hello and welcome to crossfire for all things considered i'm peter lavelle one hundred years ago russia was consumed by revolution and unprecedented violence it is not an understatement to say the russian revolution or bolster big coup d'etat was the defining moment of the twentieth century how did it change russia and the world. crosstalk in the russian revolution i'm joined by my guest here in moscow geoffrey robertson is a professor of history at university college cork and a member of the royal irish academy we also have marc sloboda he's an international affairs and security analyst and of course we have bob and she's

a political analyst with sputnik international all right gentlemen as always crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it. geoffrey robertson we go to you first here one hundred years on i will the most obvious question was it worth it was it worth it yes i think it was one because what the revolution showed was that it was possible to. get nine hundred seventy eight was that the people into the history fundamentally changed to kosovo history but there are those that say that it was a coup d'etat that the bolsheviks didn't represent the people that represented a very very. well here ideology. and there was a popular revolution the bolsheviks came to power. on a wave of revolution is what for russia that won a revolutionary movement over it both civic revolutionary mood. revolutionary moved . the majority when they seize power but they were very strong minority and they

actually had a majority already have majority in in the in the open air was the point it's not the it wasn't just the. insurrection and russia there was a revolution and the bolsheviks were the beneficiary of it and the part this revolution rocks but it was to the north to just bring to power a particular group of people it was all real much in the future trying to completely but that but the people paid a very high price for that view of the world mark i can see your position quite clear you know there are no same questions are very very nuanced so i don't not consider myself a communist maybe a post my wife is a card that had to learn and it's. not a postmarks as opposed to the internets. i want to speak perhaps as. the international relations level what the soviet union meant to the world it meant the end of western colonialism and imperialism without the soviet union the

ability of the third world to achieve independence certainly within the time frame it did it simply wouldn't have been work you could make the same argument to the end of the first world war saw the end of the western empires the russian the end. the seeds of it eventually decades later we just had the collapse of the russian empire one cannot say that that was necessarily part of the same process that when they were in the eighty's nelson mandela who was supported by the soviet union and himself was a communist of sorts was still opposed by western governments the united states the united kingdom up until he succeeded and then suddenly he's become you know the hero rather that's the whole point that's the whole point it's not just about the soviet union it's about ideology and that is the biggest outcome of that political

transformation you can use revolution you can use who data whatever you choose but the fact of the matter is the rest of the century or almost the rest of the century was defined by the the ideology that eventually took power in russia there is absolutely no doubt russian revolution played a role in the major role that went the centuries history and most of that the influence of all supported maybe not on russia itself but on the wall and in general definitely positive but what i think is important and what i think is not discussed in russia and in the west we see so traits of this revolution the war was very revealing themselves very clearly in the west right now what destruction of monuments more polarization. of science and the media controlling speech control in speech. the man you know finding spice not only for inspires but people who don't fit

a certain ideology at home so these are scary things if you ask me about the most negative aspects of the russian revolution i can refer you to the more than west to the united states and the e.u. and you will see a lot of them talking about their revolution as a whole you know i think we can agree on something i will suggest to an image you know the russian revolution was like an adequate in the dark room that three fourths of us three wise men try to touch you know if been blind to describe one of them touch the leg and said all with different eyes like a cord on the one touch the trunk and said it is more flexible the third one touched the tail and said it's like a rope so if you ask me about the russian revolution was it a tragedy for russia with millions of people dead that dramatic fall in living standards for the majority of the huge majority of the population i will say yes in the in the living standards were pretty low absolutely absolutely then you ask me it was it a popular uprising with people basically supporting the bolsheviks during that

civil war orbiting for their own government and not. a position with the west yes was it the van that positively influence the western countries that that kind of encourages them to introduce their social safety net books yet workers' rights by women's rights isn't a literacy for it's like an elephant where you have positive things and negative lines but the negative ones are no evident in the you know. what i was trained as a historian one always has the in a way for this they weave the sense of historical inevitability but why did the poles to big swim meet there were more than one revolution that year ok there were different trends there were overlapping simultaneously why did they win was it just by let's. not to look for greatness firstly to have popular support secondly because of lead in letting the leadership and certainly because the revolutionary events took place in the context of the first world war i'm talking about the

