you must it's not business as usual it's business like it's never been done before . still exist. the island is controlled by the u.s. government and. crave independence. either. still many do wish to join the us. leave every day.

with the country at a crossroads for anger of the island is on the rise. for the past few years several times what's going on in my native germany. of refugees. u.s. intelligence agencies indiscriminately listening in on german citizens and the government. and once again. from various political. experts and journalists. just how independent germany really is when it comes to decision making. whether it acts on its own national interests. someone else will.

hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle the trump putin handshake at the g. twenty is now part of history well their meeting appeared to go well both presidents said so moving forward on this bilateral relationship is problematic at best are the u.s. and russia destined to be enemies. across talking russia u.s. relations i'm joined by my guest peter because macon washington is a professor of history and director at american university as well as co-author with all over stone the untold history of the united states in pittsburgh we have dan koblick he is an adjunct professor of law at university of pittsburgh as well

as author of the plot to scapegoat russia and here in moscow we crossed alexander me curious he is a writer on legal affairs as well as editor in chief of the duran dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate alexander before i want to go to you first ok we can talk about russia gate we can we can talk about collusion you know i want to stay away from what i essentially believe is a fake story here but one thing that is never mentioned in the mainstream media that i'm aware of anyway it is what does russia want in its relationship with the united states we always are told what the u.s. demands of everyone else but what did the russians want in this by a lot of relationships but stan said basically zero go ahead alexander well this is exactly correct because of course the united states or shall we say the people who seem to be in control of the united states or at least its media and its political system never seem to be very interested in looking at things from the russians saw

it and if they did and let me say something that russia has actually a very easy come. three to find out what the russians want and what they think they would be surprised i think because they would find that the russians actually don't want very much from the united states what they want is to be generally left alone to sort out their own affairs which they are doing the russians are doing and they also want to work with the united states on certain issues of mutual interest if the united states understood this a workable relationship with russia would be possible because the united states never seems to that question we are in a collision course which is unnecessary peter in washington can you address the same question because we constantly are hearing what russia must do it must do it most leave crimea it must not be have any kind of connection with the people of

the donbass we hear constantly threats of of some kind of cutting off of energy and i could go on and on and on here. most of which doesn't make any sense because there's no dialogue about these issues it's just the dick tend to go ahead peter in washington. well the russians have their own view of the world their view of the world for the most part is different than the american view of the world they have a very different definition of their own national security interests the united states is in the habit of ignoring the russian perspective on its own national security we've been doing this for a long time it was back in one nine hundred forty five when the secretary of war stimson told the top of visors to president truman that the russian view of their own national security might be a lot more realistic than the american view of russian national security and the

big issue i think that's probably the biggest issue to the russians is the nato encircled. of course we know that back in two thousand. gorbachev was promised that if he allowed the unification of germany nato would not expand one thumbs with to the east nato is now expanded thirteen countries to the east it's doubled once again we're discussing it's doubled in size we're discussing again where this discussing ukraine again becoming part of nato it was in two thousand and eight when george bush said he wanted georgia and ukraine to be part of nato when they were talking about that again so in terms of ukraine russians have a different deaf definition and perception of their national security we need to understand it was saying we need to understand how the russians view the world which is different the americans view the world and to appreciate their own realistic national security concerns ok dan you've written a book the plot to scapegoat russia going to show it to

a stand you're going to go. you go it's very interesting again with what peter in alexandria said here i mean we get the impression in western media that if you have a different point of view and a different perception of the world that somehow that it's maniacal here and i think you know your title of your book i haven't read it i've heard great things about it it's because russia has a different view of itself of its interests and we've reported on this program for years is that there's been overtures many times to talk about european security architecture is come from moscow does not come from washington go ahead dan. yes well i mean you know another example is putin was the first world leader to call george w. bush after nine eleven to offer condolences to offer help in afghanistan and he gave help in the afghan operations in two thousand and one putin worked with obama

on the nuclear deal with iran and also helped get rid of the chemical weapons in syria so as you say russia has proven that it wants to work with us on a number of issues if you watch the all over stone interviews that putin often refers to the u.s. as a partner i think the russians clearly want partnership and as alexander said minimally they want to be left alone they want the encircled ment of russia by nato to stop could you imagine if russia or a russian block of that existed if they had troops on the mexican border i mean it's incomprehensible that that whatever happened you know the u.s. now has you know sold missiles to poland or romania medium range written missiles that could hit russia i mean from the russians point of view and russia is a country that's often been invaded lost millions about twenty seven million people

