if you say the russian revolution or bolster big coup d'etat was the defining moment of the twentieth century how did it change russia and the world. crosstalk in the russian revolution i'm joined by my guest here in moscow geoffrey robertson is a professor of history at university college cork and a member of the royal irish academy we also have marc sloboda he's an international affairs and security analyst and of course we have bob and she's a political analyst with sputnik international all right gentlemen as always crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it. geoffrey robertson we go to you first here one hundred years on. the most obvious question was it worth it was it worth it yes i think it will. because what the revolution showed was that it was possible to change the world com we wanted nine hundred seventy eight was that the people into being in history

fundamentally changed the course of world history but there are those that say that it was a coup d'etat that the bolsheviks didn't represent the people that represented even to bury. your ideology. and it was a popular revolution the bolsheviks came to power. on a wave of revolution is what for russia a revolutionary movement or a bolshevik revolution what were the revolutionary. majority when they seize power but they were very strong minority and they actually had a majority or in the a majority in the in the urban areas so the point is that the it wasn't just the. insurrection and russia there was a revolution and the bolsheviks were the beneficiary of it and the part this revolution rocks but it was to you know not to just to bring to power a particular group of people it was all in a rematch in the future you know trying to find a completely separate but the people paid a very high price. for that view with the world mark i can see your position quite

clear you know i don't know same question very very very nuanced so i don't not consider myself a communist maybe a post my wife was a communist. and that's. not a postmarks as opposed to an honest. i want to speak perhaps is. the international relations level what the soviet union meant to the world it meant the end of western colonialism and imperialism without the soviet union the ability of the third world to achieve independence certainly within the time frame it did it simply wouldn't have been work you could make the same argument to the end of the first world war saw the end of the western empires the russian. said the seeds of it eventually did decades later we just had the collapse of the russian empire one cannot say that that was necessarily part of the same process that when

they were in the eighty's nelson mandela who was supported by the soviet union and himself was a by western governments the united states the united kingdom up until he succeeded and then suddenly he's become you know the hero rather that's the whole point that's the whole point it's not just about the soviet union it's about ideology and that is the biggest of that political transformation you can use revolution you can use whatever you choose but the fact of the matter is the rest of the century or almost the rest of the century was defined by the the ideology that eventually took power in russia there is absolutely no doubt russian revolution played a role in the major role that went the century history and most of that the influence sports. maybe not on russia itself but on the wall and in general definitely positive but what i think is important and what i think is not discussed in russia and in the west we see so traits of this revolution the warst was

very revealing themselves very clearly in the west right now what destruction of morning means more polarization of science and the mood the controlling speech control. in speech. the man you're all finding spice not only foreign spies but people who don't fit a certain ideology at home so these are scary things if you ask me about the most negative aspects of the russian revolution i can refer you to the more than west to the united states and the e.u. and you will see a lot of them talking about their revolution as a whole you know i think we can agree on something i will suggest to an image you know the russian revolution was like an edit front in the dark room that three fourths of us three wise men try to touch you know if been blind to describe one of them touch the leg and said or with different eyes like

a cord on the one touch the trunk and said it is more flexible the third one touch the tail and said it's like a rope so if you ask me about the russian revolution was it a tragedy for russia with millions of people dead that dramatic fall in living standards for the majority a huge majority of the population will say yes and the living standards were pretty low absolutely absolutely then you ask me it was it a popular uprising with people basically supporting the bolsheviks during that civil war orbiting for their own government and not. a position with the west yes was it the advantage that positively influence the western countries that that kind of encourages them to introduce their social safety net books yet workers' rights and women's rights isn't a literacy for it's like an elephant where you kind of positive things and negative lines but the negative ones are no evidence in the you know. you know what i was trained as a historian one always has the in

a way for this they weave in the sense of historical inevitability but why did the bolsheviks when meet there were more than one revolution that year ok they were different trends they were overlapping simultaneously why did they win was it just violence not to fix one for greece it's firstly to have pop. support secondly because of lead in lead in leadership and certainly because the revolutionary events took place in the context of the first world war i'm talking about the bolsheviks and ninety seventy they were the antiwar party they would have peace party that was enormously important to the pope to popularity they often have to remember of course is that when they seize power in russia they don't see themselves as just being involved in a russian revolution they see their action is part of the broader world revolution they see the russian revolution see leading to a global revolution so from the bullshit point of view. the whole future of humanity was extatic in their actions in russia so mark what role because you are all saying this is very idealistic it was very painful it was very very costly but

