inspired by events thousands of miles away globalization comes with a price and it's already disrupting existing power structures with the public showing injury support for protection is forces in major elections can globalization be doing more harm than good is an unstoppable process is will the new wave of resistance hinder its advance. and i great to have you with us on our program thank you so we'll start with german platers latest initiative it wants to make africa one of the main topics twenty the idea is to spread investment. from africa to europe but this initiative been. in place before and nothing really came out of it two thing to watch this time well maybe africa something else that's going on so actually you have taken the words right out of my about because it is not the first time that africa or migration or infrastructure or poverty alleviation are either g twenty priorities chief seven or you priorities and of

course germany and other major western powers at any given time or chairing one of these bodies and they're always shifting their priorities so i don't think there's anything new i think there is an acute illness obviously to the migration particularly coming out of africa and the arab world that is that is front and center in the german political system right now so i'm not surprised that they've developed decided to do this but let's also remember most importantly is that the barcelona process of the european that goes back to the early one nine hundred ninety s. was a significant diplomatic focus on north africa on the need for investment on the need to create jobs on the need to stem migration flows does this sound familiar because that was almost twenty five years ago so here we are and germany's it's great that they're doing it but i want to see action not just talk so while it's coming up again and it's going to spotlight. on control processes like migration and other things like. terrorism as well but economic incentives aren't going to

make this go away overnight what should be done in between not overnight but it would be nice to start because they do work and let's take the example of turkish migration into europe the economic growth of turkey prior to the current crisis was so strong for a lasting period of time that turkish migration into europe was net zero let's take mexico in the united states there is right now net zero migration between mexico and united states because mexico's a fast growing economy so let us be absolutely clear it works economic development works to keep people in their home countries to be part of that growth story in the modernization story and even to draw back the expatriates so when you say you know it doesn't work immediately no it doesn't but it would be nice to start right now because it really is the top priority regarding migration. thing around for germany it's in the right forty three so you have this aging

population right maybe it's not such a bad thing to have been in migration come to europe maybe a little. to make economy work even better there is migrants and there's migrants there's refugees and then there's ph d.'s right and those are two different things i actually went to high school in germany or partially grew up there at the time you know a lot of people thought i was turkish though i'm indian actually but i speak german german so i fit in but when you you know new migrants who are coming in who think they're coming in just temporarily don't necessarily have it you know skills that the that the host country needs just because their bodies you know human bodies it doesn't mean they're not going to fill the specific gaps in german society their particular every country knows what there is it mechanics is it teachers is the cleaners is it doctors is it technicians right the labor shortage that exists across europe generally is. in multiple categories i see professionals so that

means you need people from india and from brazil and from russia not from mali right or people in the elderly care industry because as you pointed out there are aging populations that means you need filipinos right not necessarily people from mali so countries are going to be a lot more careful about who they let in for how much time under what conditions and why and that's not something that we can be critical of because they don't all have the same degree of capacity to absorb migrants right a country like luxembourg or hungary cannot absorb any migrants that is german speed so we have to see things from the point of view of germany france and so forth so do you think twenty. two tackling. in g twenty has more members but then can they come. on russia's i've been immensely critical of these very informal club like bodies for

a long time and written books criticizing them because they are whether they're whether they're type clubs or clubs they're non-binding clubs and all they do is take the mood of themselves i actually just called it group therapy that's really what it is it's just getting together to complain not necessarily to produce a lasting positive agenda we don't really see the g twenty achieving coordinated infrastructure investment central bank coordination coordinated geo political approaches or diplomacy none of those things have ever happened within the g twenty you would be hard pressed to come up with a single issue where there really is a long term actual g twenty cooperation now just because twenty countries sign on to something look at the underlying structure as with things like nato you know that at the end of the day it's just one maximum two countries that are driving. you now is turning to. after

