and it is just like the real movie big news good actors bad actors and in the end you could never know your order. so that part can be proved all the world's a stage all the world's all the world's a stage and we are definitely a player. welcome to on contact today we discuss the power of nonviolent resistance with george lakey consistently acquiring the moral high ground and that the tracks support and. those who want to do a sin. with chris. it appears the political ferment is dormant in the united states this is incorrect the ideas that sustain the corporate state are swiftly losing their efficacy across the political spectrum the ideas that arise and take their place however are in the right has retreated into christian fascism and a celebration of the gun culture the left knocked off balance by decades of fear

state repression in the name of how the communism is struggling to rebuild and to find itself popular revulsion for the ruling elite however is nearly universal it is a question of which ideas will capture the public's imagination if a nonviolent popular movement is able to india logically disarm the bureaucrats civil servants and police to get them in essence to defect nonviolent revolution is possible but if the state can organize affective and prolonging violence against a send it spawns reactive violence or what the state calls terrorism violent revolutions usually give rise to revolutionaries as ruthless as their adversaries whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster friedrich nietzsche wrote r t correspondent on your part in power looks at why nonviolence was such an important tactic in the civil rights movement. well

civil unrest has always played an important role in the struggle for civil rights peaceful tactics are vital to the movement as well in one hundred forty two a man named james farmer began a sit in at the jack sprat coffee shop and mobile alabama in protest of unequal treatment of black customers who were made to wait and charge higher prices for their donuts and coffee farmer and his friend sat in the shop demanding to be served as local police told the owner there was nothing they could do and they actually one core or the congress of racial equality was formed these same peaceful tactics would help fuel the civil rights movement just a few years later in december one hundred fifty five dr martin luther king jr organized among the many bus boycott after rosa parks refused to give up her seat to a white man twelve months later the bus system was desegregated across the country from birmingham to washington to chicago can brought peaceful demonstrations to

demand an end to racist city policies and poverty while the people were peaceful they were often met with violence from the state and one of their efforts to transform politics in one hundred sixty four core and other organizations began the freedom summer a drive to register black voters in mississippi black and white volunteers from in and outside the state worked to increase black registration they registered twelve hundred voters and established fifty freedom schools to continue their cause but it didn't come without tragedy their peaceful campaign resulted in the arrest of one thousand sixty two volunteers the beatings of eighty freedom summer workers the bombing or burning of thirty seven churches and thirty black homes or businesses the murder of three civil rights workers and at least three local black supporters

of the civil rights movement as well all of this in ten weeks. decades later peaceful demonstrators still want a high risk of violent reaction from the community and state. thank you anya my guest today is george lakey a sociologist who focuses on nonviolent social change he is the eugene m. lange visiting professor or issues and social change america at swarthmore college is also held teaching post at haverford college in the university of pennsylvania lake he was a trainer during the civil rights movement for mississippi freedom summer and co-author of the manual for direct action strategy and tactics for civil rights and all other nonviolent protest movements one of the seminal tacks of the civil rights movement his latest book is viking economics how the scandinavians got it right and how we can too thank you so let's talk about social change and nonviolence and why nonviolence is

a more effective tactic for social change i bring good news actually from sweden and norway because in the context of my research for the book like in economics i had to look into the history or maybe i didn't have to buy a history so i wanted to and i was particularly interested in what did they do during their transition from the bad old days a century ago when it was lots of poverty lots of oppression only a pretend democracy you know with the one percent actually running the country and how did they move it from that point to the point today where the very high achieving a very remarkable degree of equality individual freedom that kind of thing and so i was very curious considering that the major changes happened in the twenty's and thirty's and that was when germany was also going through its decline into fascism and italy going into its decline in fascism what was different about norway and sweden so i found that first of all yes they did have active nazi movements in that

time so fast as them was a definite threat and they. they also were experiencing depression in fact norway's degree of depression was even worse than germany's sounds the worst in europe highest unemployment in europe and people were literally hungry really starving and so the pressure on. the kind of the pro fascists set up you know the depression brings was very present both in sweden and norway well the nazis did their what they did in germany and the festus in italy which was provocation provocation provocation bait bait the left and then the left will come and will have street fighting and want to be great because it is great it sets it strengthens the state because it puts more pressure on the state which is presided over by the one percent and to step in more and more forcefully right with the middle class all saying you know we care about order we don't want chaos is what

