hello welcome to. shevardnadze like much of the world the e.u. is going through turbulent times massive immigration. security threats rocking the very foundation of the union well dealing with the common challenges bringing closer together or. were here add to your reign him media for us to not to discuss this and much more with the former president. and the rise of euro skepticism european politicians into promises of reform while the downturn in relations with the west is making brussels think about a tighter union in europe but with so many different voices inside the bloc. direction before with it how will the powerhouses of the union bring the newer member states in line and will the powerful stronger integration lead the e.u. to new horizons or the complete break. plus one hundred virus so it's really great

having you on our show today welcome to pleasure so that. when what's going on in european union right now i met quite a lot of european politicians officials and most of them are saying that maybe there is a little too much integration maybe there is a bit of effect amongst the people about the integration so in your opinion if that's the case how should the move forward without a consolidate it. especially if people are a little tired of it. being tried to avoid kind of. fundamental discussions of both the more europe or less europe we have to be privy to. there are areas where we need more integration there are areas where probably we could reverse some of delicious leisure that sometimes appears to intrusive

but frankly i don't think this is always helpful to have discussions of ideological philosophical debates about more or less europe because based on my experience of living u.p.a. and commission ten years what i have seen was that even in times of crisis the most acute financial and sovereign debt crisis we had in europe at least since the second world war it was possible for you pinion to make progress for instance we have now some elements of a banking union with a common supervisory mechanisms common resolution mechanism that will be considered unthinkable before the crisis so for instance for the countries want to have a common currency definitely it's needed more integration so yeah outside of the concrete steps because i know that the and here are being touted by politicians

which would mean that there are states in iraq like press and germany who want to tatar integration whoever wants to follow and whoever doesn't want to tatar interation then you know they can just say once again i don't think this vision is correct so tell me if i am donald tusk that it looks like an iron curtain to me what i mean this is one of the misconception that exists about european union is that sometimes this debate about the two speeds comes cyclical already on the in the eighties there was some ideas about having to do speeds europe in fact the current treaties allow for integration in some areas of the country that want to do it provided they keep it united for those who want to join later you see until now that article was not used. and it's not true it's completely false that france and germany who always want to go ahead and years and some others don't want to come by

the way france voted against the coastal treaty it was a founding member it was not new member states it voted against the new treaties you see so there are some how can i put it some prejudices sometimes inside the european union in terms of debate my experience is that yes it is definitely important that france and germany are together if they don't cooperate there is not progress but it's not sufficient we also media others and it's very important to avoid any kind of directorial in european union we need to have all member states are respected because i do agree that right now it's the rank and specially chairman that's driving the engine or. a collar shop or in the near are they are due to be countries in your area but by doing. i can tell you

a country like pulling these critically important for the union critically important spain as a very strong say italy of course also as a founding member of the netherlands my opinion is that it is a mistake to think that there are two or three countries that lead the show we don't them yes it's not possible because they have a very central position but. it's not enough so it's a necessary condition but not sufficient condition to have france and germany brightly and now i'm very happy but personally because you know i'm very committed to you peon and i think today coming too much better conditions in terms of corporation between france and germany if you don't bring it to speak here or is there reality or we were just saying that if it becomes reality not a good idea i mean once again i'm trying to avoid. depletion of the stereotypes we

already have different speeds of integration european union today that's not a new proposal we have countries that are in the euro area countries we are not in euro area we have country that are in. freedom complete freedom of seclusion of people and those that are not ensuring that we have countries that have accepted all the chapters of the internal and just his affairs chapter and the have nots so we already have some variable geometry and i believe you we did twenty eight or twenty seven countries it's a divided to have this kind of variable geometry but what is important is it to keep the common purpose and that no country if the country is ready and if the country wishes is prevented of going forward if the country wants ok let's not go into the black and white discussion but yet hungary poland and check

into submission because they all want that. shits not imposed by brussels i'm sorry it was a vote of all the countries that is and there are many things i don't want to accept but you know it has been worse if they want it on and they don't accept you know but that's another myth sometimes you find in the media not only in your media in general. they say imposed by brussels but how can brussels impose it's a power of the countries it's not a part of the european commission there was a vote by old member states and the qualified majority a very strong majority approved. reception of those refugees it's true that those countries you have mentioned have reserve ations about it and what they are putting in question is not brussels it's the other governments of europe. you see the other governments that are also sovereign governments that have voted that way so question one of the question was is you suing them or not there's. yes no so right

now what do we have should member sell it our trum member savva and that's also a topic that's. everything at once again once again suffering to in europe is a shared concept i was prime minister of my country i was ten years leading you can commission but while i was twelve years in the government of my country so i am not a neural carets in the senate i mean i'm not a euro craft i believe that we should be independent countries but independent countries that work together for a common purpose and so of course there is given take this is very important to understand if not if we continue to look at the european union like your opinion was. a country like let's say united states of america we are not united states of europe we are group in the union where we have countries that are independent some