a company in china that's. already stocking up. still states was moved from a. project that's going to that's going to go right to europe like china's had your money coming in china or we're a couple of things in terms of europe in africa and china sort of the other way around because europe has been there for centuries is a clone you know power but the volume of trade between europe and africa is relatively steady and because europe is not liberalizes agricultural policy it's been difficult for africans to export more to europe than they would as much as they would like to china and india asia more broadly we should say has been the key driver of africa's growth right not only in terms of exports of african commodities what we call the supercycle in economics was high commodities prices for africans and for latin americans and high demand from asia that was the perfect symbiosis

for the last fifteen years and now of course chinese infrastructure investment into africa particularly east africa but really just six or seven countries has been very very strong huge and it's helping to create a foundation for future economic growth in a couple of countries but remember africa has fifty three countries eighty percent of chinese investment goes into five of those countries so china is helping certain specific countries it is not uplifting an entire continent and china certainly does not want to be ahead i am a very strong supporter of one but one road i have been writing about the precursors to one by one road i have been traveling these new silk roads here in kazakhstan for almost twenty years and i strongly believe that infrastructure is going to be very very critical to helping to create a new economic purpose and role for central asian countries especially at a time when energy prices are going. to be permanently low for

a very long time we know this is going to affect russia you run brazil all of the oil producing countries in the world have to get used to a new normal infrastructure investment is critical to driving the next wave of growth and so whatever china is doing whether it's in a few african countries or across your asia can be used very positively and now it's up to those countries that are hosting the infrastructure like kazakhstan and others in central asia they know have to make the most of it they should not be asking china what to do after they've just received billions of dollars of new infrastructure from china but do you feel like. western china could enable somehow clash at all who gets more financial benefits or help from africa well to be honest all of history is about clashing over what i call the supply chain tug of war right it's a tug of war you and i are connected by a rope and it's all about who gets the largest share of the road i mean how big of

a classic amy can be an actual conflict between west and china or africa you know you have to specify west i mean the united states is not contiguous power to. europe right well europe has very enthusiastically signed on to one belt one road because of course the most of the largest engineering and procurement and construction companies in the world are either european or chinese korean japanese indian they're either european or there isn't one but one road is a huge opportunity for all of them to benefit from building these new corridors of trade and commerce in for oil and gas pipelines electricity grids railways internet cables this will be great for european companies will be great for chinese companies it will smooth the flow of trade between the two still that intangible rivalry between that and the west's broader word than china i don't really think that we. can speak about

a coherent west anymore because one is proving just how divided the west is remember that under president obama the united states went to great efforts to try to convince european leaders european governments not to join the asian infrastructure investment bank but all of them did they did not listen to the u.s. europe has a very different attitude towards russia a very different attitude towards china a very different attitude towards iran than the united states does clearly europe is very pro engagement right in ways that america is not personally i take the european. what do you make of africa itself and its stance i know it's also broad word because you know you want to talk specifically on that country but let's try to take it as you like it's going to take iran. to see how china reacts and some of the european countries react in terms of in africa are

just going to stay there and let it be exploited i'm happy to talk about africa i'm a geographer anyway so to me there is a meaning to africa but economically and politically it's very fragmented you can generalize somewhat about west africa east africa and sub-saharan africa and arab sort of north africa but what you're describing is this phenomenon that i call multi alignment multi alignment is what happens when it's a multi-polar world when europe is a great power china is a great power russia's great power america great power all of them are competing for influence to get the deals to do the projects to sell the weapons to whatever the case may be with countries like you know like kenya like ethiopia like egypt like nigeria what smart countries do when they're on the receiving end of all of this interest from around the world is they practice what i call this multi line they say well you want to maintain good relations with everyone let's do certain things. it's trying to certain things with america certain things with europe

certain things with russia certain things with india and then we will win so we have to realize now that countries african countries central asian countries latin american countries like brazil there they have a right to see the world with themselves at the center and we now live in a world where every country is putting itself at the center no country say well america's at the center trying is at the center everyone sees themselves there and so they want to play all sides that is also i think a very evolutionary step in how the world is organized and i also think it's quite possible we're going to take a short break right now while we're back we'll continue talking to parrot hannah about what's going on in the world and what's up with globalization with us.