we ended up with. just a project that was the civil war and the foreign intervention that followed that's what went wrong and that's why and when that's the context in which the revolution begins to degenerate in which bolshevism which was a kind of popular revolution or move movement begins to take all these kind of bureaucratic forward terran repressive features which becoming bad in the soviet union so extended it became betting that it is this is a civil war it's a very important road to supply foreign intervention by western capitalist states trying to strangle i want to talk and to the causes of the bolshevik success just a little bit i agree completely with what jeffrey said especially the. anti-war party aspect of bolsheviks when the grand scheme in the provisional government save power after the february right allusion that preceded the bolshevik revolution they wanted to continue the war this war that many russians russia had already suffered

some six million casualties to the point the country was suffering from famine they were exhausted they couldn't understand why they were fighting what they saw as an imperialist war between a paralysed european powers they wanted out another thing the bolsheviks were incredibly disciplined as a party they understood power they. knew how to take control of railroad stations telegraph stations they understood the nodes of power and communication to make society work and how to take their photos they were. opposed to each other as well and they had to send a sense of unity to the third thing i would say is they had the support of the military and this was crucial particularly the navy. defections from the military at this point where thirty four thousand a month and they were flocking to the bolsheviks because the bolsheviks were promising the end of the war and they supported the bolsheviks all through the february revolution up until the culmination with the october revolution and

without that crucial military support i'm not talking officers i'm talking the rank and file soldiers particularly in the navy the kronstadt sailors the aurora and so on they were crucial to to being able to take power on the streets and whole government building. is the ideology is violence and bedded in the ideology or is just the political tool to make to keep to maintain power because he you know i think they're completely entrancing there's is an idealistic movement a lot of things that you know that we heard in the one thousand century in the socialist labor movement here but once it comes to pass when you come to power you don't want to let it go and you have to you know for the good of the people or the good of the party or the good of the ideology and i think that's also a group of civil war but once once they had a foothold they would do anything it took to keep it well i would say the violence is akin to all ready to go i go it just including no liberalism or knowledge and it

really was a dream i greatly agreed and the mechanism of depression is very simple with radical ideologies we're. right on the foot step towards happiness for the whole world and who is preventing us from. and it just two million people in donbass smash them you know these ever whites in syria. kill them this is their attitude over the west and that was the attitude of the bolsheviks not from the very beginning you know i think it's a very important question why the bolsheviks came to power two reasons first the fabric evolution you know now in russia we don't separate these two things well those are both violent revolution not about the fabric top and we're going to tell right we're going to talk about that i think it's right because without february there will be no work call but what happened in february was that a bunch of liberal revolutionaries came to power and revealed themselves absolutely unfit to govern we have very similar people now oppose input and they were very

good at propaganda western supported propaganda against that sort of happiness yet ninety percent of the russian population in fabry nine hundred seventeen were convinced that transporting slept with the empress that he was a german agent that she was a traitor all these norms. break for you the big news of the revolution the good point mindfreak you have said was much more important because if you talk about the economic situation the economic situation in fabric one hundred seventeen was not germane to the region people were eating i have a better way to go to your english hearing what we're after our break we'll continue our discussion of the russian revolution staying with our.

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this is new orleans itself and the best place in the world. what politicians to do something to. put themselves on the line to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president i'm sure. someone wanted. to go on to be for us was like before three in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters in my house. first city. welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peterbilt remind you we're discussing the russian revolution one hundred years on.

ok david go ahead and finish it people saw the first reason why water is king was the inability of liberals to govern after every nineteen seventeen and the second reason was that when the civil war really broke out more store that saudis generals russian pederasts the took the side of the rats this is something that is not often mentioned but there was in this one of the protection of the state the people because it certainly could not be an ideology i think i can give you a very good personal example. the famous general who defeated the austrians in the first world war when the army officers asked him i think see one it would show we do you know there is a civil war going on he said going to come and go all russia states serve the government that we have the reds because there are otherwise years without winning this from abroad they are not able to go and they want to return to them some street alternately he'd done it years old nature of death for twenty years in one

