the e.u. the new russia sanctions bill passed by the u.s. house of representatives could damage europe's and its interests. islamic state find those returning to europe leaving the authorities struggling for a way to deal with the. operation exposes how the pentagon gave away more than a million dollars worth of military equipment to agents posing as policemen. given and we'll have you next in line from hay almost studio until then it's crosstalk stay with us.

hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle the republican controlled congress can't unite around trump's legislative agenda but with democrats there in unison when it comes to punishing russia for alleged meddling in the two thousand and sixteen election russia will brush off new sanctions as it did three years ago but the europeans won't. cross talking the sanctioning of russia i'm joined by my guest mitch firesign in new york he is a fund manager and author of the book planet ponzi in charlottesville we have david swanson he is director of world beyond war dot org and in london we have alexander make your us he is a writer on legal affairs as well as the. ditter in chief of the duran dot com all

right gentlemen cross-like rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate alexander let me go to you first in london very broadly speaking what are these sanctions all about why now and most importantly what do they hope the u.s. congress and presumably trump is going to sign it and what do they want to achieve with this exercise go ahead alexander in london. i think there are a number of agendas that work here firstly there is an attempt by some people in the united states in the congress to lock in this whole argument this whole claim that russia somehow meddled in the election by forcing a sanctions decision on the president of the united states that makes it appear as if that view is now law secondly there are economic issues here there's an attempt to try and punish the russian economy even further and also to

obstruct the development of economic links particularly energy links between russia and europe and these sanctions seem particularly designed to counter that by obstructing various russian pipeline projects notably the nord stream to project between russia and germany across the baltic and to make that very difficult ok i think ok ok let me go to make sure i mean this in a way this is kind of like sanctions or a different form of of politics and in a sense that this is kind of a declaration of war it's almost a declaration of the cold war two point zero you know the united states and russia have very few economic ties and that's unfortunate for the us speaker but then again it's very unfortunate for europe because they do have a lot of contacts here if i get the impression that the congress is in even really

think this out because as alexander me curious just mention in london i mean the europeans have a lot of very important particularly the germans have a strong energy ties with russia and they don't want a third party the united states meddling in their bilateral relationship go ahead mitch in new york. yeah i think you get into a pretty dark area but you have to find a bad guy all the time and i think that russia has been determined as the bad guy to place blame on for a poor election cycle where the democrats had a bad candidate who is a criminal and they have to blame somebody so why not blame the russians now they're blaming the russians for expanding i think the real people that should be looked at are the country that should be looked at is china i mean if you look at china there intruding into india's borders if you look at what's really going on here my view is this is more of a play on energy if you think about the whole syrian conflict that the united states is involved in if you take a map of syria and you look at the oil and natural gas pipelines that go to europe

sure looks like it's more like a proxy war over natural gas and oil rights and it's the united states and saudi arabia's big energy interests versus russia and iran has interests so there's a lot of moving pieces to this and as we see it move on the russian narrative that they crafted so neatly and the political activism by the media united states moves forward an agenda to remove the administration ok that's exactly right david i mean obviously this is the this is the tie the hands of donald trump i mean it's really quite curious i think you know he's been in office for six months i haven't heard him speak about lifting sanctions or anything else when it comes to russia except for meeting with vladimir putin and having a dialogue and on the russian side as as a point of principle the russians are not asking that sanctions be lifted because they think the sanctions are illegitimate but then again there's congress and the

republicans full steam ahead on this i mean it it seems to me the sanctions this is the route you go to when you don't know won't know what else to do and that's exactly what they're doing go ahead david. well it's it's it is a form of warfare it is a violation of law and law enforcement as it's depicted it is a danger here of the republicans going along with the democrats targeting donald trump via targeting rush over the accusations not only of having stolen the election of which there's no evidence but of. brutally viciously enix in crimea and this is you know playing to a u.s. public that would much rather visit you know a liberated mosul than an annexed crimea this is how people understand things in the united states and you have this this stated punishment of russia for things it hasn't done combined with in the latest bill punishing iran not for violating the nuclear agreement which donald trump admits it is complying with and punishing

