i'm. back in. the headlines here and hundreds of anti independence activists protest involves a loner as catalonia president says the region is ready to break away from spain in a matter of days. we. were. almost a year on from the presidential election in the u.s. a u.s. senate intelligence committee says russia's alleged meddling did not affect the vote count in any way. and russia's defense ministry says one of its.

eliminated the leadership of the terror group in syria. of believed to have been killed in the group's leader left in a critical condition. you can find out more about those stories on dot com and we'll be back with the news in about an hour in the meantime there discusses the aftermath to learn its independence vote and what it means for democracy in the. hello and welcome across talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the people of catalonia went to the polls seeking independence the spanish state reacted with force against peaceful voters still get. the question arises what is

the e.u.'s commitment to democracy and who is allowed self-determination. across the uk in catalonia i'm joined by my guess up in london he is a professor of political science at coventry university as well as author of referendums and ethnic conflict also in london we have matthew goodwin he is an expert in european politics from the university of kent and chad ham house and in paris we cross to john laughlin he is director of studies at the institute of democracy and cooperation right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate let me go to jan first in paris john can you give me your assessment of what happened on sunday because from an optical point of view it was an utter disaster what are the political consequences and does it start some kind of cascade effect for catalonia as the people that live

there want to move towards independence and what about the rest of europe go ahead john in paris. well i don't agree that the people want independence that's not what the opinion poll suggests and i think it's very important not to react on the level of emotion just because we've seen a picture of people being whacked over the head with a truncheon doesn't mean that we take the side of the unfortunate recipient of the policeman's force. i believe that the catalan independent is doing what many revolutionaries have done in the past which is deliberately to create a situation of conflict both legal and physical conflict in order to up the ante and aggravate the crisis they hope that by doing so they will be able to gain political advantage in a situation where in fact they don't enjoy it as i say the independent ists in the minority in the region of catalonia as a whole and while many people have said that. the spanish authorities overreact. my

view is that in fact they should probably seize the initiative now and should dissolve the autonomy of catalonia there's a provision in the spanish constitution allowing them to do that and do what many european countries or some european countries do in similar situations where provinces even those with autonomy become on governable and that is imposed direct rule because i am convinced i repeat that the spanish secessionists want this conflict they want images of policeman whacking illegal participants in a referendum over the head they want to break down in the constitutional order because that's the only way that they will achieve independence ok matthew way you know that because i mean just that's a kind of risky scenario that john is putting into play right there of course you know we we have to make make clear to our viewers that according to madrid the referendum itself was illegal others are telling me it's not illegal it's not constitutional here the the element of autonomy in catalonia it's

a longstanding thing here dissolved in their self rule would probably be disastrous go ahead matthew. well i think if you have a want recipe for creating a violent revolt all or revolution in the european union member state you just heard it stripping catalonia of autonomy imposing direct rule tell me any way in the world that has provided long term peace and stability the reality of what has happened. in catalonia is not really only so much about expressing majority or minority opinion it's simply about expressing a view and expressing share an opinion and being able to do that without having state services and police or thora t's injuring almost a thousand citizens as we saw on the streets at the weekend this was a p.r. disaster for the incumbent spanish government it was then a p.r.

disaster for the european union which reacted i think some with some would feel hypocritically in respect to spying i'll ask myself pizza you know what would have been the reaction were this to have happened in eastern europe or even the u.k. countries that have been perhaps less tolerant and less deferential to the european union i dare say that. would not have come out and said that this was simply an internal matter and spoke quite passively quite weakly about the need for the liberation i think the reality is actually the opposite of was just being suggested in terms of why for what i think is going to have to be some agreement of actually giving catalonia more autonomy a little bit like we've seen in the past region a little bit like we've seen in. scotland and northern island but this idea of imposing rule and stripping catalonia of the of the rights that it does have at the moment is ludicrous magnum of one of the things that i find really disparate the

way let me get to get everybody in here first one of the things i find bothersome is that kind of echo a little bit what john laughlin had to say will become. what happened on sunday and the use of force probably and i think we'd all agree kind of skewed the vote for the people that did vote in the votes that were counted i would have liked to have known and i think the spanish government in madrid probably should know as well is that under the conditions in which the referendum was held who is for it and who is against it now we don't know and i think that's really quite tragic here because now in now it is intensely politicized i think matthew in london is absolutely right is that the government of madrid is showing shame and i behavior and the european union's reaction to it equally as well go ahead matt in london. well i think of course the belgian government i think came out in full force no wonder no wonder i sort of listened so much to the belgians no wonder you know why they do have their own problems i think what is interesting. what i think is interesting

