you're. not safe for five years twenty six sailors were held captive by somali pirates before they eventually walked free but there are other cases where people still are being held hostage. how can you keep pirates at bay while we ask the man who's negotiated the pirate groups to secure the release of hostages the coordinator of the support partnership for oceans beyond piracy organization colonel john is with

me today. from the gulf of guinea and in the horn of africa to the streets of singapore. piracy is as real today as ever. and putting people's lives in danger what is a more than pirate. and what needs to be done to contain that threat. colonel john stevens coordinator of the hostage support partnership for oceans beyond piracy is senior adviser to u.n. . time crime program it's great to have you on our program welcome so you have negotiate with pirates to free hostages many times who are they an organized crime unit hardened professional types or just individual criminals randomly banded together. a combination of both actually over the years of course somalia has suffered appalling was and famine and dry out and economic problems and so alone

the coastal areas the conditions are pretty poor and as a result under the leadership of criminal elements these pirate gangs were formed and went out to sea and were able to capture quite large numbers of commercial ships and hold them for ransom now he negotiated the answer to one of the longest ever hostage sieges by somali pirates twenty six sailors were held for five years what did they agree to in return for freeing the hostages i mean did you have to pay them off oh that's a good question i can answer some of that but maybe not all of it. you know we over the last four and a half years and that's a very long time for anybody to be held hostage in a in conditions like somalia. we had to find a way to negotiate with these people and find some leverage the neighbor of them to come to a deal you probably remember that at the height of piracy when the commercial ships

were being held off somalia usually the insurance company paid out on the value of the ship and the value of the cargo and these pirates were used to getting huge sums of money in the many millions. and then yet there were some cases where the crew got taken to shore and that's where our program was formed to look after what we called the forgotten hostages but part of the negotiation technique was to find a way of getting the pirates down from what they used to expect to something that was much more much much lower and what sort of compensation but what kind of payoff are we talking about because how do you make people who want money for instance strike a deal without it. well that's one of the. reasons it takes quite a long time of course. but in this case we found in agreements and partnership with the local community with tribal elders and religious leaders who also wanted this

over with and put pressure on the pirates as well. you have to understand that and it may sound a little corny but these people run up debts you know over the four and a half years they've had to buy food to pay for gods and transporters they move these people around and they run up quite considerable debts so what they really want is these debts to be paid and that's where we were able to find an accommodation the local community wanted their debts paid that wanted to be paid for the food. and we wanted the crew back and that was eventually how we were able to strike a deal i mean that's for maintaining the sailors hostage because i heard those sailors were eating rats. exactly that's why as i say it sounds a little bit corny no they didn't look after them well many of the many of the crew were tortured by these pirates. in the early stages. but yet they did provide

water and some food and they had to get that from the local village and the local community and it was paying those days where we were able to find a deal that deprives even care about their hostages well being just because you know they made them alive for ransom right. yes in the normal course of things you know in ransoms anywhere around the world the commodity that they are going to get eventually get paid for is the host each so you need the hostage alive and healthy but you know in the in the somali context in living in the bush living under the threat of conflict interference from other gangs. they always want a quick deal they have a habit of torturing the pirates they sorry the crew whilst they're on the phone to their family all the ships or even us and they seem to have little regard for the crew as you know three of these crewman died the captain died when the ship

was first attacked and two other crewman died from you know what i would call nick clegg's jury in the course of their captivity now you say you never been face to face with pirates so how do you communicate with them pirates are very modern people they communicate by what's up and text and phone call communications in somalia are quite good but what they do is a point to negotiate. for them and somebody who's good at communicating speech good english and knows his way around some of these communicate to become quite expert being the middleman and have been involved in many of the sort of commercial transactions and so by and large we talk through them rather than talking directly to the pirates really say they're so modern they have. they probably have bank accounts as well right money transfer take place. i don't want to go into too much

detail about the about the money transfer primarily because we may need to use the same system again there is still an large number of hostages inside somalia so our job is not finished so i don't want to go into too much detail about how that is done but largely these kingpins of the masterminds behind these pirate gangs become well known people some of even the paid on un sanctions. and going off to the king pains was one of the methodology countries used to try and end this. now you have sat agreeing on a deal links to paris behave honorably how do you make sure that that deal is successful how do you know when they'll hold up their. their end of the bargain and what happens if they stand you up. well that's always the you know the thousand

dollar question i have to say in the in the years that i've been doing this we've never been double crossed by the pirates you know in the end they want to deal as much as we do and we just try and find ways of binding the main into that deal in our case we use a contract and we get the pirates and the local community and the representatives of the hostages themselves to sign that deal i'm not sort of by the mean and makes them behave honorably they need to trust us as much as we need to trust them so if everybody behaves in the right way you know you hope and pray that you're going to get a good deal and you're going to get the people out so once you negotiate the hostage release he obviously know a lot of aeration about pirates and their their whereabouts right so usually like when there's an f.b.i. operation or cia operation you capture or you released a hostage but then you definitely go off for