happened in germany that's what happened in germany it was a strengthening of the state that happened and in italy as well so. so that that's what the game plan was of the fast as in norway and sweden it didn't work and it didn't work because the left didn't play their game they were not they didn't allow themselves to be baited into going into paying attention to them doing street fighting doing that kind of thing instead they did what in the civil rights movement we would have called they kept their eye on the prize and they knew that the promise was to push away the economic elite. reduce it get rid of its dominance so they could set up a new economic system which is now called the nordic know how do they do that's what they did was they massive strikes mass boycotts massive demonstrations not only in the urban areas which is what you'd kind of expect but also in the in the rural areas because during the depression of course would be a lot of farmers who'd be who'd have their farms foreclosed on right because

farmers are pretty only playing with that and had no means of repaying the debt and farmers in that county would come and join them when the sheriff would come to do it sheriff sale and collectively none cooperate so strongly numb folly but very strongly in such a way that the sheriff couldn't carry out the auction and so for mishap in the thirty's in america it would have actions exactly exactly and it was so strongly effective in that in the thirty's as well as well as our large strikes were very effective in the thirty's so let's take that example ok and apply it to where we are today in an oligarchy stadium dust realisation evisceration of civil liberties and donald trump in the white house so we keep our eye on the prize that is to say we remember who is actually running things and we keep our focus on them we keep

both politically that's fun and also economically for example a group that i'm involved with loves to go after corporations we went after a bank for example seventh largest bank in the country but it was the number one financier of mountaintop removal coal mining and appalachia and we forced that bank out of the business of financing mountaintop now nonviolently disrupting disrupting disrupting we were in the bank branches all over the place we shut down to shareholders meetings we lead a boycott in which people took out their money from that bank and were putting in their local credit unions that kind of thing so there's more than one way. to go after the one percent i think these days a very smart way to do is to focus on the economic entities that are owned by the one percent who are responsible for the basically responsible for the oppression that we experience and if we keep our eye on the prize instead of getting elected into what might break considers a necessary self defense against this is the guy who wrote the anti fascist and

what. right he talks about defending against the. the white supremacist the ku klux klan and so on as a necessary priority for the movement not the only priority but a necessary priority and my experience is no no no we can make major strides even in a situation where the political apparatus is out to lunch even like the democratic party out to lunch or in the case are republicans like actively you know grinding us but we can make tremendous strides and start building that mass movement which as in norway and sweden was actually able to push the economic and well i don't think we're going to make any strides unless we build a massive open exactly exactly and so the question becomes does the tactic of using street violence hender or help the building of a mass movement well here's an example i brought along a newspaper fill a few inquirer showing collingswood new jersey now collingswood new jersey is

a mixed class middle class and working class suburb of philadelphia in the jersey quiet where people kind of mind their own business right right have to charlottesville virginia right after that that attack on. well describe the deck except to remind us that that one percent she lost her life in the in the automobile run in a bunch of people. over one hundred people showed up in this picture shows that it's. a different ages very significantly older people as well as younger people different colors of skin different occupational group. spontaneously came together to demonstrate about charlotte so now the important thing from a movement point of view about that is that these are people who would not have done that if they had perceived what happened in charlottesville in the way that trump wanted them to as

a kind of. violence versus violence you know deal they didn't perceive it that way they saw it as a nonviolent bunch of anti-racist being confronted by you know by the white supremacists and they and the nazis and they they turned out so that's an indication of the way to build a movement which is not to take them on in the way the suggest but instead in the way the civil rights movement. it worked i mean i was there i was involved the civil rights movement the ku klux klan was much stronger then than it is now in the deep south the ku klux klan virtually ran the south with the waves of the council and states like illinois exactly exactly and the sewer it's women kept the eye on the prize rather than keeping the eye on the k.k.k. and kept pushing pushing pushing campaign after campaign after campaign they stayed on the offensive and that's the that's the secret although at the end there was

a disintegration of the southern christian leadership with the rise of the black power movement and even a demonization i saw in those movement of marbles ok that's right and as soon as they lost that sense of going on the offense of choosing campaign after campaign and winning those campaigns that's when that's when what you describe happened they lost their momentum the important thing about what happened in norway and sweden was they kept their momentum the campaigns continued to grow grow in numbers grow in power until the economic elite was out of there we'll come back with. when we return we'll hear more from sociologist george lakey. people.

i mean always gives yeah when you go into a are you going to hurt you also deal you know mr wells with explosions. to go in another place or through that into the target do that than it will go. to go to the fourth floor your view of it is to believe also all fuse blows the glad i wish to god but not the number that i can relate to nobody can take a look. at all of my got up out of the local one down and then walk in the can the state of the impulse you know enter into not a book or stumble into the room the truth in the movies. music is always. going to whom he had a. few will become worth playing. chris