in world war two they've suffered a lot from wars in a way that the u.s. never has from their point of view they are constantly being threatened and all we have done is provoke them since the collapse of the soviet union which they thought would have been an open invitation to join the west in that never happened well it was conditional of course if you do x.y.z. one two three may be again a junior partner not something that doesn't fit with russia's so perceived definitions of security and alexander let me go to you. one again you look in the inability to look at the other side you know when we look at the summit in homburg. in putin trump agreed on an issue related to syria and the way i interpreted it is that again the russians show their patience because we all know we all know considering what's going on in the united states is that is trump calling in his own shots and i think that they took this small issue this very

important by the way in syria and the russian scientist saying can he follow through because russia's allies in this conflict will come through they've shown that repeatedly but the u.s. hasn't and i think this is a test it's a test that the russians want to see if it's worth continuing talking because if you can't trust your partner it's worth it why talk at all go ahead alexander well indeed this is the start of a new administration and i think the russians are still prepared to give this it ministration and donald trump himself some benefit of the doubt on these matters but they have to look back at all the various agreements that they have made with american presidents extending all the way back into the cold war and the fact is that they never seem to really come through because there's always changes policy in the united states or american presidents seem to have great difficulty in

forcing the policies that they have agreed with the russians on their bureaucracy back in september we also had a negotiated cease fire between the united states and russia in syria and it broke down within four days with an american air attack on a syrian military base so we will see what happens whether this administration is any more successful than the others and i think you're quite right i think the russians are waiting to see you know it peter that one of the things again you know i like to focus a lot in on language and in you hear from members of congress particularly the more hawkish ones. of course the the mainstream media that is an echo chamber for the deep state in the state department that russia must change its behavior but it's never seems to dawn on them that maybe they should change their behavior in some way shape or form that would be amenable to other countries in the world it's

either you know our way or the highway go ahead peter. i'm often amused to watch the mainstream media in the united states the perception is reception is that we should press sanctions we should punish russia for all the russia's transgressions and bad dealings in the world did you ever hear anybody on the mainstream media calling for the world to have sanctions against the united states when the united states invades iraq to everybody the maze free media call for the world to have sanctions against the united states to punish the united states for its overthrow of the government of libya and the creation of chaos throughout the world we suffer from what we call american exceptionalism we apply a very different standard to the united states when the united states screws up around the world our motives are always pure but somehow we made a mistake but we're innocent but we have a very very different standard and that's that corrosive environment that we live

in in the united states where we judge ourselves by completely different stand than we judge everybody else and unless we begin to get past that we can understand how the world looks to anybody else from the standpoint of the rest of the world russia might be a problem in certain areas but the main threat to world peace over and over again in every survey around the world this is the united states the united states is viewed internationally as the main threat to world peace americans don't know that americans are very limited very parochial and they don't have a sense of how we are perceived in the world or the role that we've played. for example if i can go on a little bit longer the whole question of hacking the election. ok you know russians certainly have the capability and maybe a motive to hack the u.s. election but the u.s. has interfered in election after election after election overthrown governments repeatedly you know this is not something that just seeded russia but other let me

jump in here peter and we have to go to a hard break and after a short break we'll continue our discussion on russia u.s. relations with r.t. . seem wrong. to shape our. outlook. and in. the trail.

find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing russia u.s. relations. ok let's go back to dan in pittsburgh a kind of to echo something that peter said before we went to the break here it's very interesting if you look at so many cases just recently let's look at ukraine. maybe historians peter will probably tell us one day or his generation that will follow what really was the motivations of the united states in overthrowing the democratically elected government things didn't go out the way go on the way they hoped for so it was russia's fault syria that conflicts are in all the way back in