north korea for its aggression whereas most observers see the united states as the aggressor in korea these days but if you look at what's what's in the bill it's going after economic competition it's yes exactly right excuses hypocritically and it's going after media competition demanding another report on russian media as if that you know brilliant one by the cia some months back wasn't good enough so it's a mixture of of hostile assaults on the world and no it hasn't been fought through alexander or how does can you decide a good example where sanctions actually work because i mean i understand that the domestic political issues here blame russia blame putin you know that that's the easy way out and i read the bill and it's really quite it's really heavy on emotion ok not heavy on facts that's the usual case here but what do they expect the sanctions to do to change what behavior i can see it all.

well if we're talking about the sanctions against russia they have they have not changed russian behavior and they're not going to change russian behavior because as you said the introduction of the program the russians will brush these off they're not going to make a great difference there if you're talking about the general history of sanctions the answer is that it's dismal sanctions are very rarely effective if there ever a fact and effective in achieving the policy changes that they see if we were talking about north korea for example or the north north korean nuclear missile ballistic missile program has forged ahead despite all the sanctions the united states is thrown at north korea if however you are looking at questions of economic competition trying to stop europe expanding its economic links with russia

then to some extent one can say that these sanctions have been effective but they have been effective at a very high cost why and is already out and then the impact has been on the europeans more of that it has been one russia ok and let me let me go to mitch here now you know mitch i mean that this is when we i'm glad you bring up the energy sphere here because you don't get that in the in the cable stations in the u.s. because they talk about democracy the hacking of our election they talk about all these things where there's very little facts and given a after a year but you know michel i mean this bill is protectionist sits anti trade i mean what happened to the mantra of open markets and free trade in all of this it's it's it's blaring lee obviously a protectionist measure and it's a it's attack on the e.u.'s energy sovereign policies i mean it's extraordinary to me go ahead. yeah i agree i mean there's a bunch of issues that you've got to you've got to look at behind this i mean the

sanctions in general are meant to destabilize a government and make the people rise up against the government and create chaos within those governments that has not proved to work so you know you've got a bunch of octogenarians like clapper who is running the n.s.a. near octogenarian so who are so old that they resort to nine hundred fifty s. tactics which don't work in the modern day going back to energy if you look at the source of energy as i explained just look at a map and figure out that this is in europe's best interest to have pipelines put in that's why these sanctions penalize people who invest in pipeline companies or do joint ventures with pipeline companies which is anti-competitive in the united states shouldn't be interfering in the european markets now why would that be would it be because the united states has so many people that are producing shale you know the big shale boom that's caused you know oil prices to collapse look i went on this program two years ago and told you that oil prices when they were trading

at one hundred twenty dollars were headed towards twenty i'm still very negative on oil and i think we'll still see a twenty dollars handle in oil again so is there a battle for energy at the oldest of old in the middle east that's when all of these conflicts are about controlling energy supply so i think that's what we've got to look at and what we've got now is the deep state not the white house administration don't be confused they're not running the government the deep state is all these leaks are coming out of the intelligence agencies trying to destabilize our own governments they've turned the tables in the united states and now the intel organizations are trying to destabilize trumps administration to further their goals i hope that he has the sense to veto these sanctions ok let me let me ask david before we go to the break what are the chances that. veto this because it's a dicey political situation we all know that go ahead david. there

certainly is every possibility and we certainly ought to be pushing him to do so but it's very difficult in a politically divided united states where many people oppose trump for many diverse legitimate reasons to take his side against the congress particularly given the power and the duration of this anti russian propaganda but i think the real danger here is that this is a prelude to a war on iran and i great success in the history of sanctions is in the destruction of iraq in the lead up to a war on iraq so i mean it's not to overthrow governments it's to unite people behind a nationalist dictator and destroy a country as a prelude to all out war sixty seven years of sanctions on north korea fifty seven on cuba thirty eight on iran it doesn't what it what doesn't work what a track record where i let me jump in you guys here way to go to what shorts we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on new sanctions on russia stay with art.