. welcome back to on contact let's continue our discussion with professor george lakey who focuses on nonviolent social change we were talking before the break about how the civil rights movement under martha king lost its momentum. i would put the question to you in the king always understood that institutional or economic racism was fundamental towards bringing justice and yet the first part of

the civil rights movement at least publicly was focused more on illegal immigration . the king of course was assassinated in memphis leading a poor people's march so for a king because we're always intimate lee tai but they were not intimately tied for many of his white liberal supporters exactly right i was very influenced by byard rustam who was the chief strategist for dr king and i heard byard say over and over and over if we don't get this economic justice thing then in fifty years we're still going to have rampant racism and he was right but he was and dr king and the other leadership that understood that were not able to convince a sufficient number of people to make it now the sixty three march that was for jobs and justice jobs and freedom so they were able to do it to some degree they kept moving in that direction involving white trade unions and so on in the process but it was very hard in

a situation of general prosperity where there were so many few who were basically contented with our economic system now this is post two thousand and eight we're in a very different situation we're still in austerity and there's not the degree of contempt that there was a trump is obviously capitalized on that fact that there's discontent and so i think that what dr king and byard in the others wanted to happen in the sixty's is now realizable with one fundamental and crucial difference is many people through the lyndon johnson's great society responding to the civil rights movement and the rebellions in detroit and newark watts. the state had the resources to through federal programs strong job creation i mean black radicals would even say buy off the movement those resources aren't there the country is de industrialize so the mechanism that the state has to ameliorate the suffering is not what

it was in the sixty's or what it was. in the one nine hundred thirty s. and roosevelt was quite frank with his follow all garlics that you know we have to create social programs or we'll have revolution roosevelt says that is greatest achievement is that he saved capitalism but that's not true now so how does that how is that going to play out. will i think the jury's still out about whether the wealth exists because actually we do still have a lot of wealth but it's in the hands of the one percent who in turn as compared to the sixty's have grabbed much more of it but it's a financial ised well where it's financial and then slow as well as different that's that's that's true and. and there are other priorities like climate the impact of ignoring climate change is going to mean more and more disasters we're just through it now with used and so on and we'll see more and more money being

drained off by that and again the one percent won't want to pay their fair share and so so but what that leaves i think is population which more and more is discontent and we see the big polarization going on polarization going always along with increased inequality so we can expect more polarization which is part of the temptation of the thief i think which is i'm more and more upset you know so where can i were delicious revolution is catharsis you know minutes exalts you you get a feel disempowered there's one hundred of you i've been around i spent my life around violence twenty years you know there's that really to instill fear in others to the kind of euphoria that comes with mass destruction in my case they were carrying automatic weapons but that's real and it and it's very poisonous it's real it's real so all the more important that more people i think who are of like mind in this year campaigns that are coming bad that is that our escalate tory but also

because that's what actually not only wins victories but also mobilize as more and more and more people we were able to go from in the case that i was referring to dealing with mountaintop removal money we went from the north they started in the living room. to thirteen states. because we were steadfastly and on the other hand we were targeting something that people really understood oh wow you're going after the bank that's financing this well you know i want to join that and we were using nonviolent tactics so that even though there were some people like we'd like a little more politeness please they didn't get it because what we were about was making is life so difficult for the bank that they would choose instead to to get out of the business and that kind of i'm not saying that's the only model there are the pipeline fights a very important proliferation blocking the road trucks blocking the roads are

perfect so many opportunities for us to do people's mobilization so there's really no need for us to shift our attention from going after the one percent to say oh well we were you know we're going to go after often working class guys you know who are on the other some of the extreme right you know will camels work brother to a dragon-fly i mean will campbell amazing figure icon of the civil rights movement little rock escorts the the children to school. and yet he becomes he's minister baptist minister. the chaplain to the clan but the ku klux klan and i love campbell and i'm rather to a dragonfly's one of my favorite books and in light of that i want you to talk a little bit about how do we deal with these racists neo nazis how do we how do we reach them out how do we cope with their presence for one thing we look at their their real genuine grievances and

address that for example how many people on the right if they're working from working families have family members who are not being served by our health care system. right i mean so many of the people in the far right are from a demographic which is actually losing life expectancy for the first time in u.s. history losing life expectancy the health care system in the us is it's a mess i mean obamacare is better than private previous but it really is a mess norway and sweden figured out how to do health care system the liver's quality care for everyone when i get to talk with folks who are leaning toward that end of the spectrum and i say you know what there are people just across the atlantic who have a really great health care system and take care of that agent of yours and that bubble and they are you kidding and i say yeah it's just a question of getting rid of our current system oh well they like that getting rid of the current system right people in the stream right or for getting results and

