hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered peter lavelle is an american inspired attack on north korea in evitable one certainly gets that impression listening to washington's war hawks and theirs to knock occurs in the corporate liberal media is north korea a growing military threat of course it is but it is also under threat is there still time for diplomacy.

across talking north korea i'm joined by my guest when the one in washington is the chief political correspondent at c p n america in boston we have paul atwood he is a professor emeritus of american studies at the university of massachusetts and author of war and empire the american way of life and in beirut we cross the logic he is a philosopher novelist filmmaker and investigative journalist or a gentleman crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want but i always appreciate it ok weighing in washington let me go to you first here let me read a few quotes here trump says china could easily solve this problem meaning the north korean problem that unfortunate character the u.s. has at the united nations that nikki haley says time for talk is over before we get to how the u.s. and its allies look at north korea can you explain to us how the north koreans see their dilemma of be threatening western powers and their neighbor to the south.

well peter let's not forget the north korean issue was largely issue resulted from the cold war i mean the cold war largely waged by president harry truman based on an i c sixty eight document largely about the perception of soviet fear rather than factual assertions about soviet fear and then of course the invaded the north korea the korean peninsula which was one country throughout much of history up until the second world war it was one country one people one culture but then unfortunately the war happened and twenty percent of the north korean population were wiped out of this earth thanks largely due to the u.s. invasion so the memory of history is still fresh and currently the north koreans have. i'm not defending the north koreans but they do have legitimate security concerns you know one hundred sixty thousand u.s. troops stationed across western pacific the cold war architecture for deployment remaining largely intact and also around military exercises between south korea and

the u.s. so the regime of course thinking about its survival and is also feeling threatened both in memory of history and recent developments by the u.s. industrial military industrial complex poland in boston you know one of the remarkable things here is we we every few years we go through this you know this is north korea mania that i call it ok and it of course actions and reactions things that north korea does and reactions to in south korea in the united states and the actions of the south koreans and the americans because of the north korea ok but one of the interesting things here is that why doesn't if there's such great tension in this inevitability of conflict why don't the two sides to sit down and talk because the americans refused to do that why not go ahead paul. well the united states have to go back to why the united states wants to be in asia at all

ok why does the united states intervene ten thousand miles from mature and to and to answer that question you have to go back to the open door policy sounds boring but the bedrock foreign policy of the united states is the open door policy and when china closed the door after world war two initially the united states wanted to set up a client regime in china but that failed the communists took over and closed the open door and so the united states decided that career would be its first bastin against the encroachment of china and the closing of asia to american economic penetration ok but i mean let's talk about this the in this new killer thread i mean why don't they want to talk about that that's very important and that's pressing right now can you answer that for us go ahead home well you know the the real the real threat for the united states from the beginning was always china and you know we talk about one hundred sixty thousand troops stationed across

the. western pacific but there are also nuclear weapons surrounding china china is aware of that and you know the united states uses south korea as its primary base to you know basically send messages to china that. want so the united states is talking about a possible war a nuclear war with north korea because of china well that i don't know that that doesn't seem what. we well what what i'm saying is that you know that there's the chinese they have an angle in all of this the let me go to andriy in beirut i mean the chinese are not there to settle all scores in that part of the world because the united states has such a huge military footprint there the chinese have made it very clear that they want to go she asians they have limited ability to push the north. marine regime and they've offered a number of things solution diplomacy

a freeze versus freeze and there's a lot of diplomatic talk coming out of beijing so i think you know it's really incumbent on the united states to react to that go ahead andrea in beirut. yes of course actually china. is acting extremely peaceful in its own region in the asia pacific it is being constantly provoke on several fronts and there is that the. trying to reach peace agreements like the philippines are being contaminated. even at the overthrow their governments there are of course north korea is sitting. between i mean there is a border with china and there for russia and just imagine what interests of the west are if there is a so-called reunification of korea hostile the unification if there is a war and let's say north korea is going to collapse then the western regime is

going to or west of the empire is going to expand to the border with both russia and especially with china so this took on the sort of big snow on the hitlist sort of being intimidated by the worst both china and russia the two allies and the north korea would actually be. a new. hostile power because it would become it's kind of understood that if there is a unification of korea it would be like germany it would basically. it's of the principle sense and we saw alliances and we saw that happen with nato expansion here when let me go back to you in in washington i mean this is really the crux of it all is that you know the united states is making demands for its client state south korea but you know the united states could make a major move a good gesture i would even say of taking out its troops what are those troops are