baltics and one nine hundred seventy they were the antiwar party they would have peace party that was enormously important to the pope to popularity they often have to remember about the course is that when they seize power in russia they don't see themselves as just being involved in a rushed revolution they see their actions the broader world revolution they see the russian revolution see leading to a global revolution. from the bullshit point of view. the whole future of humanity was extatic in their actions in russia so mark what role because you're all saying this is very idealistic it was very painful it was very very costly but we ended up with. just a chair that was to civil war and the foreign intervention that followed that's what went wrong that's why and when that's the context in which the revolution begins to degenerate in which bolshevism which was a kind of popular revolutionary movement begins to take all these kind of bureaucratic forward terran repressive features which becoming bedded in the soviet

union so extended it became imbedded that is this is a civil war it's a very important road to supply foreign intervention by western capitalist states trying to strangle i want to sort it out and to the causes of the bolshevik success just a little bit i agree completely with what jeffrey said especially the. anti-war party aspect the bolsheviks when he ran skiing the provisional government sea of power after the february right and that preceded the bolshevik revolution they wanted to continue the war this war that many russians russia had already suffered some six million casualties at that point the country was suffering from famine they were exhausted they couldn't understand why they were fighting what they saw as an imperialist war between a paralysed european powers they wanted out another thing the bolsheviks were. doubly disciplined as a party they understood power they knew how to take control of railroad stations telegraph stations they understood the nodes of power in communication to make

society work and how to end their foes they were. opposed to each other as well and they had to send a sense of unity to the third thing i would say is they had the support of the military and this was crucial particularly the navy. defections from the military at this point where thirty four thousand a month and they were flocking to the bolsheviks because the bolsheviks were promising the end of the war and they supported the bolsheviks all through the february revolution up until the culmination with the october revolution and without that crucial military support i'm not talking officers i'm talking the rank and file soldiers particularly in the navy the kronstadt sailors the aurora and so on they were crucial to to being able to take power on the streets and whole government building. is the ideology is violence and bedded in the ideology

or is just a political tool to make. to maintain power because he you know i think there conflicting trends are there this is an idealistic movement a lot of things that you know that we heard in the one thousand century in the socialist labor movement here but once it comes to pass when you come to power you don't want to let it go and you have to you know for the good of the people or the good of the party or the good of the ideology and i think that's also a group of civil war but once once they had a foothold they would do anything it took to keep it well i would say the violence is akin to all ready to go i go with just including now liberalism there really was a dream i greatly agreed and the mechanism of repression is very simple with radical ideologies we're. right on the food stamp. what's happened is for the whole world and who is preventing us from claiming that just two million people in donbass smash that you know these ever lived in syria acoustic toss and

kill them this is their attitude that all of the west and that was the attitude of the bolsheviks might not from the very beginning you know i think it's a very important question why the bolsheviks came to power two reasons first the fabric evolution you know now in russia we don't separate these two things where you don't think about one revolution not about the fabric top and we're going to come right we're going to talk about that i think it's right because without february there will be no work call but what's happened in february was that a bunch of liberal revolutionaries came to power and revealed themselves absolutely i'm fit to govern we have very similar people now oppose input and they were very good at propaganda western supported propaganda against that sort of happiness yet ninety percent of the russian population in fabry one hundred seventeen were convinced that transporting slept with the empress that he was a german agent that she was a traitor all this normal. thing for you the big i mean there's a privilege and a good point manfredo you have said i was much more important because if you talk

about the economic situation the economic situation in fabric one hundred seventeen balls not to many people the region people who are eating or have expected to go to your inner circle after our break we'll continue our discussion of the russian revolution staying with our. like the many clubs over the years so i know the game and so i got. the ball isn't only about what happens on the pitch. the final school it's about the passion from the fans it's the age of the superman each of killian erroneous and spending children twenty million and one ply a. book it's an experience like nothing else not to because i want to share what i

think of what i know about the beautiful guy a great so one more chance with. the base this minute. i fear that we may see the iranians taking the first steps towards restarting the new for program which will only further ratchet up tensions and further increase the risk of one that's the big danger here this is not just about killing the deal this is automatically putting the united states on a course of the. dance

you don't consume don't eat them doesn't do it on their own the first thing on the person in that are equal going into something into what he calls a stance make that connection don't consume don't we don't see only i'm doing. this on this is the downside of us at all to the sitting on. the. welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peterbilt to remind you we're discussing the russian revolution one hundred years on.

