reception in the rest of the western european concern is to changes in russia then it's going to relate to the subjects i think it was for a very long time russia over time i mean. very primitive in what was the differentiation was not really seen i think maybe the press action of the changes even the big go a bit of it didn't go into the right direction and afterwards i think. for a lot of people it was not really of it was a tremendous change in the russia happening for sure you needed time to consume it it's not happening from one day to the other and i think everybody has to learn out of the own history now and if it is coming begged to to create the confrontation then the old images are coming up but i think at that point of time nobody really either on the e.u. side nor in russia side realize that it was actually approaching that very critical

confrontational moment and i want to ask you about the second part of these manichean image of the bright and shiny european union why did that image come from because the european union as successful as it was it was also having its own struggles do you think the clash over ukraine had anything to do with is own internal doubts i don't think so i think if as it'll have to say quite straight the knowledge about to a crane within the european union is very limited i think they have no the only a little it's those one of see throughout the ages of the austrians who we have a little bit more know ledge i think a lot of our students on the way get sometimes i'll say. crane. this is nothing else that they're part of and i should by history looking into the properties and the pier for two thousand and seven sound i think this is not really understood. and so for this one of the difficulties i agree with you on that

particular point but i think when russians say that russian president often says that he he personally believes that russians and ukrainians came from the same sort of athlete fall from the same cultural pool. it's never being argued that ukraine is no different from russia it is never been argued that ukraine does not have the right to sovereignty does not have the right to solve determination don't you think that perhaps russians too could have a guess. articulated. ideas a little bit better because i could understand how fans of could that be to the ukrainians. for sure it is a learning process i think the ukrainians have to learn all they self so there's one of the difficulties i remember by first the easy deal for a kind of independent craney i met my visa reserve vice president of the ukrainian

government he was speaking to we the national language and at a certain moment to when we started the vehicle talks now is to switch to the ukrainian language for me it was not the difference chris and i thought no russian or no they were creaming language so for i think this is mirroring the difficulties they have with themselves and their perception and also me as a that is one of the critiques i'm doing to the russians. i think. the old situations are coming back and the stand pulte and them understand that ayesha is they are not in favor of that nato is coming to the direct into the board of russia he i'm fully sharing give this opinion that it was a mistake to do so. but on the other side i think. they came back the old impression of confrontation. that's

a mistake of the west and so to you specially by the americans but the lives of some best than europeans i have to say precisely western europeans. are also on the other side but come on it's not only the western europeans the poles for example played also quiet there and active and i find this is history i think the confrontation the poet in the shows i lugged last thing with him and i think it's also the question of cause or mation what has happened by the end of the second world war because proved was moved two hundred kilometers west towards losing the z's the bones are getting from germany a dutch as i hear what they're going to say parts of their country into this still not yet concealed so everybody is essentially acting on that old historical and sometimes mystical agrement says because it's primitive i think you you have no to making any distinctions if you have nothing to consider i think you're using the old follows and build

a business and let's it now let's put history aside and let's try to move to look for it i've heard you say that what russia is currently interested in ukraine is for amounting some sort of a frozen conflict and i would not actually dispute that because if you consider all possible alternatives frozen conflict may not be desirable but it may actually be a lesser evil at least from the russian point of view because as you said russia indeed does not want to see nader in your crane now can i ask you the europeans specifically the e.u. position what exactly the e.u. now wants to see in ukraine and i'm not asking you about best wishes in the most practical terms given the underlying causes of this conflict what is the bast possible scenario that the e.u. should be working toward i think i repeat there is no real strategy of the european union to crane there's a lot of different opinions within the european. nunu by the member states for sure

which is quite ok if that is happening and i think sometimes of the reactions are really too primitive. on the stand i'm not happy about the stand these frozen conflicts that that you have put in because it's giving possibility to influence a situation whenever you want to get open the conflict think and close for comfort no i don't think it's about opening and closing the conflict but simply not lobbing . in a strategic sounds consume ukraine but what i'm more interested in the ghana is the . is the european factor because every year remember people when they took to the streets they were chanting ukraine is europe and what they meant by that is the european union do they have any chance of realizing that european dream at this point i think you have to understand that for a very long time and that i think even it's still not existing there is i think

you're standing europe is european union which is not right because no told europe is european union for sure that it's quite clear but that these impression and i think you should go also understand the l to an o.t. if of the countries coming out of the soviet empire. but they don't break out the curtain i think their perspective was european union i think we want to go immediately to the european union and i can tell you for sure that this was exactly what the ukrainians had on their mind on the european culture you know that european music by the european union the european standards of living european or situations and so on and so forth and at that time i think the letter ship of the european commission was encouraging. that sentiment how did you marry not getting a promise that the crane might become a member of the european union i think you that person never promised was it because i think many ukrainians took at exactly like that that was never promised