about this is that the bait played straight into the hands of the of the of the independent if you like but what is also interesting is when they when matthew said before they should be given a similar level of autonomy to what the basques have i think what is interesting is that they were trying to give them that they voted for that in a referendum which would then challenged by that no position polarized that hoary who got the constitutional court to intervene and then all pretty much all hell broke lose so i think the problem is that it's in the making of especially the parties of the right in spain who was spoiling for this fight and we interest in this fight and in some ways can benefit from this battle because they don't have a majority will take the focus away from the troubles they have against the majority so it's a case of both sides have an interest in escalating this when the sensible forces in spanish politics in this case the p.s.o.

we the socialist party say we probably need to change the constitution and that is the only way forward. in all of it which goes back to the ultimate true in the early two thousand overthrown by the courts. if it only been that if you go back and revisit that then i think it would help the problem is that has been ruled unconstitutional by the courts and therefore i think the only way forward is to find some sort of constitutional reform which of course the government has not been willing to do you know john you in there with some and i think it's kind of interesting if they compare what's going on in catalonia to the might don in two thousand and fourteen in ukraine where you know i repeat you know it's so old as we want to be free we went away ourselves but if you look at the elites in catalonia. they're aiming for something very different ok they want to hire a seat at the table at the e.u. summit reports that i read about some of their strategies is joining the e.u. for membership becoming

a member of nato i mean you don't get that in the mainstream media you get this piece and you know what a lot of people are i'm sure they are and no one should be beaten up for voting go ahead joe. but you say no one should be beaten up for voting the fact is the referendum was illegal it was illegal both under spanish constitutional law because the court had struck down not just the referendum but also the independence laws which preceded it and provided for it it was also illegal under the terms of the statute of catalonia itself whose articles two to two and two to three lay out procedures for reforming that statute and they include consultation with the spanish parliament i think. committees and referendum and you know to say as matthew godwin did that no other state in europe would do such a thing really biggest belief because in the united kingdom we have a troublesome province where opinion is split between unionists and republicans just like in catalonia i'm talking about northern ireland and the constitution of

the united kingdom allows direct rule to be imposed on northern ireland as it has been including in periods following the good friday agreement so this is a perfectly normal constitutional procedure and your comparison with my done is right peter because the my down revolutionaries wanted exactly what the catalan revolutionaries want which is as i said in my first answer a breakdown of the proper procedures a breakdown in law and order because that is the only way they think they can seize power they know that they can't do it by following the procedures because there isn't a majority in catalonia for independence ok matthew you were dissenting when john was saying go ahead matt. matt is respect for dissenting because i think first of all one has cannot confuse legality with due to misty and there's certain actions that are lead. cole would normally just admit the simple what move in america was probably. on the wrong sort of the wall because. the referendum in both nine hundred eighteen nineteen ninety five were technically speaking extralegal and

so was the referendum in bosnia-herzegovina in the early nineteen ninety s of the european union recognized so i think sometimes just saying that things are all in accordance with the rules is a way that would breed illegitimacy even political system and can break it down and the direct rule that was imposed all through the good friday agreement. to. a greater level of animosity that was necessary between the irish and the british governments so i think i would go back. and looking at the canadian example where casey can. come up and said well ok so it's. not let me just let me jump in here let me let me let me hang on let me jump in here let me give you the last forty seconds on the first half of the program ok go ahead matthew before we go to the break while i just i just i just echo a few of those points peter i think that those points from out there were spot on

i'd also add you know that when you look at the e.u.'s response as well the e.u. is incredibly anxious not only that for brics it was going to lead lead to a sort of contagion effect across europe but also with catalonia that this cleaned up and would lead to a sort of domino effect across a separatist europe weather related to. corsicans and sold more than it's really and some cases in central eastern europe but the e.u. is always very good at responding at the government level but it is has been consistently i think very bad responding it will they will certainly have been a little ok all right gentlemen i would actually i'm going to jump in here gentlemen or go we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll. genuine discussion on catalog stayed with.