a person who keeps that person hostage what happens with the pirates why do people not go after them why do people not capture the attackers afterwards. over the years of piracy a large number of pirates have been arrested and appeared. in court and been sentenced to. jail. i assist of built a number of prisons around the region and in somalia and they are full of somali pirates who've been captured by international navies at sea and handed over for prosecution but there is still there is still the miss the big and the individual hostage takers that. mia need to be eventually prosecuted if the opportunity arises are you aware of the pirates whose name is. he was

encouraged to make a visit to belgium to make a film and got arrested by the belgium authorities for his involvement in the piracy of a belgian flagged ship and he's currently undergoing trial with one of the regional presidents. right now so that we've had been quite successful at getting some of these people and putting them in jail. piracy today is not like the old days right when pirates sailed on their own frigates with cannons the modern day pirate is a guy shorts are with a rifle how do they manage to overpower a huge mercian ship was just speed boats limited arms. in the early days that is exactly what they were doing they were sailing in a number of skiffs quite long distances away from the somali shore i'm you know down as far as the seychelles and up into up into the gulf area so they ships quite

a long way away from somalia but they would approach with several skiffs and open fire on the ship. on the bridge of the ship and communicating with the captain to stop. in a lot of cases the ship stopped and they were able to board and then take that ship or bring it close to the somali shore once it was close to the somali shore it was difficult if not impossible for the navies to engage old board a ship that static and has a whole bunch of pirates on board and you know what has happened since the last major attack on the ship was in two thousand and twelve and you know this is being prevented by a series of measures one of which is having a naval presence on the raw there is the european union navy and several independent navies operating in the region in a counter piracy row but also the shipping industry and. management

practice and that basically says that when you're in the high risk area you report in and out of the area and use you sail very high speed and one of the most significant factors you carry and board and it's the combination of these measures that's made piracy impossible and why there hasn't been an attack since two thousand and twelve but my big warning to everybody is. if you reduced the navy. ship to sail slower or you are one of the poor then you'll give these pirates the opportunity again they haven't gone away they're just doing all that they. were going to take a short break right now. global maritime crime unit and he shares his experience in negotiating with. hostages taken. its.

chemical discoveries over the last century made easier. this is serious. industrial benefit.

the toxic environment continues to poison lives and we found these astronomically high levels of. maybe some of the highest levels in the united states almost thirty years this. serious problem had not actually been addressed will lead investigation into the chemical industry secrets revealed. this was. the worst. you can see the border from here was a. steel fence on this side. like they said this is this is. and this is. i have every right to

be here have the right to call collect my food be a part of my family on both sides of the border. play started an organization called the arizona border recall we or a standalone entity. that is doing. with these to be done in the five years it's getting worse the violence is escalating because it's. really good are great when somebody calls you know they believe that their ranch is there are areas and they don't believe. that that is taking responsibility for their security which we would for anywhere else.

nowhere back with colonel john stainton coordinator of the hostage support and partnership for oceans beyond piracy discussing the global fight against piracy and maritime crime welcome back to the show colonel so armed security has a good success rate off the somali coast but in the western waters of west africa the pirates done shy away from a fight and win sometimes why is there

a difference. i don't think there is a huge difference in the pirates. were pretty aggressive too in the early days and off west africa you know the pirate groups are equally aggressive and you know have attack ships in ports you know as well as on the high seas i don't think there's a huge huge difference also in southeast asia piracy is pretty aggressive violent . so violent supplies all over the world. you know i've heard that they somali pirates complain that nigerians operate off their coast and the somalians and getting all the bad press why do pirates care about their reputation i mean considering what they do but you know somali pirates you know they are largely you know they're criminal gangs they're run by criminal masterminds they're not interested in what people think of them and they don't really care too much about

the hostages and as you've seen you know several have died. in the case of this one hundred three that we've just managed to rescue back in twenty thirteen it was tied to another ship also held by the pirates and that ship sank on a stormy night and despite everything the bravery of the crew of the nine hundred three several of them jumped into the sea with ropes in order to rescue the the poor guys from the ship called the beta eventually the obeyed oh it's taken ashore we managed to we managed to get them released in twenty fourteen but you know this crew with and held for a long time off and it's one of the things that drove us to get them free is they were such heroes rescuing the guys from the. so to me they were real heroes but the pirates definitely didn't care about them all the crew the they just for