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welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter we're discussing the drive to sanction russia. let me go back to alexander in london what i find interesting is again i like to bring up what how about looking at how the other side looks at this situation here so let's look at it from the russian side here i think there's no. you know people are overly excited about it i mean this is a trend that we've seen coming out of the united states let's be very clear with our viewers the sanctions that came into force because of. the american interpretation of what happened in ukraine in two thousand and fourteen those sanctions the average russian is a blip he is to them oblivious. really the only sector is the financial sector felt

it were cheap money from london and was not accessible anymore which is probably a good thing russia has plenty of resources and it should rely upon itself here so this next set of sanctions again as i stressed in the earlier part of this program trade relations are minimal so there's no leverage right there and the russians look at it is that find the americans don't want to be a partner let's move on i mean this nate's not such a big deal this is what we've been saying for the last few years go ahead alexander . i think that's exactly right if you go back to president putin statements or not of course just president putin the one thing that is coming across very quickly clearly in russia is of a proof round sense of disillusionment with any prospect of ever achieving in any foreseeable future any kind of partnership any kind of normal relationship with the united states if we just go back a few years. russia join the world trade organization there was

a huge campaign to get the jackson vatican amendment which restricted trade between russia and the united states lifted it was lifted almost immediately we have a host succession of sanctions one after the other imposed on russia and this is just the latest which one should remember of those sanctions i think the russians have now concluded there just isn't any future in this relationship of that sort they will work with the united states on specific issues where they think they can so they will find isis in syria to the extent that they can with the united states they will do it but imagining that the relationship between russia and the united states can ever be economically normal and non adversarial i think the russians and i just think think just the elite by the way are the ordinary people to in russia now accept that simply isn't going to happen and the russians are now looking at

their other options and they have many they have many here you know mitch i guess the real winner is sonali of this is that ok we have the unofficial of cold war two point zero it's been of been declared now the arms manufacturers well they go to the bank here are the liberal mainstream media they can't get over the election of last year they will keep pounding away on russia russia russia until the midterm elections you know these are the people the benefit from all of this and then we have the deep state has been. mentioned before they will drip out all of these leaks here to make sure that any kind of move to better relations will be impossible in the legislation is it remarkably is that if trump actually wants to do some kind of improvement with russia he has to go to specific congressional committees for permission to move forward he's handcuffed and everybody in the elite is quite satisfied with that go ahead midge. a big part of the problem is

neither the. republican old guard or the entire democratic party wanted the apple cart to be toppled by donald trump coming in and trying to drain the swamp. which is really important for democracy in america so what's the alternative now they're looking for an alternative i mean you've got a weaponized media all targeting donald trump every channel if you click between the different cable programs everybody has anti trump anti trump now the american people poll from one of the major pollsters in america came out saying less than six percent of americans care about the russian issues and they care about obama care and they care about the economy people want jobs they want to they want insurance health care insurance i don't want to hear a deep state narrative of why trump should be kicked out of office i mean i'll give you a really classic example that speaks volumes about america and the way the politicians act there's a congresswoman out in california name maxine waters who says everybody is evil

trump is evil and and she actually this clip go on you tube and watch their lips and i said putin he invaded korea he invaded korea so i mean this is a congressman that makes legislation that made six million dollars i don't know how i understand how that works lives in a lives in a mega mansion out near beverly hills well she says she doesn't even know. you know she says you know getting just a hard worker for the people how she ended up with all that money in public service well you know i think we can answer that ourselves here david you said something really interesting and i think it's a very very important is this permanent war footing and this is and i agree with you it said on this program many many times the real target is not russia it is iran they're looking for this is their opportunity. to continue down the path of confrontation with iran and they want to somehow neutralize russia to keep russia

out of the fold and that is a huge huge mistake like i said looking at it from the other side on the russian side is that it's not. unfortunately you don't want to move forward ok you've never presented any evidence that we hacked your election whatever that means ok but if you want to continue in your bubble in your media bubble your group think mentality that's your business but the business of the world moves on and then just as alexander me curious said in london russia has plenty of partners in the world and it will go where it's invited it's not invited in washington they even took away their their two dachas there ok no place to stay go ahead in charlottesville. yeah well the this is the big motivation behind this bill and many other bills in congress and almost openly stated to the media and now by spokespeople in the pentagon is that the hatred for russia or russia phobia is is driven by weapons sales and by bureaucratic inertia in the military and in nato this sells weapons