there for i mean south korea is a very affluent country as twice the population of the north it has it has it's more than able to defend itself here. that would be one step in the right direction i mean the united states is tying itself to an alliance that is a really a no win win for all korea and china and russia but you know if there's a war there i don't think people in meant this are going to be worried about it ok and i think that's a very cynical go ahead in washington. well peter i think partly it is etiology and also it is about like i said military industrial complex wars or the prospect of wars are good business let's not forget ten percent of the u.s. manufacturing sector are weapons manufacturing so largest weapons manufacturer in the world also i'd like to respond very quickly to china to make some clarifications because president trump recently tweeted about china quote unquote doing nothing about north korea could do everything to solve the problem and he said they will not allow this to continue well it's really

a myth because for one thing how can he or washington expect china to do everything in turn in terms of security for the united states washington sells arms to taiwan patrolling south china sea regularly and much of the cold war for it employment intact and secondly china did do quite a lot quite a bit actually under as a member of the security council imports from north korea down thirteen percent imports of coal from north korea down seventy five percent western headlines focused largely on the overall trade volume increasing but that happened largely before the un sanctions kicked in finally president trump argument was that you know how can china why didn't china stop trading with the north koreans not using leverage against north korea well that's it is it logical argument if china did all trade with north korea how could beijing's leverage gorgons come from of course of

course you know paul can you weigh in on that there because the united states doesn't recognise that north korea respectively how you feel about the regime in north korea it does have security interest in the united states and recognize that it has north korea as a sovereign country a member of the united nations and has a right to protected so but it doesn't recognise it particularly if you look at the mainstream media go ahead in boston. well the american government clearly recognizes that they have a legitimate security interest the american public that doesn't seem to understand that because we don't have a sense of history in our country the united states intervened in a civil war in korea in one nine hundred fifty and turned it into a major conflagration in which millions of koreans on both sides of the border died where millions more of orphans and widows and the maimed were created. and you know the north korean regime doesn't want to see that happen again and as the south but if there is another war it is korean war true there will be an absolute apocalyptic

collapse catastrophe in east asia. north korea has i'm to itself with the deepest sense of security that it thinks it needs to protect itself against another onslaught by the united states it's very simple. and the north koreans are not going to preemptively launch their nuclear missiles against the united states although they can't do it right now. and the only time they will you they're not suicidal the only time they'll use them is if they believe the united states is about to take them out. so essentially it is it is to preserve the regime in the in the current political order there but seems quite reasonable here in the i'm glad you mention it calling the north korean regime in saying on balance and all that it does not help whatsoever it's very rational to protect yourself or a gentleman i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on north korea stay with r.t. .

the economic development is all about numbers really pleased to report this quarter we are one hundred six point two. but what do we know about the other figures. when i think about the fact that our c.e.o. mike do. over twenty million dollars last year more than one thousand times the average wal-mart associate. with all due respect i have to say i don't think that's right. it's not just you know a free market works. people went from pretty simple financial lives pre nine hundred eighty to the point now where people are. just totally submerged in their

financial accounts and they're all in debt and what exactly devoid society. the part of the government try to do. it might be making things worse. by saying this is not work this is. hopelessly disastrously wrong. you can't import health care from china it's all very local you have a case of. price gouging by monopolists. in america and as a result people south is declining life expectancy is falling childbirth is increasing because of these monopolies and a lack of competition. here's

what people have been saying about rejected and. the only show i go out of my way to. really go back to. is the john oliver of r t america's. apparently better than. a c. people you've never heard of love for the next president of the world bank very. seriously send us an e-mail. welcome back across the uk we're all things considered i'm peter remind you we're discussing north korea. ok let me go back to beirut under me one of the things i find quite terrifying is how callous the mainstream media talks about the situation in the in the korean

korean peninsula because you know what we've heard from paul and weighing in this would be a crowded catastrophic event in and very destructive here i mean seoul is what twenty miles away from the d.m.z. in of course in any kind of military assault north korea would be a would be turned into a moonscape like they did during the americans did during the korean war i mean by the end of the first year there were there were no targets to hit for aircraft by the end of the first year not the third year. how do you how do you explain this i mean that the callously. talking about we've run out of time we do we have no more patience you know we don't want to talk about resolutions here it sounds so exactly like they're going on a war footing there and how why do you why would you expect the north koreans to defend themselves again not defending the regime but the business the international order of sovereign states that's what i'm talking about go ahead andre in beirut well first of all if you listen to north koreans and i listen to them