as no decision within the european union of the two crain might become a member of the european union i think this is misunderstood sometimes misused also by the understanding of the russian side i think he has no decision about them it is always a phrase used neighborhood policy we need the european union neighborhood to polish it but there was a is that really fair because you know that they noted to make that civilizational choice as the ukrainian politicians like to call it they had to severe many of their economic ties with russia. many of the industrial ties were caught the ukraine is now risking losing income from the gas transit so ukraine has made a lot of sacrifices for what is it cut its ties with russia it's surely hope that it would be embraced by the west more fully not just encouraged but fully embraced and support it it is a ride to the ukrainians wanted their best specter from the european union but this

is not going from monday to the other i think it's always mr the sealed you can become visit once for each member there's a european union you have to fulfill the quotations and then the end and there are a lot of consequences you have already mentioned here that need some time you may arrive to these critiques of the representatives of the european union then of the rightly outspoken of his subject i think they've never contradicted the two of these hopes but they have never been living any decision opening exists possibility personally i'm cold winds to might be right after twenty or thirty years i think you'll be some time to consume the results of history is good and they had to and i think you can appeal a become a new europe with the end winds which should be a short time i think he did some time. proposing on the austin side several times to those ukrainians they might be clearly

a threat or that the because we are students we have a good experience also towards the soviet union the previous time and here that the oak remains we are not really understanding the state that she declared to be a trial at the well that's implicit let me stop you right here we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. because i live here good for yourself then. leave no. need.

we have other things in this world this is you know. why some peoples also take our things all the power just for themselves only. one hundred years ago russia was consumed by revolution and unprecedented violence is not an understatement to say the russian revolution or. was a defining moment of the twentieth century how did it change russia.

it will be all. the. solutions all the people who.

welcome back while to part with dr at hardball sic former vice chancellor of austria dr buss and just before the break here you mentioned the astros neutral status and there was a time when ukraine also enjoyed that status and was quite content with it unfortunately that's no longer the case according to polls the majority of ukrainians strongly favor joining of major and that may be russia's fault that may have been provoked by russia's own policy but. the thing is it seems that nato is not ready or willing to reciprocate not only because of the fears of provoking russia but the frankly because a few koreans on internal security. economic risks what kind of

a relationship do you think the west can now realistically offer to your crane as far as integration or security matters go they gave a repeating what they said to there's no real story at the g. concerning your green with them so you know you're saying they're not adjusted that just the abstract discussion about the valleys but nothing in concrete nothing in complete i think there was never been a real decision worked all folk rave but what is really bored paul to be of always to look there is a product of members of the european union say we can know the office that you do so you agree means because in russia doesn't want it that british are very important they're all for us who have very cautious of this subject but i'm not sure that there was a really precise discussion with the russians how to manage the problem totally agree with you moreover i thing the russians really feel the need now to put their rest their kong up with that conflict with ukraine to rest and. hopefully. have

europe or the european union take some responsibility for what transpired in that country because your crane is in a difficult financial position now it it needs some sources of income and it's not quite. obvious how it can solve situated for the loss income from the c.v. or the can all make ties with russia do you think the association agreement that was again the sort of the beginning point for this kind of their focus do you think it provides enough for for ukraine to carry on i think association agreement is not enough i think that also business or changes within ukraine. i think concerning the whole economy is the legislation and so on and so on the lot of. those with proposals by the european and world to change the real problem internally in the ukrainian is that this issue and the. king of the subject of

a lot of differences not only between west indies to be here in this context also he reached this thread to cheat can be really done i think it's a question of political management. green has to learn to be independent because we have been for a very long time those are some of them but isn't that a little bit cruel i'm in ukraine was it had there's some sort of a symbiotic relationship with russia that relationship was caught very dramatically on the pretext that you know ukraine should aspire to broader western values and now people in the west are telling your crane come on you are on your own we support you but you're really on your own despite the fact that it has a very difficult situation not only with russia but also with other neighbors because it doesn't want to be part of the customs union of its complicates its trade with other countries of the former soviet union is that's really fear is that a fair position my idea that this is

a program of such tremendous changes i think to leave the soviet empire from one day to the other. does that mean that the united will to handle you the things on your home the way i think here you would need steps and the experiences even if you see the real me if occasion of those germany's has still consequences and difficulties internally we've not yet done and even consider you're going to see even more important because here the cuts. even more important also concerning those who say if we go and it's easy to asian but not only on this i think you can see crimea ok now taken by the russians through this also a program for the russians since it costs a lot of money all it costs a lot of money by that i think that i know that you believe that crimea is not a finish this year and i actually believe at the agree with you on that i think there will come a time when russia will make an accommodation to ukraine on the issue of crimea not

necessarily changing the borders but i'm pretty sure that russia will. at some point of time make sure that ukrainian still very welcome in crimea this is the only way for russia to patch its difficulties busier really right now you mentioned the energy issue and this is very interesting because three years ago we heard that about the unified western position on your credit but now it's not even clear what the west really means take for example the second no stream pipeline we have the americans who are strongly against it to be have the germans and the austrians cost for it. do they even have the ukrainian interest any one of them do they have the ukrainian interest in mind because there seems to be. that each country is pursuing their own kind of you to friend the friends the austrians or what we did to you is to those obtained his concern exam pipelines that we are able to send in achieve your visions or look as he would back to karim here we did it but we are playing