ok david go ahead and finish up your but look at some of the first reason why bush was the in the b.b.q. over liberals who got him off to bring one hundred seventeen and the second reason was that when the civil war really broke out. more store that saudis generals russian pederasts the took the side of the rats this is something that is not often mentioned but there was this one of the protection of the state the people because it certainly could not be an ideology i think i can give you a very good personal example. the famous general who defeated the austrians in the first world war when the army officers asked him i think see him on it would show we do you know there is a civil war going on he said going to come and go all russia states serve the government that we have the reds because they are otherwise without witness from abroad they are not able to go and they want to return when forced to eat ultimately. nature of death you know that twenty years in one thousand twenty six i

haven't written a book which was written by a patriot and a morning cast but in which he praised. ok well i don't want to going to ask it ok jeffrey i want to ask you something you know because i think as with something whatever your series i live here and you know this is the hundredth anniversary. not much excitement i don't hear a lot of conversation certainly academics and pundits and commentators but on the whole it's not a big deal there's a lot of ambivalence but i think there's probably more discussion going on in iraq . about the revolution that than you might imagine. russian public opinion is divided about the revolutions that you know there's some people who after population picks it was on the whole no bad thing fifty six percent ok and the other half or whatever it's forty four percent very hard thought it was nowhere to

go i mean i wouldn't describe very difficult i don't know you as a russian how do you feel about it because i just look you have serving study that i have to say have extreme in the villains too and i think that's the word the problem is that the universe sorry it unleashed a lot of more passions in the west than in russia as i noted in this way that's what i know it in. actions are completely misguided as you compared to the tsar and said that he doesn't want to celebrate this because he is afraid of sharing the faith of. this is to. use more faith. is that right now the west reminds me of the times of the third international the idea that we can't have that it's only in the united states and the you would have to spread it all with a wall or we would be smashed that's a completely bolshevist idea right the destruction of moral immense. looking at history of these viewpoint and saying that these guy was a slave it was a racist it's the same thing well bullshit one thing we're going to. go into any

city and town in this country you're still probably going to find a statue of lenin they're still there you know more that's nice what. history we already heard that was the civil war was the imbedded in the ideology of a totalitarian strain that culminated in stone because the great argument is we've already heard about. it in the could have been different variants different paths i'm not convinced of that i think it's a very totalitarian ideology. i'm not a big fan of the word totalitarian i think that itself is the ideology that was there was created in the west in the wake of the world war two to try to equate fascism and communism which i believe is a false equation i think the iranians. i think. we have to remember that the soviet union was was born not only in internal struggle but it

was from the moment of its creation it was attacked by drama can't understate it wasn't this is left out of a lot of western history books that in one thousand nine hundred eighteen the western powers and japan. most european countries the united states they invaded the nost and soviet union in the middle of the civil war to try to strangle the lead in the cradle integrated and i mean we're talking if one little incident you know just in the past few years been recognized by the british press the guardian and others churchill was a military commander of the british expeditionary force he used chemical weapons on russian pounds and that attack from outside helped solidify the support of the russian people with the threats with the reds the bolsheviks and help there was a siege mentality there was a paranoia that there in the soviet union but with good reason but perhaps like

a question we posed a recent challenge you know the party china. there were purges they were heard you know people. do you know that the wisdom of nine hundred seventeen is not the same as the post them printed said because of the civil war and because of the the seeds of the sea this is the historical argument you know is it still for terror and is someone totalitarianism opposed to is an inherent in its ideology its will conservation its its personalities or as a result of peace or cold circumstances. my view is that it's shaped by that the circumstances become but you have a question about about some power even for the he was never just. for their own sake it was about some power in the pursuit of utopia and it's really important to understand you know the radical utopian of the post revolution of the soviet approach and in retrospect would you say that was a dangerous goal to have utopia so i think that that that that's one of.