two thousand and twelve russia wasn't involved in it at all but when things started going wrong of course it was the russians the did it's the that's why the country is still broken at war and we could go on and on we could go with the election in the united states hillary clinton lost the favorite of the mainstream media last somehow it must be someone else's fault it must be russia russia place the scapegoat role that you have in the title of your book go ahead dan. yes exactly and i think what else is going on is a psychological projection we try we tend to blame others and most notably these days putin in russia for things we're doing right so as you say people like what about putin in syria. in fact the conflict in syria goes way back before two thousand and twelve we know from seymour hersh and others that the u.s. was supporting jihad as syria is far back as two thousand and six or so in order to

destabilize the region and take power away from iran you know and then when things go bad in syria not surprisingly because we're supporting jihadists. and assad invites russia in to help them all the sudden as you say it's putin's fall somewhere only in the ukraine as you mentioned the us supported at least two coups there. in this century and in the case of the most recent one in two thousand and fourteen we have partnered in part with neo nazis in that country and again when russia is called in by ethnic russians in the donbass to help them. with their legitimate concerns again it's all putin's fault and so again we see. there's a sort of a historical mis sure about how americans i think view the world and i think

compared to the movie groundhog day for us history starts anew every single day yeah and so what that allows us to do is to forget about the last war we were lied in and therefore were able to be lied into the next one and i think that's exactly what's happening here russia continues to be the scapegoat to legitimize the u.s. as constant war footing which is not only bad for the rest of the world but it's bad for this country. alexander you know what it is then go ahead peter jump in that's the point of the program go ahead. i was just going to say that groundhog day has a happy ending. so hopefully we'll have you know hopefully something good will come out of this relationship between the united states to russia similar to the relationship in groundhog day well this is such a depressing thought trying to get it right this is a really depressing subject and i'm glad you brought some levity to it peter thank you let me let me go to experian and moscow you know it's perilous not to have

a relationship with russia ok you know one of the things i've said for years now on this program is that the united states and russia the united russia in the the in. west of what we could call it they do not necessarily have to be friends and i think it's their trajectories that show that they will not be friends because the west is. a post cultural postmodern environment now russia is a very conservative place and people like it bad way but it is perilous not to have some kind of understanding at least with russia in the west particularly with the united states because of so many issues that are happening in the world i think that is not clearly understood in particularly washington because it's groundhog day it's every day starts over and over again they're not thinking about the future go ahead and say well the point to understand about russia is first firstly it isn't you can a superpower it has the capacity to destroy the united states just as the united

states has the capacity to destroy russia and the if they go to war with each other they will take down much of the world with them the russians are very conscious of this and their policy is to do everything they possibly can within reason to prevent that happening that all it's to provide a community interest between these two countries so when one says that these two countries don't have to be enemies in his in their interests that they are not enemies verse series in some situations possibly partners in others hopefully but enemies would be extremely unwise and very diff dangerous for the world and for humanity as a whole peter in one of the things i find very perilous and your work with oliver stone in the untold history of the united states the supreme really suggest viewers

to take a look at it here is that it seems to me that there is some kind of collective amnesia there were some very troubling times during the cold war that needed really strong leadership from both. andries i would say to be able to back off from the rubicon here i am very worried i'm terrified that people in the foreign policy blog have just simply forgotten how dangerous the world can be when there are so many other things that could be dealt with together ok but not being friends being pragmatic that's enough go ahead peter. well alexander makes a very good point in bringing up the nuclear conflict the united states and russia between ourselves have a between ninety three and ninety four percent of the world's nuclear weapons right now we have more than a thousand nuclear weapons on hair trigger alert pointed at each other. well you

know the numbers on this the estimate is that even in a limited nuclear war between india and pakistan which one hundred hiroshima sized nuclear weapons were used that could lead to partial. to a new partial nuclear winter and up to two billion people being killed there probably would presently about fifteen thousand nuclear weapons in the world russia and the united states have most of them so if for no other reason just because of the nuclear threat we've got to begin to deal with these questions to get those weapons off hair trigger alert immediately putin and trump could do that but the broader perspective that you're talking about we should be friends and there have been times when we have reached out to each other we can talk about one thousand nine hundred forty two when franklin roosevelt talked about the four policemen and us and the soviet union and china and britain policing the world to create peace and stability we could talk about nine hundred forty five before roosevelt died we