in the us a child can choose a nominee course in school. with a retired officers as teachers we don't. recruit will says to if the cadet is interested in going in the military but we don't recruit ourselves. the pentagon is funding a program to boost interest in the military among teenagers. to step up to an apollo so that comfortable with yourself. things you can't go wrong with the military it's a great stepping stone for whatever career you want to do but some veterans are willing to tell enthusiastic children a little more they ask me call of duty is very popular first sure video games. it's play and that's because the military like call of duty to turn off call of duty oh yeah well you can turn off your lot of these kids just don't hear. the darker side

does the pentagon allow them to be told or does it just need more recruits. economic development is all about numbers really pleased to report this quarter we are one hundred six point two. but what do we know about the other figures. when i think back that i see. over twenty million dollars last year more than one thousand times the average wal-mart associate. with all due respect i have to say i don't think that's right i. just know a free market works. people went from pretty simple financial lives pre nine hundred eighty to the point now where people are. just totally submerged in their

financial accounts and they're all in debt and what exactly devoid society. the part of the government try to do. might be making things worse. by saying this is not how capitalism works. goes hopelessly disastrously wrong. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing catalonia. ok let me go back to john laughlin in paris right before winter break i'm matthew was bringing up that contain jet effect here what is the where is the place of self-determination well where does it stand now in the european union because it kind of reminds me of a saying and i think you all know what i'm getting at one man one vote once ok i

mean is there room for self-determination or is it all a done deal once you're in in the in the club go ahead john. well previous because have mentioned. back in one thousand nine hundred two the quebec case is very clear . the supreme court of canada in one thousand nine hundred eight ruled and this ruling is widely accepted or was until two thousand and ten. it ruled that it would not have a unilateral right of secession and since that ruling was made the widely held view among international lawyers based incidentally also on the charter of the united nations and on various resolutions of the general assembly of the united nations is that except in situations of colonialism or where there have been violent mass violations of human rights there is no unilateral right of secession and of course i'm not saying that legality is the only condition in politics i very much agree

with a recent headline in the spanish newspaper which said the law but not only the law of course there needs to be legitimacy underpinning the overall application of law but the point i'm making is that by encouraging a breakdown in law you open the way to violence and that is exactly what happened in bosnia. mads rightly said that the european union recognized the one thousand nine hundred two bosnia referendum it shouldn't have done that it was reinstate and it caused three years of war it cost three years of war and similarly and that is why nobody has ever impugn spain as a democracy in recent decades nobody has said that the constitutional court is stuffed with. yes men the procedures have to be followed and the left wing extreme revolutionaries in barcelona are trying i repeat to ensure a breakdown in law and order because that's why they that's how they think they can gain their goals you know matt same question to you i mean what how does the issue

of self-determination sit now in the european union if once you join the european union it's all set in. meant but we know it and we couldn't numerate on this program that there are a number of separate is issues all across the continent and they actually at the end of the cold war they started to take root and how do you deal with that because maybe how you deal with catalonia can set an example for others where it can be a win win situation instead of what we're seeing right now in catalonia which looks like a lose lose for everybody at this point go ahead matt. i think the problem with. with john about the legal position is that you only have a right to self-determination if you are an oppressed people and there's no other way out so from a technical legal point of view on they don't have a right to self-determination the problem is if i may say so there is an element of organized hypocrisy when we're talking about recognition of states in some cases

countries at all part of a very dictatorial regime and they have a referendum somaliland had a referendum as brothers if you will be much smaller than the rest of somalia's motor organized that was recognized and yet in other places they have referendums on independence that are not according to you know who wouldn't with the rules and that those countries are recognized so i think if anything is the only determining factor with a referendum is recognized is with the majority on the un security council all the thirty four cases that have been since the since one nine hundred ninety of countries held referendums fifteen have led to the establishment of new states in all those fifteen cases the common denominator is that those cases been supported by majority of france britain and the united states and the u.n. security council so when it comes to recognition that it's about politics it's very

interesting point matthew we did a program previously on the kurds and you know you know john's right it mattes right you know you can look at international law you can look at legitimacy can look at grievances but if you have a strong patron or patrons you'll get what you want to go ahead matt matthew and that has nothing to do with law. i think i think that's certainly true i think there's now there's a concern at the moment especially within catalonia for example that you know. from their point of view they're not only being mistreated by the spanish government but they're also being mistreated by the european union and even if they were successful in their quest for independence over recent days or also statements from the european union that they wouldn't be allowed back into the club as such they wouldn't be allowed back in the european union as a you e.u. member state in their own bright much in the way that scotland would not be conceivably allowed back into the e.u.