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and we're back with. eric were asking about the united states you have said that reich was so removed graphically and the rest of the world that it actually suffers from ignorance. what a thing will happen with. the country. left behind it when possible ones like number one economy it's certainly not going to diminish the ignorance because because the president himself you know gain takes so much

attention that even less time is spent on studying analyzing the rest of the world but leaving that aside look i like to quantify things it's not just about america's historical role i like to be very very concrete america is the world's largest oil and gas producer right its oil exports to china asia are increasing even though the green it was not ratified so america's role in global energy markets is very significant america's role in global finance is of course central it's the role of the dollar it's the size of the top of the markets america's role in technology is very very significant and america's role in defense and military really relationships is very significant so in these four areas not to mention language and culture of course america still doesn't matter if it's number one or number two it depends on where is it number one or number two but on a global basis the fact that the u.s. is so central in these key areas of global management and global markets that means that no matter who is president actually of the united states the u.s.

is still going to play these roles because it's important for america to do them so you see the self correcting nature of the system to by the way in my opinion it doesn't correct fast enough but but the self correcting nature meaning that trade continues to grow even though the u.s. is not to decide to step out of the right so there is this there is a system that is greater than just america and america has to choose what parts of the system it wants to continue to play a strong role in and even lead and obviously it's very ambivalent about that decision. what about united states and with election it has shown. that democratic process can actually split people not only unite do you feel like us is in for a long period of ideological splintering well we have to be clear that the political divides the polarization in the us predate the present right these have been going

on i lived in states for ten years and have a lot of friends in both camps and. and never seen anything like this before they were clashing there's no tomorrow and so you know maybe this last election has brought really to the surface some things that were there but we know that you know income inequality wage stagnation gerrymandering of political districts polarization you know the lack of effectiveness in congress there are these are well documented trends going back decades and now they're really acute and manifest to the point where people describe this system as being seized with a kind of paralysis so you are absolutely right that it's never been this bad and it does tell us a thing or two not about democracy is a theory or a principle it just tells us about the way democracy is being practiced you know right now in the ways in which we're talking in particular in america yes i mean you could also look at the flaws of the failures of the mistakes in policymaking or

the lock up policy making in the united kingdom or in other democracies you can look at the fact that in australia they have a different prime minister every single year no system is perfect whether it's democracy or and on democracy i personally work in the field of governance i'm interested in the capacity of the state the capacity of the government to make affective long term decisions and policies that benefit the maximum number of people that is my only interest and if i see a weakness in the way the u.s. is doing that and of course there are weaknesses i want to remedy those so we're not the only person that that that the american democracy or even the american capitalism is crippling right now where you propose. i propose something i call a direct technocracy which can combines the idea of direct democracy which is of course highly democratic that's the way the country of switzerland is run and there's certainly no better democracy than switzerland but with technocracy which is to say a very professional manager your real professional class of civil servants who are

very neutral who are utilitarian who. meritocratic least selected rather than corrupt and whose purpose is to take the very complex inputs of the world economic issues the domestic issues the foreign issues the strategic issues and to find a way of balancing them versus the desires of the people the fiscal constraints that a country faces and to come up with credible consensus long term policies they have to do it in consultation with what we're describing is great and singapore occurs by the same. but. for a huge country like america that is the way to countries that need this most are the large countries because the small countries are actually doing a pretty good job of it so when i wrote this book on technocracy i looked at you know what are the best ranked governments in the world for effectiveness of the government the credibility of the government the public support for the government