thousand twenty six haven't written a book which was written by a patriot and a morning kissed but in which he praised cruelty ok well i don't want to going to translate ok jeffrey i want to ask you something you know because i think as with something whatever you are series i live here. and you know this is the hundredth anniversary. not much excitement i don't hear a lot of conversation certainly academics and pundits and commentators but on the whole it's not a big deal there's a lot of ambivalence but i think there's probably more discussion going on in. about the revolution the than you might imagine. russian public opinion is divided about the revolutions that you know there's some people who are population picks it was on the whole no bad thing fifty six percent ok and the other half or whatever it's forty four percent very hard i thought i would want to know where to go i mean

i wouldn't describe then if i don't know your as a russian how do you feel about it because i have serving studied it i have to say have extreme ambivalence to it and i think that's the word the problem is that the universe sorry it unleashed a lot of more passions in the west than in russia as i know it is why that's what i know that inspections are completely misguided. compared to the tsar and said that he doesn't want to celebrate this interior because he is afraid of sharing the fate of nicholas. this is to margaret. is that right now the west reminds me of the times of the third international with the idea that we can't have the broke up that is only in the united states and the you would have to spread it all with a walk or we would be smashed that's a completely bolshevist idea great the destruction of more humans. looking at history of these viewpoint and saying that these guys have all the slave all know that the guy was a racist it's the same thing what we should be one thing we're going to. go into

any city and town in this country you're still probably going to find a statue of lenin they're still out there you know more about it's nice what. history we already heard that was the civil war was the imbedded in the ideology that tell a tarion strain. that culminated in stone because the great argument is that we've already heard about. it in the could have been different variants different paths i'm not convinced of that i think it's a very totalitarian ideology. i'm not a big fan of the word totalitarian i think that itself is an ideology that was created in the west in the wake of the world war two to try to equate fascism and communism which i believe is a false equation i think he wrote this. i think. we have to remember that the soviet union was was born not only in internal struggle but it

was from the moment of its creation it was attacked by drama can under siege it wasn't this is left out of a lot of western history books that in one thousand nine hundred eighteen the western powers and japan. most european countries the united states they invaded the nost and soviet union in the middle of the civil war to try to strangle the bullet in the cradle integrated i mean we're talking one little incident that you know just in the past few years been recognized by the british press the guardian and others churchill was a military commander of the british expeditionary force he used chemical weapons on russian pounds and that attack from outside helped solidify the support of the russian people with the threats with the reds the bolsheviks and help there was a siege mentality there was a paranoia that there in the soviet union but with good reason but perhaps like

a question we posed a recent challenge you know the policy challenges. there were purges they were heard you know people. do you know that the wisdom of nine hundred seventy eight is not the same as the post them printed said because of the civil war and because of the the seeds of the sea this is the historical argument you know is it still for terrorism totalitarianism of posters and hair and its ideology as well conservationists it's personalities or as a result of peace or cold circumstances. my view is that it's shaped by that the circumstances the guy but you have a question about about some power if he was never just a father for her own sake it was about father some power and the pursuit of utopia and it's really important to understand you know the radical utopian of both revolution and all. the saudi approach and. you say that was a dangerous goal to have utopia so i think that that's one of.

the negative that is one less it's. you know idealism it's not practical politics revolutions do that you did to their children you know so so you have to be careful what you wish will but that's not to say. it is themselves you know the idea that it was done if you can inherently wrong with it one interesting things about the western coverage of the of the entrepreneur post story the predominant theme he's ok year there were all these negative consequences arising from the russian revolution. but actually the idea is that the revolution yes the spad the revolution remind rather than to try to can irrelevant to you know so-called neo liberal capitalism is experiencing such a crisis and there is a need to try and imagine alternatives imagine different futures to you know to different things you know the russian revolution the you know the sort of experience as a whole as well that's been measured by its neck and that probably explains why

russians are very very adverse to revolutions in real magic political changes let's talk about numbers of people today in today in russia fifty six percent of people regret the passing of the soviet union but only twelve percent would like to see it restored as it was in eastern europe and central eastern europe apart. a recent poll by the european bank of reconstruction and development says that over half some fifty four percent of people would like to see the return of a command economy and we've seen repeated polls and romania and hungary that say their lives were better off under the soviet system in the united states millennialists millennialists a majority of them something fifty one percent would prefer to leave any socialist or communist country when as this is you go and of the total us population thirty four percent would live rather live you know where he was going to. me it was when i was a graduate school at berkeley you know and i was going back and forth between communist