a lot of interaction with their governments or of their artists or of their people when i went three years ago a spot of the delegation of france a clark former u.s. attorney general so if you talk to north koreans that actually they have very legitimate concerns the they suffered tremendously during the korean war let's remember that the media coverage biodiverse to media western media coverage of the korean peninsula was always extremely biased or scandalous one of the greatest journalists of all time of the twentieth century of bill for an australian journalist who actually went to the war and he who covered the conflict. i think about thousands of for tens of thousands of north koreans being literally destroyed murdered in the tunnels burnt alive in the tunnels he even lost australian citizenship for this coverage and he was declared an enemy of australian state

a very good friend of his son an artist with our lives so i know the entire story it was always boys now let's go back to history also and see why it's north korea so much hated it's not only because of the stand of between north and south korea let's remember that north korea together with cuba almost singlehandedly liberated the african continent from the colonialism so or north korean troops and i lived in africa for many years and i will say i think about it a lot the fault in the movie of the forty. the goal of the fourth again south african authorities even through mix egyptian mix against israel during the war. dr. many african companies. rich going through. to hope to build education system this is not discussed but this is one of the

reasons the us never forgave north korea for wrestling the call of ok let's let's get let's talk let's play with let's stay with the current tensions here on the peninsula here when let me go back to you here so happy to have you on the program to give a very clear. presentation to our viewers about how china thinks about this i mean china does not want to see the north korean regime collapse you would have a refugee problem that would create a security problem and of course as it's already been mentioned on this program is that you would have american military personnel in material going all the way up to the chinese border china has no interest in seeing that happen and it does have an interest in seeing it negotiated again china has come out with some good talking points to start negotiations is i mean has the chinese given up on it and just rolling their shoulders thinking what the americans are going to do next i mean we saw donald trump you know just attack syria based on no imperial evidence at least it was never presented to the public i mean it was

a gross violation of sovereignty and even a war crime i would say so weighing again you know kind of explain to us how the chinese see all of this saber rattling. we need to remember that if the u.s. has one southern border to secure china has thirteen borders to secure and many of our current or former nuclear powers and north korea is just one of them if there were to be a regime collapse in north korea the refugees would be a great burden to their northeast eastern chinese provinces three of currently under economic us from the economic transformation. huge problems for a local population and local economy and also i do not think that the us can wage a war easily because if history is of any reminder look at the countries they invaded afghanistan and iraq recently knob the new countries well they didn't they didn't do very well and i go back and then well they didn't equip themselves very well in the korean war ok by the way go ahead go ahead keep going.

and panama back in the eighty's non of them have a w and. or a cuba like you said and north korea back in the fifty's and sixty's beginning year decade of the cold war none of them or nuclear powered countries so i did not think that pentagon would easily go to war with the united states an estimate of how much casualty it would there be was provided by bill clinton aide back in the ninety ninety four period when he told bill clinton who was seriously considering a war with north korea he said there could be one million casualties on top of that one billion one trillion naturally economic losses so i'm not sure if the united states wants to go to war with a nuclear power never done so ok but here it's well you know about that and that is one of the reasons why people say that north korea develop nuclear weapons or a program in the first place because they saw iraq they saw libya they don't want to be the next victim here you know paul. can you explain to me i mean why do we

have this kind of rhetoric coming from the president from the u.s. ambassador to the united nations i mean really it sounds like they're trying to put the public on a war footing they were talking about you know with their patients is gone would. this. diplomatic approach patients from clinton through obama. been exhausted i mean what is the next step here are they do you think in your mind they're contemplating a real military conflict against north korea or is it just talking points and intimidation go ahead well if they were to launch a nuclear war or assault on north korea that would. no but it will lead to nuclear war. the north koreans have short range missiles capable of carrying nukes as far as japan from everything i've heard. why would the united states want to ramp up the tension on this. i don't know it's too dangerous. it just boggles the mind you know i'm always telling my students that.