can talk about what would have happened in one nine hundred forty five if henry wallace had become president as he should've instead of harry truman but perhaps the best example is the cuban missile crisis or what happened in the aftermath of the cuban missile crisis khrushchev on october thirtieth writes a letter to kennedy a remarkable letter and he said from evil some good must come our people have felt the flames of thermo nuclear warfare but we have to do now is eliminate every crisis every conflict that could possibly cause war between our two countries and he started to enumerate them and for the last year of the kennedy presidency kennedy and khrushchev were moving toward that kind of resolution to ending the vietnam war ending the space for doing a lot of things that would have changed the world and fortune that didn't happen but we can begin doing that again that in many ways we're closer now than we were at that point well. yes and no i think we're much further. away in another instance

i mean the irony of it of course it is peter is that that was a cold war with two opposing ideological world systems ok that is not the case today it is not ideological at least not to be extended was then dan peter just spoke sensi gave really very good historical examples but i look at mainstream american mainstream media in some british media every single day i see the opposite i see people want to draw a drumbeat to some kind of conflict we have to go after them we have to punish them we have to make them pay paper hoax the way i see it here but i am completely the opposite me and donald trump for all of his flaws i thought that he made a very good speech in warsaw and he talked about mutual values many values that vladimir putin speaks about all of the time go ahead dan. yes well i totally agree with you and bizarrely as you say the media particularly m.s.n.

b c c.n.n. there's conversations on those shows which seem to indicate they would a welcome world war three which is insane obviously and it's bizarre that this is coming from. liberals both in the media and in the population maxine waters. you know i'm i'm a left of center guy ok i'll be clear i'm i basically don't like anything about trump except for the fact that he wants to have a friendship or a partnership with russia and possibly. you know stop some of these crazy interventions you would think that that would be the one thing that liberals could you know pawed and support instead it you know you see again maxine waters upset that took trump and sat down and agreed to a cease fire in syria which again see. like you know

a sane person would welcome that. why do we want conflict with russia as has been noted the only good there's no good that can come out of that in fact you could have a catastrophic nuclear war that comes out of that warning to the bulletin of atomic scientists yeah ok i mean we're running out of time here alexandros or now we're closer now this new nuclear war that we've been yes alexander here in moscow. the irony of course is peter was mentioning if you know during the cold war capitalist america and soviet russia they sat down and talked but what donald trump talks of lot of your putin it's treasonous but it's everything is flipped upside down thirty seconds alexander last word goes to you one of the great problems is that the united states believes wrongly in my pinion that the previous cold war and he's very angry with the fact that it's now turned out that isn't quite how the russians

see it and this is one of the major concerns that the americans have with the russians and one of the great causes of friction the americans need to put behind them donald trump prove he's many flaws seems to understand this and i think many people in the united states are very angry with donald trump because he is a realist ok so i see it as he is he's a realist we'll end on that point many thanks to my guests in washington pittsburgh and here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. here's what people have been saying about rejected in the us and i think it's a long. the only show i go out of my way to find you know what is the really bad. the point zero. is the john oliver of our three americans do the same thing we are

apparently better than blue nothing's better than the sea saber you've never heard of low down for the night not the president of the world bank so very good we're going to seriously send us an e-mail and it is ours that i'll be here. much as you. will. you. hate. on them and. by then i got a session on the nod that they know. by then is a shift the long. haul to not a sudden loss is going on want. some.

so it. can be most of it was revealed to the pope multiple injuries among current america so for them to keep sophie hold the rope but shows your your mercy on the phone to the ball on the field of a political social services so you're welcome to put in a moral sense of what it might. want to make it of nothing. off allowed me. somethin to walk. down the aisle something while setting. the market a little huddles look ma that i would up to now maybe i maybe i'm moving forward after. the events of the past few humans a ghost myself several times. what's going on in my native germany. refugee.

us intelligence agencies indiscriminately listening in on german citizens of the government. and once again. from various political parties and various independent experts and journalists. understand just how independent germany really is when it comes to decision making . whether it acts on its own national interest ok or is out someone else will.

rejects allegations of collusion with moscow over a meeting with a russian lawyer last year with the kremlin saying she has no ties to the government. i mean reports the displaced. to return home. they have nowhere to go with the iraqi cities liberated has left to utterly devastated. and a cold front close behind the warm meeting between the two hundred twenty with the u.s. now apparently back tracking on plans to restore relations with russia.