poland in berkeley and i read told people in poland that there are more communists in berkeley than the fall of poland here. they should they should we could send them back and we let them live in albania and united it was exactly so ok they don't know what they're talking about well i think that you ask a very important question was violence like in eight in and i thought well i want to see that any utopia and you're great if you. can spawn while look at pol pot i don't know is that you probably don't only pull port their idea to have something like like encouraging feminism in afghanistan that's an exploding for idea which has been realized or the right to realize it for twenty years their idea or ridiculous change in ukraine making it and email russia destroying all of the communist party in ukraine that's why you're here in saying you're absolutely having absolutes and extremism you need violence to make it

absolutely get them in a way in a way you know any change any dress we can agree that their russian revolution probably toward the west in the past more than a talk to the soviet russia so the west avoided the alcohol and mistakes but there are a few things. the russians fluent and we have a lot like immunized these are all ideas from the beginning for example let me give an example and the idea that a right could be made better was by his origin you know in the soviet union right doesn't are divided into proletarian ones and bush wants so now when russians hear about. the right thing even have a very skeptical way to do it and we see be a good writer who happens to be a woman to be good writer who happens to be god forbid in the world could learn something from. the environment or social there are certain. immunization. and one of them is that without any kind of reward you know rapidly running out of

time you know from one of the things i think is very interesting is during the cold war we had this captive nations concept in the west you know a lot of people don't understand how much the russians suffered during the revolution during the civil war during the second world war and you know in when one could make the argument that the entire breadth of the soviet union its culture it was culture was attacked and it was it was. destroyed destroyed in many ways i mean i'm thinking of the orthodox church ok a lot of people don't understand how much russian survived because of the pursuit of utopia in an ideology. that culture was destroyed but. an alternative was put in place yes i mean that was we're still here ok it was a return it was a reconstruction of culture a culture. which wasn't completely out of it which i. i i personally i don't believe in utopias and i don't think that communism is the

answer to day to the problems today but i personally don't want to live in a world where we stop fighting to create a better world that's a really good point and i want to just quote here you perhaps you'll recognize real quick if you just think it's time people no longer obsess over the accumulation with things we've got limited hunger want the need for possessions we've grown out of our infancy that's the famous communist explorer and commander john carr of the starship enterprise. we need star fleet in for a flag here gentlemen we've run out of time absolutely fascinating discussion i'll watch the extended version of our tease you tube channel many thanks to our guests here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time remember. her. plain. old

salts we all. see her boss let's. see a little. bit to all this is all the lists. lead . follow. the lead. cut. cut cut cut cut. cut cut cut cut. a batch or sudden passing i've only just learnt you worry yourself and taken your

last wrong turn. up to you as we all knew it would i tell you i'm sorry i could so i write these last words in hopes to put to rest these things that i never got off my chest. i remember when we first met my life turned on each fret. but then my feelings started to change you talked about war like it was a cave still some are fond of you those that didn't like to question are are. and i secretly promised to never be like it said one does not leave a few more the same as one enters the mind gets consumed with the death of this one height difference has to be challenged as there are no other takers. to blame that mainstream media has met its maker.

the. more the kids are in the was. in the middle. does should i'm concerned the judge then doesn't do is allegedly dealing with a single band on the course and in that other equal distances wasn't what he calls the status make up going on in condolence because we don't we don't see how in the real with that to those of moodiness is honestly does hold us at all to tell sitting on.

one else truths seem wrong why don't we all just don't hold. any. get to shape out just to become educated and in detroit because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. whenever you buy russian products. you're not just going to get some quality. or little bit of sleep as we.

look. at. this hour's headlines stories the last leg of donald trump's asian tourist sees the u.s. leader in the philippines where his visit has been met by violent protests. but you know. the group who are afraid of the u.s. president is again offering to help immediate in the region's conflicts such he don't use into this side of china sea disputes he looked closer at his arbitration efforts. also on the precipitated deal between russia and the kurdish military help bring dozens of children safely home from syria after their parents joined this limits. plus debate is sparked in france as officials propose to lower the age of consent to thirteen after a mother was acquitted the raping of the eleven year old.