspends cooperation with the united states in syria and says that american backed aircraft will now be tracked as targets it's after a syrian fighter jet was downed by an american war plane. hits a crowd of worshipers outside a north london mosque injuring several people and what's being treated as an act of terrorism one person died at the scene. this was an attack on muslims near their place of worship. and iran launches missiles targeting militants in eastern syria in retaliation for recent terror attacks into iran.