you know the lower inequality all of these things are better in small countries and large countries the lesson is not that it does not apply to big countries the lesson is that big countries need to think of themselves in terms of their components their constituent parts and that is why in the wake of the election of trump and the divisiveness that there is in congress states and cities are saying we're going to do things our way we're going to stick with the paris climate agreement because we know that we can make money off of exporting clean technology and because it's the right thing to do we're going to have our try to have our own way of regulating migrants and keeping and protecting migrants because we need them in our state we want to raise our local taxes our state taxes so that we can invest in infrastructure because washington is not giving us infrastructure spending that's called devolution and the way you take a big country and make it function well like a small country is by taking those fifty states and saying how can we meet each of those fifty states better and then the whole country the whole united states will

eventually function better. or a perk that you wrote connect more plans together. you are so in the ninety's there was a lot of talk about globalising. borders in general speak about that book but you know what well the. national interests are on the rise. you have p.p.p. that's crashing what's up or globalisation so it's a great question a nice big question the funny thing is i don't worry at all about globalization i think we should all go to bed soundly at night when we think about the big global picture i think we should all worry about our own domestic getting our own house in order a lot lot more the reason people talk. about globalisation they treated like something that can be switched on and off like t p p was not passed by the united states therefore world trade is dead that's absolutely not true trade in goods is growing

digital trade is growing services trade is growing right trade does not depend on agreement or another remit and as soon as the us pulled out of all the other countries decided to meet and get together and move forward with c.p.p. and even china decided that it would become an observer. while the us left so don't worry at all about globalization the number of people crossing borders is growing the amount of capital flowing across borders is growing volume of trade is growing the flow of data is growing in every possible metric globalization is advancing not retreating let's ask ourselves what are we doing as a country what is russia doing what is germany doing what is mali doing what is america doing to maximize the reality of globalization to benefit themselves that's the only question that anyone should be asking is how do i as a person i as a city as a country get the most out of this global connectivity and that's really what these

. the comic to it that you are describing. and is looking already does this mean no more conflicts between the countries because you know here china an america that rivals on a global scene but their trade and economy is so intertwined it's really like crazy to even imagine a conflict between them is like a state conflict thing of a past well we have less border disputes than ever before we have less active hostile sovereign border disputes than ever before which is obviously a good thing that doesn't mean that there aren't rivalries that could flare up in the book what i do is i look at the last twenty five years since the collapse of the soviet union since the end of the cold war and i say look there have been predictions of war between china and japan and china and america china and india india and pakistan north and south korea with iran with russia lots of predictions of war about nine to be specific none of those nine wars have broken out why and

one of the reasons and perhaps the most significant reason is that rivals are actually very deeply connected to each other you remember the cold war although we were both very. united states and so you need not trade a lot with each other today china and america are among each other's largest trading partners right so it's a very different world in a very short amount of time and connectivity the physical connectivity the networks of connectivity the financial and trade connectivity are so intense even among rivals that it creates an obstacle or a barrier or a trip wire to military escalation in in a much stronger way a much stronger restraint than we've had to your question of sanctions because sanctions is the tool of today countries use sanctions to punish a challenge because no one wants to fight a real military war but if we're as connected as you are saying and it's going to

get even more so in the future is going to come to have quite. you can't sanction a country because you're going to end up hurting yourself and that's already true and we've seen this in the dynamic between western countries and russia you know where european food producers european industrial exporters have certainly suffered as a result of the sanctions on russia so it has been self-defeating in some ways it certainly has not changed the way in which countries are relating to each other so it's not modifying political behavior we it's very difficult to define sanctions in such a way that you can argue that they actually work effectively i'll be honest with you you know whether it's cuba whether it's iran whether it's russia they just don't actually work one of the reasons they don't work is actually structural it's because they're actually being implemented fully it's goes back to multi-line some countries may be sanctioning iran but others are not and therefore there is always a way around it so i don't believe that sanctions are the right way just about ever

i always believe that in gauge when is going to get huge the result you want faster and sanctions the problem is we just don't try because we think that sanctions are synonymous with being tough with talking tough with having a firm line but i only care about results and sanctions don't deliver results. or. it was only a matter of time before congressional democrats would attempt to impeach and remove donald trump from the presidency well it's happening at this point it is unlikely this endeavor will succeed this isn't stopping the never try.

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