the save their own lives. so our commercial vessels insurance against piracy i mean it's hard enough to get your insurance company for your car accident how to get millions out of them for a stolen cargo. well i guess the ships are insured and of course sailing in the high risk area the insurance premiums became quite high but if you're insuring a a ship worth many millions of dollars and a cargo that's also extremely valuable the insurers you then were able to pay out these fairly high ransoms that the pirates were asking at the time do insurance companies have an incentive to go after the pirates to get their money back do they take the car and they anti-piracy fight no i think you know just like you as a journalist you go on assignment in a high risk country your your company in shows you and you have kidnap and ransom

insurance when you travel in high risk countries it's the same with ships the insurance companies. don't expect to get their money back but you know they do expect their clients to use all that mitigation method methods that i talked about earlier sailing at high speed calling an answering in and out of the high risk area but they don't expect to get their money back and now not all states have a right to persecute paris for instance nigeria were a lot of pirates come from doesn't have a comprehensive law against them why not. good question i don't know i'm not an expert home on west africa the indian ocean is more my area of expertise but you know piracy is an international crime it has to take place on the high seas for it to be an act of piracy if it takes place in shore then it's just armed robbery at

sea so cheap to totally different crimes but the when it takes place on the high seas is an international crime they pirates can be arrested by any country and handed over to a country that also recognizes piracy is a crime so quite a lot of pirates were arrested on the high seas and taken to the seychelles for example and prosecuted in a court. there in many pirates to serving their time in say show in the seychelles prison the same here in kenya kenya recognizes the international crime of piracy it has under its own law recognizes that crime and therefore they were able to prosecute the same in india where there is an awful lot of pirates in prison the moment so it's an international crime and can be tried and prosecuted by anybody who recognizes that crime as stealing crude means hijacking the tanker disabling its tracking devices hiding it and then finding

a buyer for the oil i mean the very high value of crude was worth the hassle but with the decline in oil prices are pirates also losing interest. good question i think largely you know the answer is you know they don't have to hide the vessel too much they just have to park the vessel somewhat off the shore where they can they can they feel that they're safe and don't get any interference while they negotiate with the insurance company they're not trying to sell the crude oil or siphon it off into small advantage is that's far too complicated it's much better to go for the insurance. according to a report by risk consultants to guard a world hijackings for actual products are becoming more rare as hostages taking more profitable for pirates nowadays. i think it was but it's become less successful for the reasons we talked about earlier on. kidnapping for ransom in

conflict areas you know it is pretty prevalent you know in many places all over the world even in somalia the risk of being kidnapped on land is quite is quite high i can think of several examples of where people have been kidnapped in somalia and then handed over to the pirates for negotiation and run something because the pirates are somewhat better or more experienced at it. there are recap of kenyan cases that i can think of two men who were building a petrol station in mogadishu kidnapped and held by a group of pirates further up the coast. full full suppose it ransom so five years ago the somali in paris where the most notorious what about now which place on earth is the most dangerous for seafarers probably west africa and. southeast asia but probably west africa is the most dangerous at the moment where

those of powers don't leave on boats they need shore bases to operate anarchy in somalia explains piracy there but what about the south china sea what about the gulf of guinea air where are those pirates based what states exist tolerate pirate bases on their soil. they're not tolerated they just able to hide in isolated areas on the coast where policing is extremely difficult there and they are able to help. or small in that it's. well away from prying eyes but when they take a big ship you know they have to park that ship somewhere where they can actually negotiate for the crew all for all for the whole for the cargo. navies and police units will not interfere with the vessel once it's fully boarded and guarded by pirates and to take

a ship in those conditions requires very special very special special forces special forces and military intervention in any any hostage situation as you know from around the world is very complicated and only done in the extremis so largely the pirates feel pretty pretty safe once they're close to the shore and they have their full complement of guards on board now the philippines president. said he will adopt a hardline stance in dealing with piracy in south asia similar to. that is killing them is that going to work. well i. don't condone killing anybody but you know taking a hard line of policing a line with with pirates you know is definitely the way to go how well equipped police forces who are able to stand the maritime environment that can the rest of

these pirates on the on the on the high sea have good laws to prosecute. you know pirates respond to a strong deterrent walsall we're always developing technologically advanced ghost ships cargo ships that don't need a crew to sail can autonomy's ships be a safer option for international shipments or are they going to be easier to pirates target for pirates target i know too much about go ships but you know my understanding is you know commercial shipping is going to continue the way the way it currently is for quite some time time yet but ships with small crews all know crews of course are going to become vulnerable and we need to develop new. right colonel thank you very much for this interview we're talking to colonel john state coordinator of the hostage support partnership for oceans beyond piracy

senior advisor to the u.n. maritime crime program and negotiator who has secured the release of hostages held by somali pirates discussing global counter piracy efforts and if the battle against crime on the high seas can be won that's it for this edition of next. temperature. up here.

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