a minor role of this thing the whole situation is a loser members changes and for sure the real background is i think we need a certain way of regulation in the relations between russia on the one side and the european union of the other side i think the energy program you have to see in the global context even. and i think that not enough talks on both sides insist that but when you specifically consider the issue of gas transit on the one hand ukraine needs much need needs that kind of income from gas transit on the other hand you don't want to. be worrying about the supply of gas every winter could you seeing and how do you think that decision should be made of whether or not the project should be given a green light if you put your crane at the center of all of this i think it will be done only by the ukrainian think would be the general enjoyment of the riches who

obviously extremely difficult because although you are into. meme's looking for example to the minsk agreement doesn't have to be a liberal career because it's not really fulfilled the old completions this is a very good example because i think it's even merchant that the energy question because here we need peace to such a number of wake him still existing i think here we need another behavior concerning negotiations and refilled. and i think the talks should be about mo open and straight to the subject while i merican seem to be playing a very accept role and there seems to be some progress as far as mr. they the american representative on your crane is concerned he's proposing he's trying to. deal on the un peacekeeping force and i think russia would generally be in favor of bad but the problem is is again what that the ukrainian side will be.

able to call parade because politically its options are very limited for vill some publications internally and i think he is to say on the side of the european union we have to have more talks with the ukrainian concerning foreign film and also different positions with the new korinos are subject to good no let's have both the best the no korinos formica ratio where they say here the positions are quite different as to the east and sometimes see these are more not the principal position but that some point the support of patients might the lose. the respect because they have promised scenes which are not very realistic and so on and so there's too much politics in the bad today on this is free now i think it's indisputable that what's your crime ians wanted during the might i'm proudest of was the change of from ation the change of economic and governing model and i think

it would be fair to say that so far they only got a change of leadership as they the governing model has not yet fully being transformed by the. i know there are lots of people in russia who with eagerly blame for that but if we are really fair it is a major problem for all pos communist societies it's extremely difficult to. grow your institutions i know that you have a special expertise in that area do we understand at this point of time what it takes to move from post authoritarian post communist societies into a stronger democratic ones it is a learning process and you lead the efforts i think that you are willing to learn. in tears or difficulty by acting politicians but politically that the just and so on and so on because a lot of countries are using the difficulties for their own purposes internally and so on and sob i think some parties are really living out of the use and the raising

some pressure and i think if when they bring come through as you say oh it's not just give us a bad kid they come to grind for and hungary it's not helpful i think so for i think we have to put. the questions and the real lead to be concerted to move for shrewd tremendous changes with the new cry necessary to development to block or to see but i want to be fair the needs a lot of time and experience of that needs a lot of training so very much looking always to education there are some other examples in eastern europe many in the western europe of how what concerned about i mean how angry i mean poland those countries are sometimes accused of being increasingly authoritarian do you see that in the same lie that they're sort of going back in history of returning to that most authoritarian instincts or is it just a normal learning curve sometimes you go for it sometimes there are lapses is that

part of growing that democratic muscle or is that already something to be a war about i think you want to be but quite outspoken of his judgment the riches have been a million hungary the poland and so on it is a pua noms. yes i think it's mixed up with history. in one point victor lebanese totally riot i think communism in hungary was not really. changed there was no learning curve on sis but we got out of this is this which from community extended to two more chrissy immediately i think even if those who were not as the new government which was an old communist government then i'm going to put down the budget books and the program was finished it's not yet finished i think you need some time to consume and to get step by step other well he certainly cannot change societies by political declarations and i think there are lots of studies these days about values in many pos communist societies and you see

a very significant change on many social issues like the algae bt migration abortion and many similar issues there is a divide between in western europe and eastern europe and up until recently i think the position of the western europe has been that you guys have to play by you know you have to be like us you have to accept our values. that's pretty much it don't you think that's what we are seeing in poland in hungary maybe even in russia is a sort of a pushback against these kind of. morally and moralistic supremacy you know you are totally right i think a sister is a j. which was done you have to change her monday to the others are pure nonsense they need some time of you need a specific kind of dialogue i would even say empathy to have an understanding which is partly missing i'm very keen on the subject for a better long time and i'm preaching it in my own country those who are in western

european countries that we need another perception of consuming history and consequences out of this for sure it is a lot. process which may be making it difficult is that sometimes without any doubt but i think there's also a necessary patience i missing for example even by my own country or by the government of my country a certain kind of dialogue i think we had better times after the downfall of the neighboring countries as we have now a days because i think we had to leave so that we know everything wrong. i think this is wrong i think you have to understand why the doing so and to stop the discussion those are subject. might be some mistakes. too and saw. a great pleasure talking to you thank you very much for your time and our viewers

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