allowing nuclear weapons to exist on planet earth is like leaving a loaded gun in a kindergarten you know soon sooner or later you know we don't abolish these weapons they will abolish us and yet you know we continue to put them at the front of our. of our ability to threaten well they say oh it's very interesting that you're saying that it's very interesting that you're saying that it's because there's only one country in the world that has ever used nucular weapons against the civilian population under me let me go to you in beirut i want to ask and i want to go to right to die and they should not repeat that same mistake on their i want to ask you and then my other guest the same question now here why doesn't the world accepted north korea will be a nuclear power. the soviet union than russia was china adversaries why can't we live without and mitigate its negative potential ok recognize the country as

a nuclear power and go from there i mean i think that is one of the only ways out it's not the best solution i don't see any good solutions to this but the worst solution would be war ok go ahead on three. i actually think that the war is accepting the fact that north korea is a nuclear power not except to the us were authority in the us and in the west actually north korea we keep talking about the north korean regime and how dangerous it is i don't see it as dangerous and i don't really think if you talk to people here in the middle east if you talk to people in latin america or if you talk to even people in asia they see it as something but it dangerous again it's something that this it's a big hype that. chicago or in los angeles or far away from north korea anyway and you know you see this look i know people walk all over the nation philippines. you know thailand based in thailand partially nobody even think about

this issue it's absolutely no issue so it's again some kind of and never will be an issue on this north korea provoked or attack north korea is still going to do anything to destroy southeast asia so i'm going to do and i think most likely do to attack japan unless the attack against north korea will come for a walk you know about from the u.s. basis and then of course the delegation will not be against the u.s. but against okinawa exactly exactly that's the thing about if you're in but if you're in most of the parts of the world north korea is not a threat it's not seen as when one of the things this brings up in something and i've been very critical of over the years is this in tangle ing. treaties and alliances the united states gets itself into because it ends up being wag the dog you have them with the south koreans who depending on what regime is there at the time would political flavor is that the time they can use the united states as low bridge for what it wants in its security and the japanese do the same thing i mean

another alternative and i know that this is again one very bad solution is that you know then south korea and japan. and should have their nuclear programs there do you think north korea is going to like that maybe that's going to make them think twice and is thinking out of the box here because what we've been doing the same it's this the same treadmill round and round every few years we owe my goodness north korea is going to destroy the world ok i mean we need new thinking like that when going to the last minute of the program go ahead of course the united states argues that it is a force for good look at what happened after world war two there were reconstruction of asia pacific the prosperity of japan and korea but they should also bear in mind that at the same time when it takes time it's complicated the situation and created more conflicts look at territorial disputes between russia and japan and washington always stand on the side of their allies and when there's a south china sea dispute washington stand stood on the side of the philippines and

when there is a east china sea island dispute standing on the side of the japanese again so without regarding the historical issues of comfort women issue with the korean war issue those issues were largely forgotten but they should bear in mind those historical perspectives to truly understand the realities of today and if they did that maybe western audience would think differently about this what i would say manufactured crisis that we see every couple of years and i want to thank my guests in washington boston and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember rostock rules. look

at this year that. egypt. by then coffee for sure they're not there. by then is a shift the. not. going on. so it. was a. multiple injuries along cranking up the so don't cut yourself you know what shows you where you are so that. you can put a command the focus of the say. you know. what.

something that was. something. a little tiny holes look not. what i can now maybe i maybe i maybe for that. economic development is all about nobody really pleased or isn't this quarter we earned one hundred six morning. but what do we know about the other figures. when i think about the fact that our c.e.o. mike du made over twenty million dollars last year more than one thousand times the average wal-mart a says c.n.n. with all due respect i have to say i don't think that's right.

just you know a free market would. people went from pretty simple financial lives pre nine hundred eighty to the point now where people are. just totally submerged in their financial accounts and they're all in debt and what exactly devoid society from the part of the government tried to do both at nestle mrs. markham. the. work this is. going to want to. get. your. resources you know.

so you know you're not. you know just i mean. i mean. there's been up and i must. get rid of. this but. yes it will be in the. little blog so when you on the idea that dropping bombs brings peace to the chicken hawks forcing you to fight the battles that still. produce offspring to tell you to be gossiping probably by itself. doesn't tell me you are not

cool enough to fight. all the hawks that we along with all good fun. i think that there are ways that it can be done. but never in a way that patrice that such a. situation should be.