the negative is what lessons are i quote unquote you know your idealism is not practical politics revolutions do develop it you did to their children you know so you have to be careful what what. you wish well but that's not to say. it is themselves you know the idea that it was anything inherently wrong with it one interesting things about western coverage of the of the entrepreneur story the predominant theme is he's actually ok year that we're all these negative consequences arising from the russian revolution. but actually the ideas of the revolution yes despite the revolution remind relevant study particularly relevant to you know so-called neo liberal capitalism is experiencing such a crisis and there is a need to try and you know i magine alternative so much in different futures to you know to to do some different things and you know the russian revolution the you know the soul the experience as

a whole as let's put it both neck and that probably explains why russians are very very adverse to revolutions in real magic political change what it was like about numbers of people today in today in russia fifty six percent of people regret the passing of the soviet union but only twelve percent would like to see it restored i think as it wants. in eastern europe and central eastern europe a part. a recent poll by the european bank of reconstruction and development says that over half some fifty four percent of people would like to see the return of a command economy we've seen repeated calls and romania and hungary to say their lives were better off under the soviet system in the united states millennialists millennia a majority of them some fifty one percent would prefer to leave any socialist or communist country when as this is you go and of the total u.s. population thirty four percent would live rather live you know where he would remind me of when i was a graduate school of berkeley and i was going back and forth between communist

poland in berkeley and i read told people in poland that there are more communists in berkeley than the fall of poland here. i mean they should they should have if we could send them back and let them live in albania and united cities ok they don't know what they're talking about well i think that they're you watching was violence like and was violence like innate in and i thought well i want to say that any utopia and you're great if you. can spawn while look at pol pot i don't know is that you talking you know the only poor poor they have something like like encouraging feminism in afghanistan that's an explosion which has been realized or the right to realize it for twenty years. a deal could be change in ukraine making it and emailed russia destroying all of the communist party in ukraine that's what i'm hearing saying you're. having absolutes and extremism you need violence to make it absolutely get them in a way in

a way you know any change any dress we can agree that the russian revolution took the west in the past more than it took the soviet russia so the west avoided the alcohol and mistakes but there are a few things. the russians fluent and we have a lot like you nice these are all ninety years from the beginning for example let me give you an example the idea that a right could be made better was by his origin you know in the soviet union right doesn't are divided into proletarian ones and bush wants so now when russians hear about. the right thing even have a very skeptical i get it and we see be a good writer who opens to be a woman to be a good writer who happens to be believe god made the world could learn something from. the environment so there are certain. immunization that we got from these

three women and one of them is that without any kind of record you know rapidly running out of time you know from one of the things i think is very interesting is during the cold war we had this captive nations concept in the west you know a lot of people don't understand how much the russians suffered during the revolution during the civil war during the second world war and you know in when one could make the argument that the entire breadth of the soviet union its culture it was culture was attacked and it was it was. destroyed destroyed in many ways i mean i'm thinking of the orthodox church ok lot of people don't understand how much russian survived because of the pursuit of utopia in an ideology with the. culture was destroyed but. an alternative was put in place yes i mean there was we're still here ok it was a return it was a reconstruction of culture of culture. which wasn't wasn't completely part of me which actually persists. and i i think personally i don't believe in utopias and i

don't think that communism is the answer to day to the problems today but i personally don't want to live in a world where we stop fighting to create a better world that's a really good point and i want to just a quote here you perhaps you'll recognize real quick. people no longer obsess over the accumulation with things we've eliminated hunger want the need for possessions we've grown out of our infancy that's the favorite famous communist explorer and commander john carr of the starship enterprise. we need star fleet in for a flag here gentlemen were brought out of time absolutely fascinating discussion i watched the extended version of our piece you tube channel many thanks to our guests here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time remember.

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