of them very very old many centuries of existence like my country but that they have decided to share their thoughts of rain so the concept of silvering. is not the same which is in russia or in china or united states and the stance so of course the debate and say this is a problem because you're saying integration of terror not really a problem do you feel like some member states one more sour and there are political decisions like for instance where migrant quotas do you feel like it's an instant it stop i mean of course there are discussions and if you can it is but that's normal and i believe also in our country sometimes even in countries in russia there are also discussions on. in united states there are discussions and they are punters so of course between twenty eight or twenty seven countries you cannot expect in fact i will be i will be very concerned if every country will be agreeing

every time with everything in that case it will be an indication that there was probably a superior power that was imposing something no we have these discussions what is important to understand is the trends i just. i want to reiterate that i'm not here a skeptic or a crack but i'm someone who has a process and i'm trying to give you based on my experience some keys to perception analysis that's the point everybody says you. can do you have to write it all the way it should mean yes i knew it's not the same europe as it was ten years ago it seems to me like there are much more problems i don't agree you know and that's the point so. important issue it was a problem or you was not happy with it but to be honest. britain great we did was some kind of exceptional case and you can use britain did not want to be a member of the euro not want to be

a member of there was what sometimes you called the british exceptionalism so it's true that it is a problem everything said that if you keep overall integration of even if you manage your by any indicator it's morning diluted now then that ten or twenty years ago but precisely because there isn't there is a movement of intimidation there is resistance if you just use a dialectic you find and use the expression the electic resistance when there is movement there is a resisting he don't see the current situation as a big problem because for us it seems like there is a wedge between the west because of the migrant quota situation and to us it also seems like work said in large part happened because of the migrant situation jane not feel like the migrant situation of commission is a real problem. first of all for the migrants and for the refugees that's a real tragedy. i mean let's put things in context when some of my colleagues in

europe say that we have a good big problem i say look our problem is nothing compared to promote of those people that are suffering and they are dying in the military the disease so we have to help these people so let's meet their fate as a problem for your own sheedy's it is an issue that we have to settle but by the way it's now better than two years ago there was some agreements including with turkey i think the problem today is under control i think europe and the capacity to integrate. the refugees at the same time we cannot accept everybody that comes to our country and countries it's true i mean all countries have the control of their borders all countries so europe also as the rights to control its borders. but once again it's going to be solved progressively you know you peon in acts by incremental steps step by

step you cannot expect european union in one day among twenty eight or twenty seven can say ok the problem solved no we don't expect that because that was not going to happen but some dialogue with some compromise you'll see that at the end this issue is going to be settled and some years from now the debt problem will no longer exist we're talking shall break right now when we're back we'll continue talking to former mayor of commission president cause around here and there are some about everything that's going on inside of europe or our goals.

thank you for new to the game this is how it works now the economy is built around corporations corporations run washington washington controls the media the media control over the voters elected the businessman to run this country business equals power you must it's not business as usual it's business like it's never been done before. manufacture consensus and stick to the public will. when the ruling classes to protect themselves. the final. episode be the one. we can all look at the roots of. the real root.

and we're back with closing line here but also the floor where your commission president barroso want to talk about a large land of bay because the current here commission president john clarke in care says while he's holding that child there's going to be no large one but his membership commissioner says one kerry is gone and will accept new members and what do you think i mean right now a lot of things are going on in europe even though you're making it seem like it's ok i mean you've got you know the integration the reform that to spit thing that migrant do you think europe can digest new members and especially if it's members that aren't financially viable or in europe let me just make. a note saying

that every seat is fine you are right there in europe go to another part of the world you have many problems i mean europe is much much better than the parts so i won't try to put things in perspective historically and also geographically when you see other parts of the world was going on to hate the mistrust i mean europe from that point of view is doing much better than other parts of the world. having said that i don't want our viewers to single i'm saying that everything is perfect i'm not saying that i'm trying to put things in perspective now coming to the show of a lodgment. it's true that there was some kind of a lodgment fatigue. it's true because look and once again i want to share my experience i was president of the commission between two thousand and four and two thousand and fourteen two thousand and four we were fifteen countries thousand and

fourteen we were twenty eight it means we have almost doubled the number of countries so there was some some an allotment fatigue. and it explains why my successor said in the next five years there will be no enlargement but he did not say that there will be no enlargement in the future so i continue to think there will be allotment in the future i think some of the countries in the balkans if they meet the criteria and if they will they want to join because dupion union is a union based on liberty and freedom no one these here against its own we'll by the way from their point of view breaks it is a good example because if a country decides to leave it's free to leave so we are a free union of free countries that's very important with us that it's not like other unions in the past it were by force where one dominates the others we are a free union of free countries so if the countries want to join. i think.

we'll have the capacity to adopt them as members yes i think so how do you perceive it in the future how do you see it while they use rich countries continues to have to bail out the poor know their differences differences among the member states until now it was possible to. to find solutions sometimes very difficult to read lot of pain and sacrifice. but once again the more pessimists were wrong and the cynics were wrong i was present of the commission when most people were telling me that the goodies was going to. the market sentiment at that time from new york to london was greece is going to leave they were wrong reasons to remember and i believe it will remain i was just knowing athens so these two precise had to give an example how strong european integration is much stronger.