say oh i substituting what will work a whole lot better and they say well i'm for that so what we could do is address the genuine grievances instead of writing people off as if all as if obsession with racism is all that's going on there is of course racism i have races thought sometimes myself so i you know there's no such thing as growing up in america without some racists cocaine said whites are all whites or unconscious racists exactly and i am fortunate in that i've spent so much time and i graduated from a story about college and stuff so i've had a lot of opportunity to address that inside myself so i'm not all that propped up with the idea that i am you know say the same racist so what i'm interested in is appealing to people on the basis of what their real grievances are especially when i know that by addressing those grievances were that's the way to build this is where this is all that's what change there be others no prominent alliances only

prominent power there were also i have to credit ralph nader who said you know we should be walking into places like wal-mart in the rust belt where these people all voted for it say we are here to organize for fifteen dollars minimum wage jobs and once you do that. you can create unlikely alliance is. that will actually do far more to mitigate racism and chauvinism i don't you agree than take a baseball bat and charlottesville oh yeah absolutely absolutely because as mark brady acknowledges in his book fascism grows when the economy declines yeah right so let's address the real thing instead of dressing the symptom i see his his movement these describing as very much it is symptomatic relief and they won't get symptomatic relief when there's something way more basic going on it's like trying

to address a cancer patient by saying you know here's additional aspirin it's we've got to get more fundamentalist talk about moral capital ok because nonviolence and this was something that came repeated over and over and over was the way by which you retain moral integrity and moral capital and exposed the moral bankruptcy of the oppressor that's exactly right so consistently acquiring the moral high ground and that tracks support and it d. fangs those who want to do a sin i mean it's not like the one percent was fond of the civil rights. had to be dragged kicking and screaming into making the concessions that the did right but it could be dragged kicking and screaming into making concessions because of the moral high ground that was occupied by the civil well i think we should also be clear the king frightened them cain went to cities like memphis and fifty thousand people went with it when cain got up in riverside church in one thousand sixty seven to

denounce the vietnam war johnson was apoplectic pang at a tremendous political power one could even argue that before he was assassinated in sixty eight he may have been the most powerful political figure in the con. and the elites were terrified of him terrified of them j. edgar hoover even the who was quoted as saying he's the most dangerous young america yeah that's right and i think that comes from his brilliance and his discipline and one of the things about organizing which you've spoken about as opposed to waiting into a group of neo nazis and throwing bricks of them is that it's difficult it's painstaking it takes time you know the oscar wilde quote socialism is great but it takes up too many evenings. it's hard to hard work and it's also requires a certain self-effacement and anonymity and that's true on the other hand there's

a reward an emotional psychological spiritual reward award reward that people don't always keep in mind of that hard work and that is that going for what you want instead of opposing what you don't want. is it self fulfilling you know like we've found for example in our group we keep attracting lots of twenty somethings because they've been through college most of them and heard lots of anti this anti that are you anti-racist about this week. is that right and then they thought oh my gosh this group of earthquake or action team is actually for a thing and they're pushing for it well that was the power of the civil rights when i was the power of king with us and make some you know arguably the greatest figure in american history exactly it was a civil rights it was also called the freedom movement right there is also called the black liberation movement that's right oh my gosh you know this is all about positivity yeah that was sociologist george lakey. a sustained

nationwide popular uprising of nonviolent obstruction and noncooperation is the only weapon left to save the republic elites will respond once they become afraid if we do not make them afraid we will fail and the most potent weapon in the hands of nonviolent rebels is fraternizing with an educating civil servants as well as the police and soldiers who even though they suffer from the same economic inequality usually are under orders to crush protests this demands a counter-intuitive response from anticapitalist protestors they must show respect and even compassion to forces deployed to stop the rebellion including the police demonstrators are required to exercise tremendous self-discipline as they endure acts of violence and repression they must refuse to retaliate if bonds of sympathy

are established between protesters and parts of the ruling apparatus the ruling elites are unsure whether they can trust the security apparatus to obey this in genders paralysis within the centers of power and once paralysis creeps into the ruling apparatus the overthrow of the corporate state becomes possible. thank you for watching you can find us on our t. dot com slash on contact till next week. in case you're new to the game this is how it works not the economy is.