is a member state in its own right and in a way that that that interesting tension i think takes us into some of the broader debates about populism in the west and this particularly in the u.k. for example this very face the fence of the e.u. as a bastion of democracy respecting human rights and up holding public opinion when you look at some of the areas where that view has been strongest for example scotland pursuing independence but then to also be told by the european union well you're not going to be allowed back into the club for you to ever achieve that i think i think really. irritates only pendants movements. separately it's just simply spiteful is what it is it's not based on any kind of logic here you know john that you know this go back to catalonia i mean from what i know i been there but i've never lived there i mean it's not people that are oppressed it's their language is not all press that mean it's the richest part of

spain. if they were to withdraw from spain or something like the g.d.p. would contract twenty percent in the rest of spain if they were to get away from spain's debt i mean the debt level in spain would skyrocket is already really high i mean i guess i in principle i'm for self-determination but it has to be reason to log house. to be considered in legitimacy all of these are puzzles pieces to a puzzle right here so i mean again it looks like there are leads in catalonia that are our have different goals then the nice soft and fluffy we want to be free mantra go ahead joe. well the elites are divided in in catalonia it's like northern ireland is like many other regions there is an independence party or group of parties which has a tiny majority in the catalan parliament but the opposition is is loyalist and and so we cannot present this as i say as

a people straining for freedom from some foreign oppression the majority of catalans i repeat according to the opinion polls anyway and not in favor of independence i think one of the things that makes me. pessimistic because i fear that this might spin out of control is that spain in my view has encouraged far too much autonomy over recent decades it's in the spratly cutler is not the only autonomy there are plenty of other or autonomous regions in spain many of which have adopted their own regional dialects or languages including in education and that's definitely the case in catalonia and even in britain even in the united kingdom where of course we also have independence movements the local language thing has never caught on but it has in catalonia where education has been in catalan now for for ten or twenty years as far as i know and that of course is a very major change or at least opens the way to a very major change when you talk about contagion peter of course people are worried about other regions of europe there are plenty of possible candidates for

secession there but the danger i think is more immediate it's that nearly all sessions or at least a very large number of sessions produce counter secessions so for example in the treasure the former soviet union there are plenty of parts of former soviet republics that have hived off from the secessionist soviet republics when arland when the home rule campaign in ireland was successful northern ireland. hived off and so on and you know what i would like to know and i don't i'm sure other people know this is whether the independence movement in catalonia is geographically concentrated because if it is as i suspect then you will i'm sure find parts of catalonia itself not wishing to be part of the of this new secessionist entity and that's why i say you have to follow the rules and the ones you end up with and that's why you know i think that their vote should have been counted i mean recognize that that's a totally different issue but it would back up john laughlin's point about really what the sentiments are mad let me go back to you when one when where do we how does the spanish government recover from this save face and move forward because

again it's a public relations disaster for them go ahead. i think what they have to do is they have to recognize that the has to be a debate that has to be discussion ninety nine years ago there was the first president of czechoslovakia thomas small story to find democracy as discussion is democracy is debate and discussion and i think we have to go back to the idea that democracy is discussion it's negotiation it's a give and take process and it's not just a fifty one percent bullying the forty nine percent and it's not just referring to cool rulings i think at the end of the day it is a built on showing it's a philosophy of life that has to recognise other people as as having just one point of view and that's been very difficult because they have gone for the very sort of hard approach to government could save face and i was at the end of the day you

have to uphold the law except those things but it doesn't make it easy for you if you lose the battle of international public opinion or national public opinion and i think that's what they've done so i think the spanish government or the next spanish government probably not this one and it's a long time to wait and there is a concern the next spanish government will have to need. some sort of debates some sort of open mind as to how you can change the constitution and i think if you then accommodate some of those views and of course there's always a slippery slope and you do too much that joins in but i think if you if you don't try to give them some sweetness and try to to accommodate them they don't you know i mean let me difficult let me go to matthew give him a little bit of a let me go to matthew to give him the last word here i mean again it was brought up in this program i think was john laughlin i mean again the media perception is that you have this unified unitary state actually spain is all about compromise

it's been about compromises for a whole long time here and that's what that's the kind of already and not that they have to cut to keep their country together last word to you matthew in london. so there probably is more diversity of opinion within catalonia than some of the headlines have suggested much much like there is more diversity of opinion around the bronx at the by in the u.k. or around independence in scotland you know there is a diversity of opinion and you know that perhaps is why it's why we do need to have reliable votes that we can count that we can measure we can see where they're located but the fundamentals that they speak to are the ones that always cut through it is the picture with the image you know of the pensioner with blood face that will sway public opinion very decisively and the events of the last week i would suggest you know if you ever want to pull gasoline on the separatists this is exactly exactly you might go about all right gentlemen i have to jump in here we've had a fascinating discussion many thanks to my guests in london and in paris and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.

see you next time and remember crosstalk. in case you're new to the game this is how it works in the economy is built around . preparation washington washington media. the media. business to run this country business because. it's not business as usual it's business like it's never been done before.