than most people know that and the resilience of the european union of the euro area is higher than what is commonly that is my point now i'm a realistic person i'm not saying that everything is perfect i'm not saying that there are no tensions there are tensions there are different levels of development but also in our countries are we for their full of development some of our countries have some parts of the country that are very developed and then there's less developed that your country russia i'm sure that not all the regions of the same level of prosperity are united states or china so we have to deal with this the question is political questions. do we do better we do is a load each country on its own or together that is the point from my point of view it's better to be together because for instance we have seen over the years a convergence do poorest countries or do so rich countries because compared with

other parts of the world europe is not so poor but to less prosperous countries have been coming closer to the richer countries if you look at the historical from let's say since they became members until now they have been making progress to the average how much talk about the common european army and that's something that's being talked about more and more you know european security was basically bankrolled by the americans for seventy years through nato and now trying got elected and you know people in europe are like whoops maybe we should take care of ourselves why did it take traum to make europe think that they should be on their own and haven't answered their own well because for instance the what you are saying now it was basically the message that was put forward by chancellor merkel and i very much support what she said i think she's writes i think the european

union countries. should take more responsibility for their defense. now this mean that we should rican the atlantic alliance i don't think so what i think it is rational and reasonable to do is. do you peon union countries doing more collectively in terms of defense but not to be calling something that has been working until now but that will come all comes down to money because trump says you know i want the members to pay out because america has been paying less than one year for nato and all the member states are right there we have to pay now and plus having a european army is also tied down to finance and you really think you're asked that much financial we're. going to tell you one thing it's not a secret but since the eighty's i've been in many meetings of nato my country representing my country before you being there as present of the commission since

the eighty's and i told him i don't remember any american president was not asking the european union countries to put more money it's not new or why did it wrong for all excited then to george bush to to obama very strongly i mean mr term does it in these idiosyncratic way but in fact the messages say i think their trauma new economic point of view do you have enough resources to invest something more in defense and i think we should do it. evan said this of course it's going to be once again incremental and i want to make this point clear it is not going to be a revolution from today tomorrow though it's going to be incremental we already see germany doing more so there are some ideas that are being circulated and opal

the equal there will be some progress for europe why because i believe europe if you do penal introspected in the world. it should not be only as it is today the biggest trade bloc in the world then everybody understands that europe is simple to team three terms but also progressive li assume a more. stable and clear. caring policy and defense identity i just have one last question i mean you know that all the sanctions that are put on russia are put on russia because of crimea but realistically speaking you're a very smart man you know i know everyone knows that no amount of sanctions especially at this point is going to make russia give up crimea so what's the point of the sanctions are this sanctions of principle look i was it was not a decision of the commission because decisions as you know in europe in terms of

them foreign policy are the responsibility of all the states member states not old commission but the ones in the u.p.a. and summit where do the seasons were taken. so i remember very well what was the reason for the sanctions. and the reason was the following. the countries thought that it was very serious what happened between russia and ukraine . ukraine member of matted nations a smaller country compared to russia so and there was a sentiment that the international law been violated. and so do you peel country says to react what could be do. military option of course not that's not an option thanks ago nobody wants to come back to do wars.

but just to make a statement diplomatic statement could be too weak so sanctions ors a kind of the mid it's. let's say mid term solution that show our indignation our condemnation we doubt going too far at the same time it was sad that they were done in a way that was scalable and they could be reversible provided there was another let's say behavior and in fact afterwards in africa made among others by chancellor merkel. the so-called means process where by the way i was invited but i could not go but. there was a commitment of the countries as far as i know that. if there is a respect by russia of the minsk commitments this issue of sanctions could be

looked again so i hope that can happen i really i'm saying that very sincerely i have a great respect for a ship for the country that rasheed for its history or its people for the extraordinary courage and resilience of the russian people i've said that many times to president putin and toward a very important person out in the russian russia is part of the european civilization so i'm very sad when i see. problems between russia and your opinion but for that we would like to see i'm not speaking now in any official capacity so i'm speaking personally i think it will be important to russia as a more constructive attitude towards ukraine. krynn so renting plans and that based on this we can create confidence and of course sexual school be at least

scale down or even disappear and to have a more let's say constructive relationship between the european union and russia because i think that will be in the interest of all of our peoples the russian people but also the peoples of the european union thank you very much for at this and cheering wherever their excess president asked her hotel for helping us host this interview. in the. light was. moving to reach gave the green. attention to. the beginning. of the final minutes no time to slow extra time and replay so

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hawks that along the border will want. syria accuse israel of aiding terrorists after the i.d.f. bomb syrian troops for the second time in two days damascus soldiers. coming up to we hear from a us democratic congresswoman who is pushing the stalled washington militants in syria. each time we have these wars it has resulted in the strengthening of terrorist groups. russian investigators say the perpetrators of the simply to. use the encrypted messaging service telegraph to carry out the atrocity.