this is how john mccain really is that principled person that the washington post describes his principle is if it sells weapons he's for it and this is what drives things in washington but when i was in in moscow and saw you there peter not long ago i spoke with people who had been critics of lattimer putin who told me i will not criticize that man on till the sanctions end and then i will go back to criticizing him and this is the typical behavior of countries that are punished by sanctions and other means and i think what's remarkable in this case is the incredible restraint shown both in russia and in iran there has not been the vicious irrational hostile reaction that i think many in washington hope for the provoke something with this and they've been frustrated thus far you know how xander i'm really glad david brought that up because again it's you never hear this part of the the mainstream narrative is that you know the russians continue to even

up in hamburg ok if you want to come over and have dessert after dinner come on over we can have a chat a dialogue is what we need most of all this is the lowest point in relations we've seen since the end of the cold war during the cold war there were better relations between these two countries and this is a missed opportunity because i see this is a mentality of permanent war permanent enemies we don't have use for for diplomacy just as david pointed out we just need more arms and arms and arms and you know and that's this weaponization of foreign policy and we've seen it doesn't work so they just double down go ahead alexander. what they do they have to hold down in a very unwise and food ish way because of course what they're now doing is they're going directly against the fundamental economic interests of their own alloys the europeans need russian natural gas they need trade with russia they share

a continent with russia and if you are looking at the language that's coming out of europe especially germany but even france now they're saying we are not prepared to accept this this is something we're going to have to take a stand against so they are now creating a route yeah a tween themselves have their own major alloy now i don't really see this is why but as you say and as the others have said on this program we're looking almost at a run away train here where there is this. sense of policy and attitude very much taken from the nine hundred fifty s. as i think it was mitchell said it was the united states is absolute total dominance can impose what it likes on the world on its own alloys that world has passed people in the united states don't seem to understand this and they're now acting in ways that are just going to create more on position to them it will not

isolate russia it will annoy people who are friends of the united states you know mitch the underlying thing here and one of the reasons i want to join the program because you can get more of a business angle to all of this you know essentially this is a not a pitch but it's a demand that the united states be able to force its european allies to buy liquefied natural gas at a much higher price than what they can get from russia through pipelines i mean this is just twisting the risks of their our lives to buy something that is more expensive for them and further away i mean this is just a con job the way i see it go ahead. yeah i mean as i said the important thing is you follow the money follow the money and you'll figure it out you know the the one road policy that china has leads directly through syria this impacts energy but also one of the other guests mentioned weapons of war octogenarian mccain pushing sales of weapons of war now you know five years ago when the credit crisis hit they

included the sale of weapons of war in g.d.p. figures and it's no coincidence that the least share prices of all of these military industrial complex companies in america have gone up some of them two thousand percent since this happened you know it's a payday there's a multi hundred billion dollar organization of lobbyists that have they've actually installed the proper people in government to push through what they need to but when we have proportional apocrypha see in washington is absolutely staggering because the actual crimes that were committed by the clinton foundation hillary clinton and her associations with russia and her associations and the actual crimes committed by the d.n.c. which were never prosecuted yet they go after trump where there is no there's a will there is no real fire and the point that i made about syria just look at a map figure out the energy supplies ok admit you made it worth it why don't you

and you lead this is ruben run out of time gentlemen it was a fascinating discussion many thanks to my guests a new york to london and in charlottesville and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. the next time and remember. if we take for instance the size large enough to destroy a city say forty meters or so of the million or so asteroids out there. we have discovered perhaps a percent or so of that ten thousand of those perhaps. so in other words that means that ninety nine percent of them are undiscovered so you should expect that the great majority of asteroids which come very close to the earth to come as a surprise. flurry used to be a professional hockey player won

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